HELP WANTED: Derived games

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Einar Saukas
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Einar Saukas » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:07 pm

StooB wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:46 pm
Einar Saukas wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:54 pm
Treble Champions or Treble Chance
Treble Chance doesn't exist. The review of "Treble Chance" in Sinclair User is referred to by E&J as the review of "Treble Champions" in their letter of complaint to Crash.

The tzx on the Treble Chance page is just a saved Treble Champions game into it's second season with the names changed.
Fixed, thanks!
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8BitAG
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by 8BitAG » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:19 pm

Einar Saukas wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:16 pm
I'm more inclined to split Crisis/White Door, for technical reasons. In the Door series, it would look better to list "White Door" instead of "Crisis at Christmas", but as a single entry there's no way to indicate that a certain game should not be listed by its original title. In a compilation, the screenshots are currently taken from "Crisis at Christmas" instead of "White Door", because there's no way to indicate that the version in a certain compilation looks more like a certain re-release instead of its original release.
The thing is... the screenshots are of White Door already, because it was still called Crisis at Christmas in the game, even when it was also referred to as White Door externally.

What *is* missing, is the original Crisis at Christmas as it appeared as a Sinclair User type-in. That doesn't seem to be in the archive.
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Juan F. Ramirez
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Juan F. Ramirez » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:13 pm

Einar Saukas wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:41 pm
jpablo wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:44 pm
Though it's not the same case, I was wondering if El Mundo Perdido could be split from People from Sirius by creating a new entry and using the new derived relation.

I've always thought that the current re-release relation falls a bit short, but it is essentially the same game anyway - certainly not a mod by any means!
According to these links below, it's the same game with different load screen and music. I'm not sure if it's worth it to add a separate entry?

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_mundo_ ... ideojuego)
http://computeremuzone.com/ficha.php?id=622
That's a curious case as I've always thought it was another spanish game by Topo.

But it was coded by two italians programmers, Spagnolo (program) & Villa (graphics) of US Gold for Your Sinclair.

Because of some commercial agreement (the owner of Topo was Erbe, the main distributor of british software in Spain, including US Gold) Topo published the game in Spain with another name, and, according to the spanish instructions, music by Gominolas (coded by Gonzalo Martín), loading screen by Javier Cano and artwork by the great Alfonso Azpiri.

So, to put it in a nutshell, it's basically the same game with minor differences.

My vote would go to have the entry stay as it is. It clears up who were the authors of the spanish re-release and which year of every release.

If the map of the spanish version is exactly the same as the original game (can anyone confirm it, please?) it would confirm my vote.

I would only add Alfonso Azpiri as the author of the Topo re-release cover as there's no info about the artist.

As a funny/curious note, 'Spagnolo' is the italian for 'Spaniard'... enigmatic, isn't it?

*illuminati song*

:mrgreen:
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jpablo
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by jpablo » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:05 pm

Considering the definition of derived game that you provided later, it simply doesn't fit. Please just forget about it - it was just a wild idea!

Of course, you and @Juan F. Ramirez are absolutely right about the fact that changes in the Spanish re-release were merely cosmetic (music, loading screen, ...). It's just that the entry credits are somewhat inaccurate in their current setup - but that's probably as far as we can go for now.
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Einar Saukas
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Einar Saukas » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:19 pm

Einar Saukas wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:16 pm
I blame myself for not posting recently the ZXDB roadmap that I have in mind. My apologies! I will rectify this situation soon.
I have just posted the ZXDB roadmap, as promised. Take a look here.
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StooB
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by StooB » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:37 am

Einar Saukas wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:19 pm
I have just posted the ZXDB roadmap, as promised. Take a look here.
Isn't there some overlap between the planned support for multiple "editions" and derived "versions"? It doesn't make sense for titles like Uridium+ and 128 enhanced versions like Tau Ceti Special Edition to have separate entries as most of the information and magazine references on the original release are still relevant. The result for the end-user is lots of barely populated pages.
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8BitAG
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by 8BitAG » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:59 am

StooB wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:37 am
Isn't there some overlap between the planned support for multiple "editions" and derived "versions"? It doesn't make sense for titles like Uridium+ and 128 enhanced versions like Tau Ceti Special Edition to have separate entries as most of the information and magazine references on the original release are still relevant. The result for the end-user is lots of barely populated pages.
That's certainly the case for text adventures where there are 48K and expanded 128K releases for some games.

