ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

[beanz]

I wouldn't take reported progress as a reliable indicator though, otherwise they'd have shipped four months ago as stated in the July update.

Nah, that was never going to happen...the last update detailed what is left to do, there isn't much left now. Back in July they still didn't have the keyboard figured out...they just completed that which was pretty much the last major step...it's really down to shipping parts from china times now.

..and lets remember the original plastics manufacturer backed out so they had to start over with the case.

This is why I got the board too...again anyone with any experience in manufacturing etc knows the original ship date was never going to happen.

Here's my year old Next!

[Dark]

I backed a cased Next and have kept an eye on the project and read through each update as they have come. The thought of never receiving the computer hasn’t occurred to me, as far as I can see the people delivering are still there and appear to be working on the project. Very much a contrast from the other Sinclair crowd funding project, where it was plain to see that no-one was actually working on anything other than stalling tactics in the hope it would all be forgotten about. Thankfully I didn’t back that one, but did watch it all unfold in the various facebook groups.

As for changes in the spec, I’ve never been that knowledgeable about computer hardware, so I haven’t had much of an opinion on it. I’m buying a Next just in order to have a modern Spectrum that I can go and play some of my old games on and relive a big part of my childhood. So I’ll never use it to whatever potential it may end up having, as I never did with my +2 back in the day, but I got many hours of enjoyment out of it, and I’m hoping to get a few more with the Next.

The fact though that the boards came out I see as a good indicator that the project is being faithfully worked on, even if not as quickly as everyone would have liked.

[toot_toot]

I think Bizzley makes some great points. I backed the cased Next kickstarter when it launched and the progress has been frustratingly disappointing, especially over the past few months.

I understand the risks that come with crowd funded campaigns, but the Next project has really hit home just how little project organisers/creators realise how difficult it is getting a hardware project released. First the board only option was delayed for a few months, which was fine, but then there was months of issues where board only users couldn't get it to work properly, it didn't work with their Spectrum case, it didn't work with their television. All of this for 400 units. Looking back it's obviously crazy to have done this - while making a few hundred hardcore users happy, they simply didn't have the resources to handle this.

But the real gripes I have with the project now is, as Bizzley has put it, every update seems to come with a new delay, with the promised fortnightly updates becoming more sporadic. When the delay is announced, my first thought is "you're telling me - eight months after the project was supposed to be released - that you weren't aware of like how to make the case/how to make the keyboard membrane/how to source materials/what sort of keys are going to use etc etc" Again, I understand that these are people where it's not their profession (I think that's showing now), but the lack of a transparent roadmap just hasn't helped.

Then in the last update, they did release a sort of project roadmap. Well a project status summary really. Now while there may have been a lot of items marked as done, but some of the "to-do" list is still worrying - especially the ones in bold.

Keyboard keys printing test (TO DO)
Final Keyboard backplate test injection (TO DO)
Final Keyboard assembly & Case fit test (TO DO)
Manual printing (TO DO)
Manual shipping to SMS (TO DO)
SD cards content copy as SMS (TO DO)
Case mass-plastic injection (TO DO)
Keyboard mass-plastic injection (TO DO)
Keyboard final assembly (TO DO)
Keyboard shipping to case production (TO DO)
Case & Keyboard shipping to SMS (TO DO)
Final Spectrum Next assembly (TO DO)
Shipping to backers (TO DO)

To be blunt, there is no way they're going to test the keyboard, mass produce and assemble 5000+ keyboards and cases by January. At the rate they're going, I'd be surprised if we saw it before April. But what was worrying with that last update is there was no indication at all of timescales - i.e. it being a roadmap with deadlines e.g. "We will have final keyboard assembly and case fit test done by November 30th. "

I know some people don't really care and think "well, it will be ready when it's ready" but I do find it annoying to get an update in July with the title "Production ahead, captain!" and the text "we’ve got two busy weeks packed with production updates, progress and a final test to go through." and signing off with "The testing membranes are now in production and will be ready on July 17th for final approval, the last hurdle between the project and the backers. Fingers crossed this is it, folks!"

Except here we are, 4 months later - and counting - and there's still significant work to be done as highlighted in the last update and with no end in sight.

