Which games really pushed the Speccy?

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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by ZXDunny »

Pegaz wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:46 pm btw, has anyone already mentioned Knight Lore?
He always has to be on the list, when we talk about this topic.
Did Knightlore really push the Spectrum hardware? I mean, really? No, it did not. It pushed back the boundaries of what was considered possible, yes, but games like HoH and Batman came later that expanded the genre massively - hence proving that KL did not push anything anywhere.

It only really deserves an accolade for being the first of its type, nothing more than that.
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by zxbruno »

As far as graphics, and it looks like they haven't been mentioned in this topic yet: Savage, Extreme, Dandare 3
As far as blowing people away: Thanatos?

I thought Voice Chess was pretty impressive, but I know I'm alone on that one. :) I was easily impressed back in the day I even liked Final Fight.
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by Pegaz »

ZXDunny wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:39 pm
Pegaz wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:46 pm btw, has anyone already mentioned Knight Lore?
He always has to be on the list, when we talk about this topic.
Did Knightlore really push the Spectrum hardware? I mean, really? No, it did not. It pushed back the boundaries of what was considered possible, yes, but games like HoH and Batman came later that expanded the genre massively - hence proving that KL did not push anything anywhere.

It only really deserves an accolade for being the first of its type, nothing more than that.
Yes, I think it definitely is, especially at the time of the release.
Making such a game in 1983 or four years later is not the same thing.
Does "pushed to the limits" means, that we just need to list titles from the late Spectrum period, when the games were technically superior?
If we look at it that way, then freescape games are at the top of each list, because they have brought a full solid 3d world in first person.
I think that all the circumstances need to be considered and taking all this into account, KL cant be ignored, in any way...
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by Ast A. Moore »

ZXDunny wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:39 pm It only really deserves an accolade for being the first of its type, nothing more than that.
Well, I agree that there’s an inherent ambiguity in the way the title of the thread is phrased. But then, how do we define “pushing the limits” in this context? Knight Lore, Rex, and a great many other visually impressive titles used off-screen buffering; their frame rates dropped as more objects moved in a scene. Indeed, they weren’t really pushing the Speccy in any technical sense of the word. Should we then only count games that drew directly to the screen? Limit those even further to only include the titles that ran at a steady 50 fps? These would be objective criteria, but they’d hardly measure the actual quality or novelty or impact of a game.

I think it’s safe to broaden the criteria to include the more subjective “blew my socks off when I first saw it” definition of “pushing the limits.”
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by ZXDunny »

Surely that was pushing the limits of what the public expected, not what the Speccy was capable of. After all, the Speccy was capable of running Freescape games as soon as the 48kb version was released, and it was certainly capable of running games with multicolour engines that we have today. The fact that nobody really bothered to push the limits back when KL was released doesn't mean that KL actually did that.

After all, we're almost at the edge of what an unenhanced Speccy can do right now - I doubt we're going to see Quake with full texturing at 50fps now, are we?

So no, KL was... possibly... innovative (isometric 3D was nothing new, and I recall being pretty unimpressed when it came out) but nothing more than that.
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by Ast A. Moore »

ZXDunny wrote: Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:46 pm Surely that was pushing the limits of what the public expected, not what the Speccy was capable of. . . . The fact that nobody really bothered to push the limits back when KL was released doesn't mean that KL actually did that.

After all, we're almost at the edge of what an unenhanced Speccy can do right now . . .

So no, KL was... possibly... innovative . . . but nothing more than that.
Okay, I think you need to clarify your standpoint then, because from where I’m standing, you seem to be contradicting yourself. Unless, of course, you specifically argue that Knight Lore was not impressive. Which circles us back to the point I made in my previous post: How exactly do we judge impressiveness or “pushing the limits”?

Was Tim Follin’s music pushing the limits of the beeper? According to your logic—no (again, forgive me if I misinterpret your reasoning), because the Speccy was technically capable of that “as soon as the 48kb version was released.” Were Pete Cooke’s Micronaut One, Tau Ceti, or Academy pushing the limits of the Speccy then? No, because “3D was nothing new.” Perhaps Joffa Smith’s Cobra and Terra Cresta? Well, they were the first games to use the floating bus trick, but could hardly be called impressive on the gameplay or innovation front.

So, what games would you deem to be worthy of being the showcase for “pushing the limits of Speccy’s hardware”?
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by stupidget »

Ast A. Moore wrote: Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:15 pm So, what games would you deem to be worthy of being the showcase for “pushing the limits of Speccy’s hardware”?
Yep, that's what I was thinking when I made the post. Not so much as what games used all the available memory, be that 48 or 128, but something that pushed the h/w. Were there any games that had impressive graphics, impressive tunes that played constantly and was actually a good game.

