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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:47 pm
by beanz
Yes I was wondering myself about the Open Source situation now they have pretty much announced another run of not only the cased next but the board only option too.

I can see it being a bit of "shoot yourself in the foot" to release the docs and then try to sell more of them. Still, I doubt anyone has the resources and/or inclination to create the case...the board only though should be pretty much something anyone could easily replicate.

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 6:00 pm
by Alcoholics Anonymous
toot_toot wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 12:16 pm Personally, I think ULANext is not the same as ULAPlus as it's just essentially a completely new Video Mode for the Next making Next only games look better, more unique and ultimately less like a Spectrum.
I think you have a misunderstanding of what ULAnext is - it serves the exact same purpose as ULAPlus. Both change the palette of the existing spectrum colours but do nothing to the colour resolution. You can colour existing games using ULAnext just like you can with ULAplus.

There are two things you can do in the next.

One is you can use the spectrum like normal and you can change the palette entries for ink, bright ink, paper, bright paper to different colours (each colour is 9-bit). So you could change ink 2 (red) to something else, eg, brown. Then all red ink pixels will be brown. Bright red ink is different - you could change that independently to orange, eg. This is straight up colour substitution.

ULAnext is a step further. It changes the meaning of an attribute byte by letting you specify how many of the rightmost bits in the attribute byte will be considered the ink colour. The rest are taken as the paper colour. ULAplus does the same thing but the rightmost 3 bits are always ink and the next 3 bits are always paper. This would be equivalent to a ULAnext format byte of 0x07. Where they depart is ULAplus uses the bright and flash bits to select different palette sets whereas ULAnext only uses the flash and paper bits to extend the paper colour selection (or ink selection if the format byte has more bits set).
Yes, 14MHz is still in there - sorry I forgot it was 28 MHz that was dropped. However 28MHz boost was announced as an official update in June 2017 here: https://www.specnext.com/new-turbo-modes-14-and-28mhz/
(with a retracted update from January 2018 saying 28MHz wouldn't be available).
It crashes the machine. It's not really useful if it's going to do that :(

Everyone is committed to providing the best machine possible but there's also an eye on what was promised in the kickstarter as that is what people pledged money for. In the kickstarter, 7MHz is what was promised so getting 14MHz is icing.
FM sound was definitely listed in the Campaign (in fact it's still there), but that too seems to have been quietly dropped.
Yes FM has been dropped because it takes up too much space. You'd have to choose other things to remove to make space for it. The SID was being considered as the FM option as was this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJLFV96Tt7c

Another option being considered is enhancing the AY. But what can be done depends on priorities and available fpga space. The core is not done yet - it's still being developed.
There have been no updates on the status of Rex Next, Dizzy or Nodes of Yesod in months - all three of those games were promised as part of Stretch goals (which were met)
The oliver twins were taking the new dizzy game design + screenshots on tour to many retro events last year. The game will be for both the 128k and the Next with the Next seeing some enhancements (but not too many from what I have seen - multiple AY and clashless sprites are what I noticed. Perhaps they would change the palette too as that's something easy to do). I think the dev is fairly far along.

Rex Next and Nodes are being done by the original programmers. I haven't seen much from them but it is still going. This is dependent on their spare time.

There's a wip video for the 128k version of wonderful dizzy on the specnext games site:
https://www.spectrumnextgames.uk/#Games
But my point is that many features were promised but have been dropped. I'm OK with that as they've made the decision that it would either take up too much time or resources to implement them.
I don't think very much has been dropped.
Processor: Z80 3.5Mhz and 7Mhz modes
Memory: 512Kb RAM (expandable to 1.5Mb internally and 2.5Mb externally)
Video: Hardware sprites, 256 colours mode, Timex 8x1 mode etc.
Video Output: RGB, VGA, HDMI
Storage: SD Card slot, with DivMMC-compatible protocol
Audio: 3x AY-3-8912 audio chips with stereo output + FM sound
Joystick: DB9 compatible with Cursor, Kempston and Interface 2 protocols (selectable)
PS/2 port: Mouse with Kempston mode emulation and an external keyboard
Special: Multiface functionality for memory access, savegames, cheats etc.
Tape support: Mic and Ear ports for tape loading and saving
Expansion: Original external bus expansion port and accelerator expansion port
Accelerator board (optional): GPU / 1Ghz CPU / 512Mb RAM
Network (optional): Wi Fi module
Extras: Real Time Clock (optional), internal speaker (optional)
Everything in this list is in except the FM sound.
The expansion bus and accelerator are still seeing some work.