I think that's why some backers are getting really annoyed now and maybe worrying if the Next is ever going to be released.

[1024MAK]

I think some of the above posts are taking things out of context. For anyone who wants to read the latest update in full, click here.

Getting a PCB made is easy compared to the design and production of a bespoke keyboard in a custom made case. More so at the quantity that is involved with this project (only 3000 cases and keyboards). So this was always going to be something that was likely to overrun. And when the original manufacturing company pulled out, the project team had to find another manufacturing company. Not easy when the margins are tight.

Mark

[beanz]

but then there was months of issues where board only users couldn't get it to work properly, it didn't work with their Spectrum case, it didn't work with their television.

Eh? It worked fine for me...and in my speccy case as the photo above shows...and TV problems were more down to the TVs I think than the next...or configuration issues..not the hardware...sure the firmware has and will continue to be tweaked...but that's pretty standard procedure for firmware, especially firmware for new hardware...bit unrealistic to expect it to be perfect on first release.

[Bizzley]

In my last post I said I wasn't aware of any other promised release dates for the Next, I missed this one.....

""we can now line things up and put forward the completion date of mid July. We’ll have our Nexts this Summer!"

People keep saying that the original manufacturing company pulled out and had to be replaced, yes it did, and this happened almost 9 months ago. The good news was that as of April the new case mould design was deemed to be great, invoices had been paid and production had indeed started and would be ready for plastic injection in 35 days. April 2018 also saw the completion of the keyboard membrane moulds, an adjustment was expected to be made to the prototype and then it would be off to mass production. Everything was well and it was full steam ahead hence the message above. (Kickstarter Update 28)

Again after the date was missed there was no outpouring of negativity, we accepted the reasons given and carried on waiting patiently. We are not children, we know how the process works, we are not going to storm the barricades, contact The Register or email Watchdog if there are genuine problems encountered that couldn't be foreseen. Here we are on Update 40 and all we get is "as soon as we can", something taxi firms tend to say when they haven't got a clue when they'll arrive.

[Pegaz]

You right of course, but as you can see, history is repeated.
The very same people, who bitterly defended the Vega+ project until his failure, now do the same thing with Next here, with the same "arguments".
Why they do this on sc, not on wos?
Because they couldnt even open such a topic there, we all know why.
After all that happened with the Vega project, each Next backer has the right to be suspicious if there are any signs that something is wrong.
"Be cool and patient, everything will be fine, the sun shines, the birds twirling around us, life is good and all people are honest..."
I'm sick of that sh*t and I'm not gonna lose my time on this, again...

[cha05e90]

After all that happened with the Vega project, each Next backer has the right to be suspicious if there are any signs that something is wrong.
"Be cool and patient, everything will be fine, the sun shines, the birds twirling around us, life is good and all people are honest..."
I'm sick of that sh*t and I'm not gonna lose my time on this, again...

Hmm. I did not even think about the "Vega + project", 'cos I had and have no interest in "hand helds". I am a backer of the Next project, though. And I'm not suspicious at all - or, to be more precise, I'm not more concerned than with any other Kickstarter campaign. Why should I? If you personally see a strong correlation because of "Sinclair!", "Spectrum!", "Kickstarter!", "Delays!"... and this makes you sick - then this is of course your "right" to feel so. And - just for the record - I'm *not* defending the Next people, but as I'm rather near to industrialization of products I know that sh*t happens.

And, by the way: If you don't accept to loose all money from Kickstarter campaigns, then don't do it. Sorry for the rant, just my 2 cent...

[Pegaz]

After all that happened with the Vega project, each Next backer has the right to be suspicious if there are any signs that something is wrong.
"Be cool and patient, everything will be fine, the sun shines, the birds twirling around us, life is good and all people are honest..."
I'm sick of that sh*t and I'm not gonna lose my time on this, again...

Hmm. I did not even think about the "Vega + project", 'cos I had and have no interest in "hand helds". I am a backer of the Next project, though. And I'm not suspicious at all - or, to be more precise, I'm not more concerned than with any other Kickstarter campaign. Why should I? If you personally see a strong correlation because of "Sinclair!", "Spectrum!", "Kickstarter!", "Delays!"... and this makes you sick - then this is of course your "right" to feel so. And - just for the record - I'm *not* defending the Next people, but as I'm rather near to industrialization of products I know that sh*t happens.