Like Pegaz posted Dynamite Dan 2 was impressive.

I remember Road Blasters being almost unplayable on the 48k but when I played the 128k version the game played faster, there were good sound effects and some good tunes. So, does that mean that the 48k Road Blasters version was reaching the limit of what that machine could do?
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by ZXDunny »

Yes, games that pushed the hardware to do things it wasn't supposed to be able to do. KL was not one of these. But even if we were to include games that pushed people's expectations of what could be done then KL still won't make the grade - Isometric 3D was really nothing innovative by the time it came out, whereas Freescape was innovative; it hadn't been done before on the Spectrum to that degree.

3D Deathcase could be considered innovative, for example, if we're allowing games that pushed people's expectations to be classed as "pushing the Speccy" which they didn't.

Generally speaking then, I'd consider optimal code to be "pushing the speccy" to do more things per frame than was accepted. Achieving smooth scrolling or many colours onscreen or huge numbers of sprites.

And not KL, by any stretch.
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by 1024MAK »

Technically, you could only consider a game that used all available hardware resources (all RAM used, full screen used, colour used, all sound hardware used and absolutely no time delay loops, or HALT instructions) as pushing the Speccy to the limit. So then there would be separate classifications for the 16K, 48K, 128k and +2 grey, +2A and +2B, and finally the +3 (in it's own classification due to the disk drive).

But such a game using all available hardware resources, does not automatically mean it is any good...

So I think the more sensible definition (which will always be subjective) is to define it as which games appeared to push the Speccy to the limits compared to other games available at the time. Hence yes, some Ultimate titles may well be considered.

Of course, as programmers learn better ways to do things, both their own learning and learning from others, and as graphic artists and musicians got involved, so the quality improved. And competition further drove things. So in hindsight, earlier games maybe were no longer so impressive. But that does not mean that outstanding titles of the time should not be considered.

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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by 1024MAK »

ZXDunny wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:28 am Yes, games that pushed the hardware to do things it wasn't supposed to be able to do.
But no one ever defined what the hardware was supposed to be able to do apart from the memory size (ROM size, RAM size), screen size and resolution, CPU speed etc.
I don't believe Sinclair or the magazines at the time of release of any Spectrum model ever saying that games should be able to run at any specified value of FPS. Or have x number of sprites.

So the only way to decide will be subject to comparison against other games available at the time. And yes, this will be subjective.

When the first steam locomotive broke the 100 MPH 'limit', no one then said that the Rocket steam engine was rubbish. Same for when the HST 125 Intercity diesel trains set the world record for being the fastest ever diesel trains in the world. In between these events, there were many other trains/locomotives that were noteworthy at the time, because they were better than the current, at the time competition. But not necessarily due to speed alone.

The same applies to cars and other road transport... No one says that the Ford Model T is rubbish. Even though the cheapest production car available today beats it in nearly every way...

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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by Ralf »

For me it's obvious that Knight Lore pushed the limits. It pushed the limits as they were in 1984 when it was released.

By the way, Manic Miner pushed the limits of 1983 too ;) None of earlier games had so much sprites on screen or similar ingame music.
Nevertheless I remember reading that it has quite ineffective engine and actually with some improvements could run twice as faster. So what? If it ran twice as fast, it would be unplayable. It was good for its time and ahead of the competition.
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by stupidget »

I remember getting the Demo of Thunder Blade in Crash once and was incredibly impressed with what they'd managed to cram into the speccy:

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=5249
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by RMartins »

Since no one mentioned it yet, Renegade was a real game changer for fighting games.

And I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it yet, but Elite was also a breakthrough due to the depthness and sense of infinite space it provided.

Commando and R-Type, which were already mentioned, also brought a new level of gameplay to the speccy, with a faithful but functional Arcade port with all those enemies and bullets at the same time on screen and massive scrolling going on.
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by Juan F. Ramirez »

I of the Mask seems to be another candidate. Technically amazing by that year (1986) but boring as hell.

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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by PaddyC13 »

There were so many of what appeared at the time "firsts" in the 1980s. This was not just on the Spectrum but other machines as well. Most of us did not have the technical nous to determine if what was being done pushed the limits of the machine. For me, it was whether I went "wow". :-) A couple of examples, the spinning planets demo on the BBC Micro, The Ghostbusters theme/intro on the C64 and Tasword on the Spectrum. With hindsight, none of these pushed the hardware but I was impressed by them.

