ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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beanz
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by beanz »

Sokurah wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:49 pm
Bizzley wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:45 pmJust what exactly am I meant to play them on?
Well, there are about 400 boards out there after all. Perhaps not much use to you, but useful for the people that has a board.
Yep, 400 and change. The numbers were not fully reflected on the campaign. It only reflected those who specifically bought the board, not those who purchased a full next and then added the difference for a board too (like I did). It was mentioned back then there were 400+ boards made and shipped.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Bizzley wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:44 am
Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:29 am It sounds a lot like you're looking for a reason to be miffed.
But it is OK to hold and voice a different opinion towards some some aspects of the campaign, isn't it, or have I missed something else?
Nope that's fine...but it might come across as an "I told you so" attitude rather than being constructive. I knew for example DURING the campaign they were never going to meet that shipping estimate...it was laughably naive (I work for an OEM and am fully aware how long it takes to bring new products to market etc). As such I didn't expect delivery of the finished unit anytime soon and that's why I got a board too...boards are easy to make and deliver etc.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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beanz wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:30 pm As such I didn't expect delivery of the finished unit anytime soon and that's why I got a board too...boards are easy to make and deliver etc.
Have you (or anyone else reading this) had any experience with plastic cases and keyboards, it would be interesting to know whether the estimated 18 months (max) it's taking to put the ready-built PCBs into a plastic box is par for the course or not.

The only experience similar to this I've had was when we were putting the old Spectrum Echosoft keyboard deal together. I know it took about half a dozen friends and family less than a month to put almost 10,000 units together from pre-assembled components but there were no instruction manuals, duplicated cassettes, inlays, interface PCBs cables or even plastic cases to put the PCBs in at the start of that month, they took about a week to source and then were delivered on a rolling basis. Dixons didn't want to hear that in a year's time everything would be better looking and cooler and the software would have more functions, they had told people they could have it for Christmas and that meant delivery to them in 4 weeks time. Of course corners were cut - I had to hack the software so I know they were! - but a date had been agreed and we did whatever we had to do to make sure they were delivered on time and of an acceptable quality.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Bizzley wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:05 pm
beanz wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:30 pm As such I didn't expect delivery of the finished unit anytime soon and that's why I got a board too...boards are easy to make and deliver etc.
Have you (or anyone else reading this) had any experience with plastic cases and keyboards, it would be interesting to know whether the estimated 18 months (max) it's taking to put the ready-built PCBs into a plastic box is par for the course or not.

The only experience similar to this I've had was when we were putting the old Spectrum Echosoft keyboard deal together. I know it took about half a dozen friends and family less than a month to put almost 10,000 units together from pre-assembled components but there were no instruction manuals, duplicated cassettes, inlays, interface PCBs cables or even plastic cases to put the PCBs in at the start of that month, they took about a week to source and then were delivered on a rolling basis. Dixons didn't want to hear that in a year's time everything would be better looking and cooler and the software would have more functions, they had told people they could have it for Christmas and that meant delivery to them in 4 weeks time. Of course corners were cut - I had to hack the software so I know they were! - but a date had been agreed and we did whatever we had to do to make sure they were delivered on time and of an acceptable quality.
Yes, as I say I work for an OEM manufacturing power conditioning equipment that involves circuit boards, metal chassis, plastic chassis, from design to ordering parts to delivering the finished product etc.

You're simplifying the "ready PCB in a plastic box"...as the spectrum next case isn't a "plastic box". It's about as complicated as it gets as far as creating plastics from scratch goes...and on top of that finding someone willing to do a short run (which 3000+ is) at a reasonable price...aka a price that fits in with the $$ available. Sure you could find someone to do it faster if money was no object...but money is an object when you have a finite amount to work from.