And, by the way: If you don't accept to loose all money from Kickstarter campaigns, then don't do it. Sorry for the rant, just my 2 cent...

I didnt point to you in my previous post... how could you possibly conclude something like this after ten days on sc?
Unless, if you dont reveal to us, what is your original wos nickname...
About the rest... Ralf has made some good points, I dont have anything to add to that...

[Ralf]

About the rest... Ralf has made some good points, I dont have anything to add to that...

I'd like to add one thing. Next and Vega+ projects are somehow similar in their fate but there is one serious difference.

In case of Vega creators began fighting among themselves and probably using project money for lawsuits. It ended with main and only hardware designer (Chris Smith) leaving the project and taking all the documentation for work done so far with him. The creators left at the project were unable to continue his work so they started from scratch with lamest but seemingly easiest way - freeware emulator running on Linux. Yet the devil is in the detail, they probably wanted to do it fast and quickly so as we know they ended with very limited number of crappy prototypes.

As far as I know it didn't happen in Next project, the creator remained working together which is a good sign.

[1024MAK]

@Pegaz - all these schemes are a gamble. You either give an unknown small company your money and hope for the best, or you keep your money in your possession, but take the risk that you may never get your hands on the item that may or may not get made. Of course, if you are not bothered about getting said item, then the choice is clear - keep you money. If you cannot afford to throw the money away, again, keep your money and don’t take the gamble.

There are lots of other ways of gambling, including buying a company or shares in one or more companies (anyone want to buy Maplin? Or Carillion shares? [I had some shares in Carillion as part of a share save plan, because at one time they owned a company that was my employer.]

Or you can place a bet on some event...

Sometimes you don’t even know that your life will be subject to a large gamble. Such as your employer going bust. I feel sorry for all the workers in the above two companies, where they had no say in events. They just got told that sorry, the company has no money and therefore has/will stop trading. Your employment has ended.

Some of these bets have a date (or date and time) when you will know if you have won or lost. But others don’t.

I have no more idea than anyone else if the ZX Spectrum Next cased computers will actually make it into the hands of backers. But the board only backers have received their boards. The updates from this project look to be far more informative and believable than those from the Vega+.

Of course, the delay is very frustrating and annoying. And as time goes on, backers will start to worry that it’s all going wrong. The longer the delay, the worse this worry will get.

Am I hopelessly optimistic? Probably. But I would rather have a positive outlook on life. But that’s just me

You and other people are perfectly entitled to have different opinions. I don’t have a problem with that.

Mark

[Hernan]

I have the board since earlier this year and so far, it's a solid machine. I fully upgraded it (2 MB RAM, RTC, Wi-Fi) and everything is working OK. It lives inside a clear case from Retro Radionics (looks great!).

The only thing that disappointed me is the lack of ULAplus, and only from "political" issues. Also, it's supposedly fully open source, but when the sources were released a couple of months ago... the VHDL code of the FPGA core is mysteriously missing. And the lack of additional cores, that big FPGA it's completly under-utilized.

[Bizzley]

I think crowd-funding started out with noble intentions but as soon as people realised the lack of accountability involved they saw how they could take advantage of it. I don't mean they planned to take the money and run right from the start (but apparently some did!) but that the whole "you're buying into an idea rather than a product" was seen as an easy get-out when it was coming apparent that they couldn't deliver on what they had promised.

Since there's really nothing new under the sun you only have to look at some of the classic economic Bubbles to see the same signs: people pledging money for something non-tangible, exhortations to "get in quick at the start", profits to be made at a later date (I'm going to buy two and put one on eBay) and of course the slow dawning realization that you've made a fool of yourself. So just as people later on wondered why on earth they had sold their house to buy a single tulip bulb you begin to realize that your plan of inviting your mates around for an all night session of Horace Goes Skiing instead of Call Of Duty on the PS4 might not have been the best of reasons to have clicked on that Button

Crowd funding is often compared to betting or investing but at least with those - provided you're not dealing with a Boiler Room scam or a bloke on a street corner who'll do a runner with your cash - then at least you stand some chance of getting a result, good or bad. And some accountability. Crowd funding is like betting on a horse race where the organizer can decide not to supply any horses or even a track for them to race on and then keep your money. Legally.