Stretch goals:

(done) there must be two
(done) box of memories
(active) nodes of yesod
(active) internet toolbox
(active) we play more
(done) holy manual
(done) never forget
(active) make me dizzy
(active) rex next
(done) expand me easy
(done) stronger zx next

Let's not forget that there have been additions way beyond these lists in both the software and hardware. As just one example, neither Sinclair nor Amstrad ever contributed as much to the operating system as what is in NextZXOS.

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 3:24 pm
by Firefox
Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 6:00 pm
...
Memory: 512Kb RAM (expandable to 1.5Mb internally and 2.5Mb externally)
...
Did they really mean 512 kilobits of RAM, or did they perhaps mean 512 kilobytes?

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 3:54 pm
by Seven.FFF
Kilobytes lol.

So arguably the original goal of 512 Kilobits and the stretch goal of 1 Megabits have been vastly exceeded! Even more so if you consider Kb and Mb to denote 1,000 and 1,000,000 respectively, like nobody sane did ever unless they were referring to a drive storage context.

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 5:15 pm
by Sokurah
Firefox wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 3:24 pm
Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 6:00 pm
Did they really mean 512 kilobits of RAM, or did they perhaps mean 512 kilobytes?
Please tell me that wasn't a serious question?

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 5:27 pm
by Firefox
Sokurah wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 5:15 pm Please tell me that wasn't a serious question?
Yes...?

Oh well, I'm off to drink 500Ml of beer! ;)

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 3:37 pm
by toot_toot
Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 6:00 pm
I don't think very much has been dropped.
Processor: Z80 3.5Mhz and 7Mhz modes
Memory: 512Kb RAM (expandable to 1.5Mb internally and 2.5Mb externally)
Video: Hardware sprites, 256 colours mode, Timex 8x1 mode etc.
Video Output: RGB, VGA, HDMI
Storage: SD Card slot, with DivMMC-compatible protocol
Audio: 3x AY-3-8912 audio chips with stereo output + FM sound
Joystick: DB9 compatible with Cursor, Kempston and Interface 2 protocols (selectable)
PS/2 port: Mouse with Kempston mode emulation and an external keyboard
Special: Multiface functionality for memory access, savegames, cheats etc.
Tape support: Mic and Ear ports for tape loading and saving
Expansion: Original external bus expansion port and accelerator expansion port
Accelerator board (optional): GPU / 1Ghz CPU / 512Mb RAM
Network (optional): Wi Fi module
Extras: Real Time Clock (optional), internal speaker (optional)
Everything in this list is in except the FM sound.
The expansion bus and accelerator are still seeing some work.

Stretch goals:

(done) there must be two
(done) box of memories
(active) nodes of yesod
(active) internet toolbox
(active) we play more
(done) holy manual
(done) never forget
(active) make me dizzy
(active) rex next
(done) expand me easy
(done) stronger zx next
Well, you could say that technically none of those have been delivered to cased Next backers.... and until they get the keyboard working, there's no sign of when they will be delivered to cased Next backers.

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 3:46 pm
by Seven.FFF
You could say that, but it was said in reponse to
But my point is that many features were promised but have been dropped. I'm OK with that as they've made the decision that it would either take up too much time or resources to implement them.
not as a statement that everyone has received their machines. Those people who have received their machines so far can attest that those features haven't been dropped.

What you're saying is analogous to "Ford has removed the engine from the 2020 Focus. I know this because the 2020 Focus hasn't been delivered to dealerships yet, so nobody has received an engine until everyone who has preordered receives their car."

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 6:03 pm
by Alcoholics Anonymous
Firefox wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 5:27 pm Yes...?