Perhaps the distinction should be if they had a separate, discrete release, after a period of time has passed?

This would make more sense, and would give a reason why Microfair Madness, which had a release in 48K and greatly expanded 128K version at the same time, has a single entry...
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=6682

Whereas, Methyhel...
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=6678

and Methyhel - The Special Edition, a similarly expanded 128K version, which had a later separate release... by a different publisher...
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=6679
...has a separate entry.

There are certainly historical reasons why I wouldn't combine those last two.

I think clearing up and firming up the "rules" would help going forward, for new additions, even if some of the existing entries are kept as they are for now.
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StooB
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by StooB » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:48 pm

8BitAG wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:59 am
Perhaps the distinction should be if they had a separate, discrete release, after a period of time has passed?

This would make more sense, and would give a reason why Microfair Madness, which had a release in 48K and greatly expanded 128K version at the same time, has a single entry...
The problem with that is that there was a glut of 128 versions of older games, like The Rocky Horror Show, Ghostbusters and Lode Runner, that came out in 1986 which would all have unnecessary separate entries.
8BitAG wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:59 am
Whereas, Methyhel...
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=6678

and Methyhel - The Special Edition, a similarly expanded 128K version, which had a later separate release... by a different publisher...
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=6679
...has a separate entry.

There are certainly historical reasons why I wouldn't combine those last two.
I'd disagree with that too! In fact, I'd go as far as combining the original Quilled version, with the 48K and 128K PAWed versions - they are all just different versions of the same game. It might be nice to separate them for "historical reasons", but there's absolutely no benefit to the viewer from doing that.
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8BitAG
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by 8BitAG » Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:10 pm

StooB wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:48 pm
I'd disagree with that too! In fact, I'd go as far as combining the original Quilled version, with the 48K and 128K PAWed versions - they are all just different versions of the same game. It might be nice to separate them for "historical reasons", but there's absolutely no benefit to the viewer from doing that.
That's an interesting argument, in terms of where you would draw the line.

I would argue that Nythyhel and Methyhel are distinct games.

The Quilled version not only has a different title, it differs quite substantially in text and puzzles, and it is running on a completely different engine from different source code. It is a completely rewritten version. It also links to ports on other formats.

Perhaps that isn't obvious when you just look at the game. Or perhaps, as you say, you don't think those facts are relevant. It is, perhaps, worth noting that both Nythyhel and Methyhel were being sold at the exact same point in time by different publishers, at one point.

If you're going to combine Nythyhel and Methyhel, then why not combine, say Football Director, Football Director II and Football Director 2: Player Super League?

Which brings us back to what are the criteria for a separate entry? A different title? A different publisher? A visual upgrade? Extra content? Substantial extra content? A technical code upgrade? Or a combination of some of those criteria? Or just whether we "feel" they deserve a separate entry?

It's a hard call. The previous "rules" seemed to be quite fuzzy and open to interpretation. Perhaps that is the best we can get?
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by StooB » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:16 pm

8BitAG wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:10 pm
That's an interesting argument, in terms of where you would draw the line.

I would argue that Nythyhel and Methyhel are distinct games.

The Quilled version not only has a different title, it differs quite substantially in text and puzzles, and it is running on a completely different engine from different source code. It is a completely rewritten version. It also links to ports on other formats.
Well, as you bring up ports on other formats, isn't it common for them to be completely different across platforms? They have different code, graphics, levels, even different perspectives but nobody says they're different games, just different versions of the same game.
8BitAG wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:10 pm
why not combine, say Football Director, Football Director II and Football Director: 2 Player Super League?
Because these are more clearly distinct by being "original", "2 player version" and "sequel", rather than "original", "re-written version", and "bigger re-written version"?
8BitAG wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:10 pm
Which brings us back to what are the criteria for a separate entry? A different title? A different publisher? A visual upgrade? Extra content? Substantial extra content? A technical code upgrade? Or a combination of some of those criteria? Or just whether we "feel" they deserve a separate entry?
None of the above! All those differences are reasons why titles should be combined - so those differences can be clearly highlighted rather making the user click through multiple similar pages to find out.
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