"not a Spectrum game"

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Einar Saukas
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"not a Spectrum game"

Post by Einar Saukas »

Martijn's WoS included quite a few Infocom adventures, that were imported into ZXDB together with everything else. Although these adventures were not developed for the ZX-Spectrum, most of them can be played in the ZX-Spectrum +3 using either Locomotive's Spectrum CP/M Plus or John Elliott's ZXZVM. I guess that's the reason Martijn decided to add them to the archive anyway.

A long list of adventure titles that can be played using ZXZVM can be seen here.

And a short list of CP/M titles that work with Spectrum CP/M Plus can be seen here.

In theory, the list of CP/M titles would be much longer. However this method is only reasonably playable for text adventures really... There was an article published back in 1989 about it here.

You will notice a few games work either way...

The interesting part is, Martijn also included a few other titles not marked as either ZXZVM or CP/M. They are simply marked as "not a Spectrum game":

Beyond Zork
Bureaucracy
Elvira - Mistress of the Dark
Elvira - The Arcade Game
Elvira 2 - The Jaws of Cerberus
A Mind Forever Voyaging
Nord and Bert Couldn't Make Head or Tail of It
Sir Fred - The Legend
Trinity
Ultima 1
Ultima 3 - Exodus
Ultima 4 - Quest of the Avatar
Ultima 5 - Warriors of Destiny
Ultima 6 - The False Prophet
Ultima 7 - The Black Gate
Ultima Underworld - The Stygian Abyss
Wizardry
Wizardry 5 - Heart of the Maelstrom
Wizardry 6 - Bane of the Cosmic Forge
Worlds of Ultima: Martian Dreams
Worlds of Ultima: Savage Empire
Zork Zero - The Revenge of Megaboz

Does anyone know if these games actually work in a ZX-Spectrum +3 using either Spectrum CP/M Plus or ZXZVM. Or perhaps any other way?
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by 8BitAG »

The Ultima games aren't CP/M or Z-machine, so no.

Similarly the Elvira games aren't text adventures. Or Sir Fred. Or the Wizardry series.

Zork Zero is Z-Code 6... I don't think ZXZVM runs that version.

The remaining Infocoms... maybe. They weren't released for CPC/PCW, so there wouldn't have been an easily accessibly version of the games to play back in the day on +3.
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by Ralf »

I believe Martijn kept in database entries for games which:

1) were released for Zx Spectrum
2) were planned to be released for Zx Spectrum (Great Giana Sisters, Toki etc.)

"Planned to be released" in practice means we need some press news or other reliable info about it.

I suppose at some moment Martijn believed that there were plans to release Ultima, Wizardry or Elvira games for
Spectrum. Then he changed his mind but instead of deleting the entries he left the comment.
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by StooB »

Ralf wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:02 am I believe Martijn kept in database entries for games which:

1) were released for Zx Spectrum
2) were planned to be released for Zx Spectrum (Great Giana Sisters, Toki etc.)

"Planned to be released" in practice means we need some press news or other reliable info about it.

I suppose at some moment Martijn believed that there were plans to release Ultima, Wizardry or Elvira games for
Spectrum. Then he changed his mind but instead of deleting the entries he left the comment.
That doesn't make any sense! He created these entries in the mid to late 1990's when there was 0% chance of those games ever being released for the Spectrum.
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by Ersh »

I'm pretty sure Ralf meant that they were planned to be released "back in the day", like he said there might've been a mention in a magazine or the like.
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by StooB »

Ersh wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:30 am I'm pretty sure Ralf meant that they were planned to be released "back in the day", like he said there might've been a mention in a magazine or the like.
There were no plans to release any these games on the Spectrum - to even suggest it is ridiculous!

All these entries look to have been created simply because they had SPOT/SPEX entries from the multi-format magazines.
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by Ersh »

StooB wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:56 am There were no plans to release any these games on the Spectrum - to even suggest it is ridiculous!

All these entries look to have been created simply because they had SPOT/SPEX entries from the multi-format magazines.
That's probably true. Also I should've said "they might have been planned" not "were planned".
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by catmeows »

Also, isn't there "inspired by/clone of" tag ? That could explain some of non-zx entries.
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by Alessandro »

Almost all of the Infocom adventures - those compatible with Z-Machine versions 3, 4, 5 and 8 to be precise - can be converted to the +3 disk format. Owners of a DivIDE with ResiDOS can also run them. There are some limitations however, e.g. the UNDO command is not implemented due to memory restrictions. However, as it was already said, they were not planned specifically for for the Spectrum.

I covered the issue in detail for the GamesArk.it portal almost six years ago. The article (in Italian) is here.
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by Ralf »

There were no plans to release any these games on the Spectrum - to even suggest it is ridiculous!
What's so ridiculous about making a Spectrum port of a game existing for C64?

Did you know for example that versions of Pirates (https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=24363)or Wings of Fury (https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=28047) were "planned" for Spectrum? Whatever "planned" means.

I don't insist that it's the case of mentioned games. But it could be as well. WOS database is old, coming yet from the 90s where you couldn't just
google things. It can contain some weird stuff which went there for whatever reason. And nobody remembers the details anymore.
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by StooB »

Ralf wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:14 pm
There were no plans to release any these games on the Spectrum - to even suggest it is ridiculous!
What's so ridiculous about making a Spectrum port of a game existing for C64?