As far as 18 months go it's a little long sure...but then these guys are not professional manufacturers...our products can take 6 months to a year on average from idea to deliverable product...we've been doing it for 30+ years...so 18 months for amateurs isn't bad at all.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Just to clarify, the 18 months I stated was from when the Next was due (Jan 2018) up to the stated maximum of June 30th 2019. The development date for the Next actually runs from May 2017 when the campaign closed making it slightly over an estimated two years. From your experience and what you say I'm beginning to think the vastly understated original delivery date had more to do with amateurs telling the backers what they wanted to hear rather than it being a realistic professional estimation. But that's all done now, we're on the clock and hopefully they will be doing their best to deliver it even before Q2 as they hope.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Bizzley wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:25 pmFrom your experience and what you say I'm beginning to think the vastly understated original delivery date had more to do with amateurs telling the backers what they wanted to hear rather than it being a realistic professional estimation.
Yep...or simply their naivety regarding the whole process.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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And still this drags on. As we now enter Q2 of the year comments by the developers that they will "try to ship it earlier than Q2" have to be placed firmly in the negative column. With the latest update confirming that a test keyboard has yet to be produced that meets expectations the clock is now running down on the promised delivery date of end Q2, June 30th. However, the update does state that a six week allowance was made in the initial date estimation for unforseen problems and that a Q2 delivery is still on the cards so we have 12 weeks to go before we find out how that compares to the "earlier than Q2" hope.

In the Kickstarter comments for this update a Paul Murphy has raised an interesting point, that the reason the keyboard has been delayed a month and is still not acceptable is solely down to the fact that the developers requested four "minor tweaks" to the already working keyboard resulting in delays to allow for retooling and production of (yet another) test unit. That these "minor tweaks" were never part of the original Rick Dickinson design and have been added as an afterthought - with seemingly no idea of the problems they would cause - is at best a case of 'doing it because we can' and at worst ignoring what Mr. Dickinson designed. So the keyboard was working four\five weeks ago and could have gone into production if it had just been left alone, the latest in a long list of delays caused by decisions to place cosmetic changes above practicalities.

Unfortunately Paul Murphy's comments are likely to elicit pretty much the same inults that another poster in the previous update received for the sin of not being 100% behind the project, being called a"Bell End" and a "F*** Knuckle" for daring to doubt. While all backers accept that crowd-funded projects like this are a gamble and that dates can shift because of unforseen problems you do have to worry when those delays are totally forseeable yet are still being implemented.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Pegaz »

I dont know if it will accomplish goal at the end of Q2 deadlines, but I really hope so.
What worries me a little bit, is the obedient mentality in most of the comments on next web page, who blindly support any delay and explanation.
I'm wondering for example, if there will be additional postal charges from England to worldwide destinations in case of no-deal Brexit?
I also wonder if the packaging and manual production is complete or not?
Or maybe it's time to become a true believer, as well as those who have sworn in Vega+ for years.
Today is the 1st of April, after all...
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Well, welcome to the development hell :evil:

And it's really hard to decide till which moment you should give your support to the developers and since which moment you are entitled to get angry at them and call them losers or scammers.

As for me I really prefer to stay away from these crowdfunding campains, it's healthier.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Pegaz wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:56 pm I'm wondering for example, if there will be additional postal charges from England to worldwide destinations in case of no-deal Brexit?
Seems like if there is those additional costs and responsibilities are on the shipper.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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beanz wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:51 pm
Pegaz wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:56 pm I'm wondering for example, if there will be additional postal charges from England to worldwide destinations in case of no-deal Brexit?
Seems like if there is those additional costs and responsibilities are on the shipper.
Seems like if there are additional costs the responsibility is on the shipper.

Fixed.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by AndyC »

One has to hope that the delays (and suggestions) are due to real problems that might have been unforeseen, such as responsiveness or real usability issues. It would be a very sad day indeed if this project also became another Vega+ debacle, and one I'm not entirely sure the scene could survive.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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AndyC wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:45 pm One has to hope that the delays (and suggestions) are due to real problems that might have been unforeseen, such as responsiveness or real usability issues.
If only that were the case. It's not my opinion that the keyboard was fully working and ready for mass production in February but the developers - "Long story short, this all means that now we’re ready to produce the keyboard, case and ship them over to get the Next assembled and sent to the backers."

But that apparently wasn't good enough since at that time the following "tweaks" were requested, seemingly on a whim:

The Enter key felt heavier to press than the other keys;
Four keys missed the tweak to remove a tiny injection bulge;
The connector ribbons had to be extended a bit and;
The screws inserts should be 3mm rather than 2.5mm


I've added my emphasis to each to try and point out the triviality of the changes requested. I for one could have lived with 2.5mm screws and tiny injection bulges on four keys.