[Bizzley]

The only thing that disappointed me is the lack of ULAplus, and only from "political" issues. Also, it's supposedly fully open source, but when the sources were released a couple of months ago... the VHDL code of the FPGA core is mysteriously missing. And the lack of additional cores, that big FPGA it's completly under-utilized.

Do you think it should have been aimed more at the generic retro market rather than as a successor to the Spectrum, a machine that with the appropriate core "can become any of the old machines you used to love as a kid?" How does having a Spectrum-specific keyboard pan out if you want to use another core for a different machine?

[Hernan]

Do you think it should have been aimed more at the generic retro market rather than as a successor to the Spectrum, a machine that with the appropriate core "can become any of the old machines you used to love as a kid?" How does having a Spectrum-specific keyboard pan out if you want to use another core for a different machine?

It can be both... and the keyboard thing is irrelevant since it has a PS/2 port.

[richl]

Obviously you know I am not someone who ever defended the Vega+ campaign (quite the contrary) but there are some fundamental differences between the two campaigns and they really can't be compared as like for like.

As far as I'm concerned, to even say that they're both behind schedule would be incorrect as this would imply both intended to deliver. One has constantly lied and delivered virtually b*gger all (and will never produce the actual product as promised). The other has delivered hardware that met the announced specs to one set of people and is behind with its obligations to produce a boxed version to another set of people (myself included) due to them seemingly wanting to do the right thing by backers and get the case spot on and not looking like some amateur 3D printed blob.

At least one person in the Vega+ campaign has a history of taking money off people and then not delivering on what they promised. It's basically their M.O. I already knew about them before the campaign was started as they cropped up in the press before. Others involved also don't have good form at delivering on their promises either. I don't know all the people on the Next campaign but the ones I do know have got a good track record of delivering quality products. The detail in the updates (even if they're late) shows a real genuine passion for the project, something that was completely lacking in the Vega+ one once Paul Andrews and Chris Smith left.

I've also backed a lot of Kickstarter campaigns, several of which have fallen behind schedule. One was about 18 months late due to problems with rights issues and the guy involved was pretty rubbish at keeping everyone in the loop so people were understandably getting worried/angry. However, his track record at delivering on other projects was exceptional so I didn't panic and the project was eventually delivered to everyone, albeit a lot later than planned. I'm not a gambler and wouldn't throw money at anything I thought was unlikely to ever see the light of day.

I can understand the "once bitten, twice shy" logic but without wishing to keep on repeating the same thing over and over: the two campaigns are totally different. TOTALLY. One was very amateur and maybe in time will even be proven to have been fraudulent, the other is neither of these things. I wasn't a troll for dismissing the Vega+ as nothing but a crock and I'm not a mug for still having faith in the Next team. I don't blindly believe in ANYTHING but I am pretty good at knowing when I should start to get worried about something and I'm not losing any sleep over the Next campaign at the moment. If we're still having the same conversation 6 months down the line then yeah, maybe I'll change my tune but why panic for the sake of it?

[beanz]

You right of course, but as you can see, history is repeated.
The very same people, who bitterly defended the Vega+ project until his failure, now do the same thing with Next here, with the same "arguments".

Not even close to being the same...that's laughable.

I have had my next for a year...updates are plentiful, the 3000+ boards are already made, the next is the board, not the fancy case...the case is the hold up....worst case (no pun intended)...you'd get a board..re: the spectrum next.

[cha05e90]

I didnt point to you in my previous post... how could you possibly conclude something like this after ten days on sc?
Unless, if you dont reveal to us, what is your original wos nickname...
About the rest... Ralf has made some good points, I dont have anything to add to that...

Sorry, I did not take anything personal at all. And of course there's nothing really wrong with Ralfs post - nevertheless: It doesn't have to be that way. And I'm still convinced that the projects aren't really comparable in many regards. So I'm more with Mark or richl here...