Oh well, I'm off to drink 500Ml of beer! ;)
lol. I'm with you - I know the importance of using proper units. Having a mega- anything even something that looks as small as an "l", probably means we won't see you until next week.
toot_toot wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 12:29 pm
Most importantly, once launched, the Spectrum Next will be fully open source, including its firmware and schematics, meaning the community will be able to take it further into the future by improving both its software and hardware!
At the time people were excited at the thought of the same board design being used for other projects, like a Commodore 64 Next, MSX Next etc, ............ but now that they're running 18 months behind schedule, that's 18 months lost for other teams using the same, open source, design for other machines or even improvements by the community to the Next itself.
Actually several people who were interested in helping out were given access to the core source. Only two outside the team have contributed anything (myself and Garry Lancaster).

Someone familiar with the uno was given the ucf file which they used to generate a core for the next.

People interested in doing things could have been doing them; the reality is only a few will get around to doing anything. But for sure the core source will not be opened until the kickstarter pledges are completed.

The schematics have been available for a while. I think what surprised everyone is that someone managed to make a portable spectrum next without any help at all:

https://www.dorchester3d.com/printing/b ... t-handheld

Where there's a will there's a way.

The same goes for the software end. There's actually a fairly strong set of development tools available now and emulators that can emulate important aspects of the machine. Information about the hardware and operating system is available.
But what worries me is that the team are now talking about a second Kickstarter campaign once the cased Nexts are released, does that mean Open Source will also be quietly dropped as any clones could impact the success of the second Kickstarter campaign?
I can see it being a bit of "shoot yourself in the foot" to release the docs and then try to sell more of them. Still, I doubt anyone has the resources and/or inclination to create the case...the board only though should be pretty much something anyone could easily replicate.
It will be opened after the first kickstarter. No one will be able to replicate the zx next exactly because of the case as you say. Existing fpga computers will be able to do most things but will probably miss one or more of the wifi, rtc, pi, joysticks, no-delay keyboard.. and I am hopeful there will be some good reasons to have a pi even for non-linux or pi tinkerers. Nothing will stop people from making their own pcbs. Maybe with a board only offer, there won't be much difference in pricing between a 3rd party pcb and an official one, especially if the official one can benefit from volume discounting.

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:26 pm
by Pegaz
Another month passed...
I cant access spectrum next forum, at the moment.
Always gives me some certificate error??

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:37 pm
by Seven.FFF
Certificate expired, and Henrique is travelling away at E3. Will be renewed as soon as he can manage it.

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:38 pm
by R-Tape
Pegaz wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:26 pm I cant access spectrum next forum, at the moment.
Always gives me some certificate error??
I took a risk and went through the cert warning to the site; it's still there and people are posting.
Another month passed...
Hmmm....we are going to get the finished product this year...aren't we?

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:19 pm
by emook

I took a risk and went through the cert warning to the site; it's still there and people are posting.
Another month passed...
Hmmm....we are going to get the finished product this year...aren't we?
Who the f**k knows? :lol:

No seriously, we are ALL waiting the news on the flipping keyboard and its a shame that its taken so long to get right as everything is ready to go.

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:25 pm
by Bizzley
According to their Twitter feed:

"Still waiting on news on the keyboard. There are a few different threads happening in parallel. Changes to the hammer size, domes, contact design which requires new tooling. Hoping to have results soon!"

Backers were told a month ago that minor changes were being made to the contact patterns on the membrane to fix the multi-keypress problem, the results of which would be known in a week's time. However it appears from the tweet that things are a lot more serious than that.

Comments on the Kickstarter page are becoming more negative than positive fuelled mainly by the lack of information and updates. What details are available are being fed to backers from other sources such as the Twitter feed. The failure to renew the Certificate for their main website is just another example of the apathy and lack of concern for this project.

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:47 pm
by emook
The failure to renew the Certificate for their main website is just another example of the apathy and lack of concern for this project.
Is one negative way you could look at it, the other way is that the new cert had been renewed but incorrectly applied and the person who can remedy that has been out of the country.

I really don't understand what people expect to happen by moaning continuously, its late and that's it - nothing anyone can do about it, would you prefer a product with either no keyboard or one that doesn't work? I know what I would like as a backer, a working keyboard.

The scale of this project is so small that you just cant demand a team of experts at any company to devote hundreds of hours of engineering time on this. But surely everyone will already know that as they all seem to be experts.