Apparently the knock-on effect of requesting these changes was ignored, naively assuming that these changes would go 'live' in a major production run without first being formally signed off. I don't think this could be called unforseen by any definition of the word.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Bizzley wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:42 pm I've added my emphasis to each to try and point out the triviality of the changes requested. I for one could have lived with 2.5mm screws and tiny injection bulges on four keys.
This is possibly the one and only time a real case like this can be made for a spectrum. It's better to get the job done right if you can. However the main issue has been key responsiveness. There's no question it can be fixed up but the problem is the zx next project is tiny and is at the bottom of every supplier's to-do list. It can take weeks for a supplier to even look at a reported issue.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:27 am It can take weeks for a supplier to even look at a reported issue.
I absolutely agree with that. My POV though is that some of these reported "issues" are entirely down to the choice and hubris of the developers rather than necessary changes in order to turn a non-working product into a working one.

Case(!) in point. Slightly longer case screws and a slightly longer ribbon cable won't make the Next work better, they are there so that people who want to repeatedly open and close the case can do so more than they could before the change. It was always meant to be this way, it was designed to be this way, the original spec lengths were good enough but somebody decided that the delays (and costs!) necessary to redesign, retool and retest to allow for even more openings and closings was more important than actually delivering on time.

I think a Youtube video or two of that finished keyboard, the completed case, those super glossy keys, heck even one of the "almost there" prototypes that have been announced in the last few months would go down a treat. Nothing Hollywood, just a minute or two of footage so those of us who actually paid for it can get a hint or two of what our money has bought (sorry contributed.) Apart from a video from June last year showing the (now outdated and incorrectly coloured) case components that's it, there are more videos of people showing off their custom-created Next cases than there is of the official plastics.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Bizzley wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:46 pm
I think a Youtube video or two of that finished keyboard, the completed case, those super glossy keys, heck even one of the "almost there" prototypes that have been announced in the last few months would go down a treat. Nothing Hollywood, just a minute or two of footage so those of us who actually paid for it can get a hint or two of what our money has bought (sorry contributed.) Apart from a video from June last year showing the (now outdated and incorrectly coloured) case components that's it, there are more videos of people showing off their custom-created Next cases than there is of the official plastics.
Update 43 had photos of the "real thing", not sure what a video would add to that.

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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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beanz wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:59 pm Update 43 had photos of the "real thing", not sure what a video would add to that.
For starters we could see how it looked in real life rather than in carefully lit, posed and photographed shots. We could see if it still had those awful feet, the kind that always break on PC keyboards. We could see how things have changed in the last 8 weeks since those photos were posted. We could see how the shiny, sharp glossy keys actually looked after being handled (not well if the photo you reposted is anything to go by, just look at the scratches, marks, uneven top edge and hair visible on the Number 3 key.) We could see how well peripherals plugged in, get a better idea of the keyboard response, how easy the opening and closing of the case is going to be.

But perhaps more importantly we could actually see video of an "almost ready" case, keyboard and PCB assembled and working rather than just being told it does month after month.

That's some of what I think a video would add.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Alcoholics Anonymous »

If you are able to attend one of the retro events in the uk, you can get a chance to see an older version of the case in person. Jim has been going to almost all of them and has been bringing along a boxed, assembled, and functioning next using an earlier prototype case and is happy to explain what things needed fixing and why. Some people that have attended the shows have shared pictures and impressions on facebook. Not everyone can go of course but the next one he's attending is Play Manchester at the beginning of May. His prototype is a little worn now from being handled by hundreds of people but it's still (apparently) something to see.

There are still important things being worked on in the core, one of them you mentioned is the expansion bus and another is the pi interface for those getting a companion pi. Getting the majority of peripherals to work compatibly is resolved on paper only at this time. It's not a straightforward feat as many important peripherals only work on specific models of spectrums but the next is being constructed as a machine that can do all the spectrum models. It's also likely a separate level shifter thing will be recommended to plug into the expansion bus before peripherals and that could be used to resolve any issues with the physical mating of oddly shaped expansions.

Just to give an idea of some of the issues with peripherals:

* Legacy peripherals were only designed to work at 3.5MHz but the machine can run as fast as 14MHz. The speed is under the control of the user and can be changed at an time by pressing a function key (ps2 keyboard) or an M1 key (zx next keyboard or membrane). You don't want to limit the bus to 3.5MHz in case someone makes next specific peripherals so likely there has to be a mechanism to disable the expansion bus when the speed goes over some limit with the default limit being 3.5MHz.