Maybe I had the naive hope that coming from a more or less blood stained community (AMIGA!) into a more calm and reasonable environment in the ZX Spectrum scene... This was before I read deeper and deeper into the past WoS or the Vega+ debacles...

[PeterJ]

The Spectrum community has had it's fair share of disappointments with crowd funding. I'm a backer of the Vega+ and the Next.

As others have said crowdfunding is a risk and you do have to accept that you are not guaranteed anything. It's just the way it works. 99% of the time it works fine. Just sad that the 1% happened to us.

At least the Next team are still doing believable updates which is good. I'm happy to wait, because there is nothing we can do to speed it along. I figure we just have to leave them to get on with it.

I don't understand these people who seem to spend significant periods of their limited time on this earth thinking up new Twitter handles so the can moan about the Vega and add to the thousands of posts on the campaign page. I have an interest in both projects and follow them in a general sense, but there is a time when you need to move on. We all get done over at some point in our lives.

PS. I had Woolworths shares and also lost shed loads during the house price crash.

[Bizzley]

As others have said crowdfunding is a risk and you do have to accept that you are not guaranteed anything. It's just the way it works. 99% of the time it works fine. Just sad that the 1% happened to us.

According to Kickstarter themselves 9% of projects that are funded and have succesfully created a product (my emphasis) fail to supply that product to their backers. "Project backers should expect a failure rate of around 1-in-10 projects, and to receive a refund 13% of the time." - Professor Ethan Mollick (2015). It's not clear what the Kickstarter figures are for projects that fail to produce a product at all in the first place.

Indiegogo don't supply completion figures. You can either assume that it's pretty close to the Kickstarter figures for them as well or, if you're cynical, because they don't insist on a working prototype before starting a project that it's higher.

[1024MAK]

@Bizzley so are you a backer of either the ZX Spectrum Next or of the Vega+?

Mark

[Ralf]

As others have said crowdfunding is a risk and you do have to accept that you are not guaranteed anything. It's just the way it works. 99% of the time it works fine. Just sad that the 1% happened to us.

I would guess it's closer to about 30%, not 1%

Personally I backed once on some local Polish crowdfunding platform a retro-inspired computer game. They hoped to do it in one year, it's 4 years already and there is still nothing with little hope for a change. I bit the bullet,accepted my loss and don't whine in internet about it But also learnt to be cautious.

My opinion is that people behind crowdunding projects are often enthusiasts good at their passion (programming, soldering, designing) but just as often are lame at "making business". It they were good with business, they would be able to secure money for their project in traditional way (like taking a credit at bank) and not beg for money through crowdfunding. And somehow I feel that with a bank credit which you have to pay or you're kicked out of your flat people become more efficient and less careless

In case of my game it was outsource programmers giving up. The creators hired some young guys for some tasks (hiring experienced programmers was probably out of reach) and after some time it turned out that the task was too difficult for them so they quit. It repeated 3 times so we may say the creators lacked recruiting skills, they couldn't tell a guy who will finish the job from a guy who will fail. Unfortunately they learnt nothing from the failures.

[Bizzley]

@Bizzley so are you a backer of either the ZX Spectrum Next or of the Vega+?
Mark

I'm a Spectrum Next backer, backer No. 3034, standard £175+£10 boxed version. I wasn't originally going to back it since I have no real need for a Spectrum with all the versions I have in the attic but got involved in trying to create a dirt-cheap method to link a Next development board to a PC\Mac with one of the software developers and thought it might be fun to develop a game for it. I wrote some software tools for it back in June 2017 and then they started adding all sorts of things (I'm not even sure if the SID chip is in there or not now!) and due to that and the delay in delivering the boxed version I slowly lost interest and moved on to something else.

As to the Vega+, no I didn't back that, it was obvious to me right from the start that there was something fundamentally wrong with the whole thing.

[PeterJ]

My percentages were maybe rather out! I suppose I was basing on my success with other projects. The sentiments of my post still stand though.

[beanz]

As to the Vega+, no I didn't back that, it was obvious to me right from the start that there was something fundamentally wrong with the whole thing.

Same, though the fundamental thing I couldn't get my head around was the point of a mobile speccy device when there are already so many choices around and have been for years...105 quid just to have the Sinclair logo on it seemed a bit silly.