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:55 pm
by R-Tape
I don't think there's a lack of concern for the project, my guess is that we have a bunch of good guys getting increasingly stressed out thinking "OH GOD WE WANT TO DELIVER THIS BUT THE REALITY IS A NIGHTMARE!". I'm surprised that something as fundamental as a keyboard is hard to do these days, but it looks like the Next team are too. Even still, it's a welcome change from that 'other project' that was an obvious swindle.

If we're still wondering what the crack is in 2020 though, well, I was going to say that I would assume my £200 is gone, but the board is done—we're guaranteed something aren't we?

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:56 pm
by R-Tape
emook wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:47 pm But surely everyone will already know that as they all seem to be experts.
I think you'll find this country is tired of experts... :mrgreen:

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:11 am
by Bizzley
emook wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:47 pm I really don't understand what people expect to happen by moaning continuously, its late and that's it - nothing anyone can do about it, would you prefer a product with either no keyboard or one that doesn't work? I know what I would like as a backer, a working keyboard.
Right now I'd be happy with just the board, at least I'd be able to plug an old PS2 keyboard into it. You know, one of those keyboards that actually works. That and a PSU in whatever colour cardboard case they've decided on. Ship them out to all the backers with the locked off firmware and printed manual if possible, URL to download it and a PDF file if not. Then send the bulky box and packaging and super-duper case out when they're ready and we can just pop the board into it when it arrives. All pressure lifted. :)

If it's moaning to ask where the regular backer updates have got to (every two weeks wasn't it?) or if it's moaning to wonder where the definite "before end Q2 delivery" date stands then sign me up! If you want to see some real moaning then have a read of the comment posted by JoeZx a few days ago on the Kickstarter page. Now THAT'S moaning!

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:18 am
by emook
but the board is done—we're guaranteed something aren't we?
The board is bought and paid for yes- also boxes, psu, manuals, SD cards, Pis etc But I am sure everyone would prefer it in the case and with the keyboard as promised.
my guess is that we have a bunch of good guys getting increasingly stressed out thinking "OH GOD WE WANT TO DELIVER THIS BUT THE REALITY IS A NIGHTMARE!"
This is more accurate than you can believe and everyone involved is doing their part for FREE, no one on the team is being paid to write software, games, perfect the and update the core, write the OS, man the FB page, host the dev sites, give out updates, etc - so yes its a bit tiring having to defend the project when you're doing it for the love of the machine / scene. If there was another bash at this maybe some decisions would have been mad and things taken a different course.

We have over 3000 people who have backed the project but only a small proportion of those are the ones who bring negativity to the table, in fact I should start making a list :D <that was a joke> Seriously though, we know its late and incredibly frustrating for everyone.

The cert issue has been fixed now as well. So we can turn the apathy bulb back to green.

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:23 am
by emook
Bizzley wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:11 am
Right now I'd be happy with just the board....
The board only option has been delivered a long time ago, over 300 of them went out - it was said at the time if you dont want to wait for full kits back the board only - I'm sorry you didnt take that option, I did try and wrangle you a board at the time after I found out you were interested but not everything always works out.
JoeZx
Oh JoeZx the MD? I have a permanent JoeZX filter these days. :D

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:29 am
by Seven.FFF
JoeZX is a spectacularly unpleasant and toxic guy all round.

He’s taken to hanging around indie game devs’ project updates and casting sarcastic aspersions about their commitment and motivation. Nobody really needs that kind of sniping from the sidelines.

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:43 am
by Bizzley
emook wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:23 am The board only option has been delivered a long time ago, over 300 of them went out - it was said at the time if you dont want to wait for full kits back the board only - I'm sorry you didnt take that option
If we'd been told at the time that the full kit was going to be a good two years away - and even then it may not be ready - then I'd have taken the board only option at the time. To reiterate, send out the boards and PSU's (they do exist gathering dust somewhere don't they?) to waiting cased backers who ask for them and forward the bulky stuff on when it's done. Anything wrong with that idea that I've missed?
Oh JoeZx the MD? I have a permanent JoeZX filter these days. :D
Pity....it's a great rant :D

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:33 am
by ZxSpence
I've looked at the comments on the Kickstarter campaign and JoeZX makes an angry if perfectly valid contribution. Maybe he's finally learned that Kickstarter projects often promise the moon and then once they have your money they treat you with contempt like delivery is optional, the contempt often reinforced by outriders who fear that any negative criticism will demoralise the delivery team and make the situation worse. That's when the bickering starts and the flamebans. That's when egomaniacs get involved and get the backslapping of those thanking them for "weeding out the gene pool". THAT is toxic, not some poor sod who feels duped out of hard earned money rightly or wrongly. This is when it gets religious with heated arguments between those who have lost faith and those who still believe.