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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by beanz »

Football Manager was pretty impressive for a basic game...still as addictive today as it always was. I guess that was pushing the limits of a game written in basic.
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by stupidget »

I've just done a comparison between the 48k and 128k versions of Road Blasters. The 48k is painfully slow and almost unplayable and the sides of the road are empty where as the 128 version is at least twice as fast, has lines at the side of the road to give an idea of speed and obviously has better sound effect and is a single loader. So does this mean that the 48k version was pushing the machine to the limit?
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by ZXDunny »

stupidget wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:13 pm So does this mean that the 48k version was pushing the machine to the limit?
I dunno, compare it to 48k Chase HQ and see if it was, or if the coder was useless :D
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

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Ralf wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:15 am For me it's obvious that Knight Lore pushed the limits. It pushed the limits as they were in 1984 when it was released.

By the way, Manic Miner pushed the limits of 1983 too ;) None of earlier games had so much sprites on screen or similar ingame music.
Nevertheless I remember reading that it has quite ineffective engine and actually with some improvements could run twice as faster. So what? If it ran twice as fast, it would be unplayable. It was good for its time and ahead of the competition.
If its true, that the Stamper brothers withheld the game for about a year, though it was finished before Sabre Wulf and Underwurlde, then this means that the game was made in 1983, making it even more significant and definitely ahead of its time...

Regarding the importance of this game ... c64 users have been waiting for 34 years to get the proper KL port, which will be eventually finished, as well as Gunfright and Pentagram before.
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by AndyC »

ZXDunny wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:28 am Yes, games that pushed the hardware to do things it wasn't supposed to be able to do. KL was not one of these. But even if we were to include games that pushed people's expectations of what could be done then KL still won't make the grade - Isometric 3D was really nothing innovative by the time it came out, whereas Freescape was innovative; it hadn't been done before on the Spectrum to that degree.
I'm not a fan of Knightlore, but when it came out it certainly did raise the bar considerably in the overall quality of Spectrum games. Isometrics had been done, but not with the level of graphical finesse that Knightlore had. Indeed most games had to up there overall effort with graphics after Knightlore came out.

Now it looks dated, has clunky controls and massive gameplay flaws, but you have to look at it from a contempory point of view. If you don't then really the only things that come close to counting are some of the multicolor games of recent years, Freescape and maybe a Doom demo game. And it's entirely possible that you'll have to ditch those in a year or so when someone out-does them.
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by ZXDunny »

AndyC wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:44 pm
ZXDunny wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:28 am Yes, games that pushed the hardware to do things it wasn't supposed to be able to do. KL was not one of these. But even if we were to include games that pushed people's expectations of what could be done then KL still won't make the grade - Isometric 3D was really nothing innovative by the time it came out, whereas Freescape was innovative; it hadn't been done before on the Spectrum to that degree.
I'm not a fan of Knightlore, but when it came out it certainly did raise the bar considerably in the overall quality of Spectrum games. Isometrics had been done, but not with the level of graphical finesse that Knightlore had. Indeed most games had to up there overall effort with graphics after Knightlore came out.

Now it looks dated, has clunky controls and massive gameplay flaws, but you have to look at it from a contempory point of view. If you don't then really the only things that come close to counting are some of the multicolor games of recent years, Freescape and maybe a Doom demo game. And it's entirely possible that you'll have to ditch those in a year or so when someone out-does them.
I bought it when it came out - I was a massive Ultimate fan and after Atic Atac, Jet Pac, Sabre Wulf I felt they could do no wrong. I grabbed Knightlore and found it massively disappointing. Very sparse colour, awful gameplay and dull, dull, dull. I almost skipped Underwurlde the next time I was in town; I'm glad I didn't as it was a great return to form. I was however quite young (10 or 11 iirc) so I was probably not the target audience for KL unfortunately.

It wasn't until HoH that I got back into the isometric genre - and although again it was not particularly colourful, it did at least have a game in there.
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by Ersh »

.
Here's what Jon Ritman had to say about the game. (Taken from an interview here.)
"They gave me a copy of the game, I put it on and was just blown away. It was a Disney film you could play. It was just...great." The game was what many still today consider Ultimate's finest hour: Knight Lore. "I was just going 'how the f*** do they do that?'" smiles Ritman. "I didn't even understand how they made the graphics overlay on each other. Cleanly, and not in straight lines, in diagonals too. So I went home and started to try and work out how it was done, and work out a system that did it better."
No Knight Lore, no Batman, no Head over Heels. It paved the way for a sea of games in the same vein and to me that's at least pushing the envelope if not the hardware.

Not a big fan of the isometric games on the Speccy myself, The Great Escape being an exception.
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by Pegaz »

I cant believe Jon Ritman said this, for such a dull and disappointing game...
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by Juan F. Ramirez »

Pegaz wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:23 pm I cant believe Jon Ritman said this, for such a dull and disappointing game...
1000 lines, Eric!!!
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Re: Which games really pushed the Speccy?

Post by ZXDunny »

Pegaz wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:23 pm I cant believe Jon Ritman said this, for such a dull and disappointing game...
Me neither, but there you go.
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