Did you know for example that versions of Pirates (https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=24363)or Wings of Fury (https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=28047) were "planned" for Spectrum? Whatever "planned" means..
Both of those fit on cassette though. How can you port a disk-only C64 game to the Spectrum if they couldn't even make a C64 tape version?
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by beanz »

StooB wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:14 pm Both of those fit on cassette though. How can you port a disk-only C64 game to the Spectrum if they couldn't even make a C64 tape version?
Multi load, skillful coding, "cut down" version...they managed to get Carrier Command a 16bit 1mb+ game on the speccy 128k. Not to mention Gunship, Stealth fighter etc etc, all much larger 16bit disk based games.
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by Einar Saukas »

Alessandro wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:47 pm Almost all of the Infocom adventures - those compatible with Z-Machine versions 3, 4, 5 and 8 to be precise - can be converted to the +3 disk format. Owners of a DivIDE with ResiDOS can also run them. There are some limitations however, e.g. the UNDO command is not implemented due to memory restrictions. However, as it was already said, they were not planned specifically for for the Spectrum.

I covered the issue in detail for the GamesArk.it portal almost six years ago. The article (in Italian) is here.
That's exactly the information I needed. Thank you!

I have added a link to your article in ZXDB, and the other titles you mentioned in your article were also added to the ZXZVM list.

You mentioned that you managed to produce playable +3 disk files for several titles. We already have some of them (in format DSK), but the following titles are still missing:

Beyond Zork
Bureaucracy
A Mind Forever Voyaging
Nord and Bert Couldn't Make Head or Tail of It
Trinity
Zork
Zork II
Zork III

Whenever you have some free time, could you please recreate these +3 disk files and send them to us? Thanks!
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by StooB »

beanz wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:12 pm
Multi load, skillful coding, "cut down" version...they managed to get Carrier Command a 16bit 1mb+ game on the speccy 128k. Not to mention Gunship, Stealth fighter etc etc, all much larger 16bit disk based games.
It's not an issue of getting a bigger 16-bit game into an 8-bit. The problem is that these games are designed for playing from disk. Ultima needed to access 140k of data in 1981 before the Spectrum even existed. If it was realistic to produce a cassette-based version then they'd have done it for the Apple ii or the Atari 8-bit, or the C64.
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by beanz »

StooB wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:40 am
beanz wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:12 pm
Multi load, skillful coding, "cut down" version...they managed to get Carrier Command a 16bit 1mb+ game on the speccy 128k. Not to mention Gunship, Stealth fighter etc etc, all much larger 16bit disk based games.
It's not an issue of getting a bigger 16-bit game into an 8-bit. The problem is that these games are designed for playing from disk. Ultima needed to access 140k of data in 1981 before the Spectrum even existed. If it was realistic to produce a cassette-based version then they'd have done it for the Apple ii or the Atari 8-bit, or the C64.
As were gunship and Stealth Fighter...again amongst many others, and again they were still converted to the speccy. How they were originally designed for the original platform doesn't prevent them from being reworked to work on a "lesser" system...as demonstrated by the far larger 16 bit disk based games.

Tape games were not really a thing in the US (on systems like the C64), so the fact companies like Infocom etc may not have produced a tape version doesn't mean it wasn't possible, it means the US market (infocom being a US company) didn't justify a tape version.

That leisure suit larry point and click that recently came out for the speccy is another great example of what is possible.
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by 8BitAG »

I think it's a case of just going through the magazine references appended to the games and checking none of them relate to the Spectrum. If there are zero Spectrum references then the game should be deleted from ZXZB.

Some *do* have ZX Spectrum related references...

For example...

Elvira - Mistress of the Dark...
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/mag.php ... 8&page=125

(may be a mistake by PR or the magazine... or just an over-ambitious publisher... but it says SPECTRUM there)

Presumably the Ultima games got added because of this throwaway line "Wherever possible we'll be converting them to the Spectrum as well..."
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/mag.php ... 839&page=5
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by Ralf »

Good spot!

So my intuition was good, there are some mentions in mags (correct or not, it's another issue) that these games were "planned" or maybe better to say "considered" for Spectrum.

Of course it's database maintainer's decision if we keep game entries based on such weak evidence or not. And yes, we can be sure here that they weren't made for Spectrum after all ;)
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by Alessandro »

Hi Einar, I just sent you the files you asked me for. I made them readable with ZXZVM 1.12 and modified the ZXZVM.BAS program so that it automatically loads the story file on the disk. I also made the disks bootable from the +3 start menu.
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by Einar Saukas »

8BitAG wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:52 pm I think it's a case of just going through the magazine references appended to the games and checking none of them relate to the Spectrum. If there are zero Spectrum references then the game should be deleted from ZXZB.

Some *do* have ZX Spectrum related references...

For example...

Elvira - Mistress of the Dark...
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/mag.php ... 8&page=125

(may be a mistake by PR or the magazine... or just an over-ambitious publisher... but it says SPECTRUM there)

Presumably the Ultima games got added because of this throwaway line "Wherever possible we'll be converting them to the Spectrum as well..."
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/mag.php ... 839&page=5
Makes sense! These references indicate some of them were once considered for the Spectrum, but never released. That's similar to other never released games in the database.

Thanks!
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by Einar Saukas »

Alessandro wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:58 pm Hi Einar, I just sent you the files you asked me for. I made them readable with ZXZVM 1.12 and modified the ZXZVM.BAS program so that it automatically loads the story file on the disk. I also made the disks bootable from the +3 start menu.
Awesome! Thank you very much!!!
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by Alessandro »

Einar Saukas wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:29 pm Awesome! Thank you very much!!!
You are welcome :D

I also noticed that the archive hosts the old 1.03 version of ZXZVM. It would be the case to replace it.
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Re: "not a Spectrum game"

Post by Einar Saukas »

Good point! I will add it in the next ZXDB update.
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