Read the front page of the Kickstarter when it was in attract mode, all done. All promises about keeping risks low and remember that people gave their money willingly on the back of a sales pitch, TWO years ago.

Whenever the project gets into trouble and things are late Henrique goes sullen and quiet. I get that, he cares and he's stressed out and the situation is beyond his control but various friends of the project have asked him to overcommunicate so the previous updates don't look like lies, the backers come on a journey with him but he fails to do it in the same market square the backers are waiting in. You have to hunt around, guess and read between the lines.

I have some sympathy, when things go wrong it's tempting to be like this but lashing out at the hand that fed the project is truly shitty behaviour.

The project will end either of likely two ways:

1. The keyboard will be delivered and everyone shouts yippee, but the Next brand is now tarnished so take-up and enthusiasm is nearly sub zero.

2. The project will not deliver that case, that keyboard (maybe something from radionics) and people may get their boards and the glitz and glamour of the next dies its final death and people use the platform but not how they would have. It's no longer a credible brand.

Terrible shame. There's a third worse one which with all the rework I fear the most but by this point your hackles are up and you want to flame me anyhow, so no point in making it worse.

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:45 pm
by Alcoholics Anonymous
Bizzley wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:25 pm "Still waiting on news on the keyboard. There are a few different threads happening in parallel. Changes to the hammer size, domes, contact design which requires new tooling. Hoping to have results soon!"

Backers were told a month ago that minor changes were being made to the contact patterns on the membrane to fix the multi-keypress problem, the results of which would be known in a week's time. However it appears from the tweet that things are a lot more serious than that.
And still nothing has been tested because it takes that long to make changes. There is no update because nothing has changed: everyone is still waiting for the changes to be made and is still waiting to see the results. When they say "hoping to have results soon" it's a guess on how long it will take the partner to make changes and test. This depends on their timeline and their facility's availability.

Things are not more serious - what is mentioned is just more detail on what is being varied. Rather than trying one thing at a time, with three weeks between tests, several things are being tried at once.
Comments on the Kickstarter page are becoming more negative than positive fuelled mainly by the lack of information and updates. What details are available are being fed to backers from other sources such as the Twitter feed. The failure to renew the Certificate for their main website is just another example of the apathy and lack of concern for this project.
When people ask questions, answering them is a bad thing - got it. Posting something on twitter to make sure people know the wait is still on - bad. This post and several others here probably a bad idea too?

Come on, on the last point. I take personal offense at being accused of being apathetic and holding lack of concern. I (and others) donate hours upon hours of sparse free time to make the product as good as it can be. This does not change the reality of how long it takes to make something physical and to test it to make sure it works.

Having got that off my chest, I can return to mellow :) I don't intend to come across as angry, as I am not, but sometimes ridiculousness has to be reality-checked. There is no apathy in the project, no "we're satisfied since we have boards", and so on. This should be clear by how far the kickstarter goals have been exceeded in the machine itself in this time. Development never stopped once the kickstarter got your and my money.

However I don't disagree that Henrique could be more regular with the updates, even to say what the twitter feed said (ie nothing). He is a busy man as he heads his own software company and travels a lot and usually has to be reminded that it is time for another update. He prefers to wait for news - good or bad - so that he has something to say so if an update is not forthcoming it does not mean things are bad, it really means nothing happened. As Henrique is the only one that can do kickstarter updates, questions between updates can only be answered via other means like facebook, forums, twitter.

This June update is particularly important as there was an estimate for end of Q2 and I don't think that could be met even if the keyboard is approved on Monday because manufacturing slots still have to be scheduled and I'm sure the team would like to test the membrane in person beforehand. But the project is close - it's just hanging on this last bit to move. There are still things to do in the core and software but these things can be updated by the end user easily so it's not something that will hold anything back. The machine is already very good as-is.

Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:57 pm
by hikoki
Are you tired of waiting for the collectables? keep yourself entertained with Nextbuild