* External peripherals can take the bottom 16k by asserting /romcs; devices like the if1 work this way. Since these devices can only operate at 3.5MHz, the machine will have to prevent the speed from rising above 3.5MHz while /romcs is asserted.

* Some devices monitor memory addresses throughout the 64k range. The currah uspeech is an example. It assumes it is attached to a 48k computer so it expects to see banks 5,2,0 all the time. How do you deal with that when your a 128k machine or you're a next with very flexible banking? The thinking is memory transactions should be disabled on the expansion bus when the standard banks 5,2,0 are not being accessed in their correct places in the memory map. This would be fore 48k peripherals only and 128k peripherals might expect something else so likely this behaviour would have to be configurable.

* Port conflicts with internal zx next devices have to be resolved. You don't want to turn everything off when the expansion bus is active though so likely internal devices have to have a way to be selectively switched off. Then if an internal device responds on a port, the io cycle is not propagated to the expansion bus.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Bizzley wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:27 pm
beanz wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:59 pm Update 43 had photos of the "real thing", not sure what a video would add to that.
For starters we could see how it looked in real life rather than in carefully lit, posed and photographed shots. We could see if it still had those awful feet, the kind that always break on PC keyboards. We could see how things have changed in the last 8 weeks since those photos were posted. We could see how the shiny, sharp glossy keys actually looked after being handled (not well if the photo you reposted is anything to go by, just look at the scratches, marks, uneven top edge and hair visible on the Number 3 key.) We could see how well peripherals plugged in, get a better idea of the keyboard response, how easy the opening and closing of the case is going to be.

But perhaps more importantly we could actually see video of an "almost ready" case, keyboard and PCB assembled and working rather than just being told it does month after month.

That's some of what I think a video would add.
Seems a bit OCD.

I'd expect all that would do is fuel a few "wow looks great" comments or "I don't like the way XXX does XXX"...neither of which is going to change much...and at this point change is the last thing we want anyway. lol
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Bizzley »

It's all immaterial anyway, shortly we'll know for certain about everything. Because sometime in the next 10 weeks time a completed, boxed, no problems fully manualled Next along with with a spanking new firmware and all those stretch goal games will be coming through my door as promised.

Won't it? :?
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Bizzley wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:41 pm It's all immaterial anyway, shortly we'll know for certain about everything. Because sometime in the next 10 weeks time a completed, boxed, no problems fully manualled Next along with with a spanking new firmware and all those stretch goal games will be coming through my door as promised.

Won't it? :?
Maybe...I don't see it shipping by end of 2nd quarter as they said...it's about 5 weeks on the boat/customs etc. Even if it shipped tomorrow that would only leave 4 weeks for getting everything else together, assembly, testing and so on, and that assumes SMS even have a window open to do it all, I'm sure they are not sitting around doing nothing till the NEXTs cases show up.

I still can't believe they haven't even go the manuals printed yet...I'll laugh if the nexts are ready but the damn manual isn't.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by redballoon »

It's less than 2 weeks now for the Manchester Play Expo and there will be a sizeable Spectrum Next presence there from the team (I think) and games being released on it. I'm not sure about hardware, but I expect some of that to be showcased, too. Now, I'm not part of them but will be there in an unofficial (I suppose!) capacity due to upcoming release of Melkhior's Mansion on the Next.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by R-Tape »

I'm still happy enough to wait, but that's easy for me to say because I don't have the time or ideas at the moment to know what to do with my Next when it does arrive.

But really, the Next has to be fully delivered this year...
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Alcoholics Anonymous »

beanz wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:06 pm I still can't believe they haven't even go the manuals printed yet...I'll laugh if the nexts are ready but the damn manual isn't.
The lead time is very short on the manuals. They won't be printed until just before they are needed to avoid having to pay storage costs.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:39 pm The lead time is very short on the manuals. They won't be printed until just before they are needed to avoid having to pay storage costs.
I've got a spare bedroom, and my attic is only half full, so if they need somewhere to store a few boxes of manuals until they're needed then I reckon I could do it for them for a fiver. Or a pint down the pub.
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