Spectrum Computing

Certificate expired, and Henrique is travelling away at E3. Will be renewed as soon as he can manage it.

Pegaz wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:26 pm I cant access spectrum next forum, at the moment.
Always gives me some certificate error??

I took a risk and went through the cert warning to the site; it's still there and people are posting.

Another month passed...

Hmmm....we are going to get the finished product this year...aren't we?

I took a risk and went through the cert warning to the site; it's still there and people are posting.

Another month passed...

Hmmm....we are going to get the finished product this year...aren't we?

Who the f**k knows?

No seriously, we are ALL waiting the news on the flipping keyboard and its a shame that its taken so long to get right as everything is ready to go.

According to their Twitter feed:

"Still waiting on news on the keyboard. There are a few different threads happening in parallel. Changes to the hammer size, domes, contact design which requires new tooling. Hoping to have results soon!"

Backers were told a month ago that minor changes were being made to the contact patterns on the membrane to fix the multi-keypress problem, the results of which would be known in a week's time. However it appears from the tweet that things are a lot more serious than that.

Comments on the Kickstarter page are becoming more negative than positive fuelled mainly by the lack of information and updates. What details are available are being fed to backers from other sources such as the Twitter feed. The failure to renew the Certificate for their main website is just another example of the apathy and lack of concern for this project.

The failure to renew the Certificate for their main website is just another example of the apathy and lack of concern for this project.

Is one negative way you could look at it, the other way is that the new cert had been renewed but incorrectly applied and the person who can remedy that has been out of the country.

I really don't understand what people expect to happen by moaning continuously, its late and that's it - nothing anyone can do about it, would you prefer a product with either no keyboard or one that doesn't work? I know what I would like as a backer, a working keyboard.

The scale of this project is so small that you just cant demand a team of experts at any company to devote hundreds of hours of engineering time on this. But surely everyone will already know that as they all seem to be experts.

I don't think there's a lack of concern for the project, my guess is that we have a bunch of good guys getting increasingly stressed out thinking "OH GOD WE WANT TO DELIVER THIS BUT THE REALITY IS A NIGHTMARE!". I'm surprised that something as fundamental as a keyboard is hard to do these days, but it looks like the Next team are too. Even still, it's a welcome change from that 'other project' that was an obvious swindle.

If we're still wondering what the crack is in 2020 though, well, I was going to say that I would assume my £200 is gone, but the board is done—we're guaranteed something aren't we?

emook wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:47 pm But surely everyone will already know that as they all seem to be experts.

I think you'll find this country is tired of experts...

emook wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:47 pm I really don't understand what people expect to happen by moaning continuously, its late and that's it - nothing anyone can do about it, would you prefer a product with either no keyboard or one that doesn't work? I know what I would like as a backer, a working keyboard.

Right now I'd be happy with just the board, at least I'd be able to plug an old PS2 keyboard into it. You know, one of those keyboards that actually works. That and a PSU in whatever colour cardboard case they've decided on. Ship them out to all the backers with the locked off firmware and printed manual if possible, URL to download it and a PDF file if not. Then send the bulky box and packaging and super-duper case out when they're ready and we can just pop the board into it when it arrives. All pressure lifted.

If it's moaning to ask where the regular backer updates have got to (every two weeks wasn't it?) or if it's moaning to wonder where the definite "before end Q2 delivery" date stands then sign me up! If you want to see some real moaning then have a read of the comment posted by JoeZx a few days ago on the Kickstarter page. Now THAT'S moaning!

but the board is done—we're guaranteed something aren't we?

The board is bought and paid for yes- also boxes, psu, manuals, SD cards, Pis etc But I am sure everyone would prefer it in the case and with the keyboard as promised.

my guess is that we have a bunch of good guys getting increasingly stressed out thinking "OH GOD WE WANT TO DELIVER THIS BUT THE REALITY IS A NIGHTMARE!"

This is more accurate than you can believe and everyone involved is doing their part for FREE, no one on the team is being paid to write software, games, perfect the and update the core, write the OS, man the FB page, host the dev sites, give out updates, etc - so yes its a bit tiring having to defend the project when you're doing it for the love of the machine / scene. If there was another bash at this maybe some decisions would have been mad and things taken a different course.

We have over 3000 people who have backed the project but only a small proportion of those are the ones who bring negativity to the table, in fact I should start making a list <that was a joke> Seriously though, we know its late and incredibly frustrating for everyone.

The cert issue has been fixed now as well. So we can turn the apathy bulb back to green.

Bizzley wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:11 am
Right now I'd be happy with just the board....

The board only option has been delivered a long time ago, over 300 of them went out - it was said at the time if you dont want to wait for full kits back the board only - I'm sorry you didnt take that option, I did try and wrangle you a board at the time after I found out you were interested but not everything always works out.

JoeZx

Oh JoeZx the MD? I have a permanent JoeZX filter these days.

JoeZX is a spectacularly unpleasant and toxic guy all round.

He’s taken to hanging around indie game devs’ project updates and casting sarcastic aspersions about their commitment and motivation. Nobody really needs that kind of sniping from the sidelines.

emook wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:23 am The board only option has been delivered a long time ago, over 300 of them went out - it was said at the time if you dont want to wait for full kits back the board only - I'm sorry you didnt take that option

If we'd been told at the time that the full kit was going to be a good two years away - and even then it may not be ready - then I'd have taken the board only option at the time. To reiterate, send out the boards and PSU's (they do exist gathering dust somewhere don't they?) to waiting cased backers who ask for them and forward the bulky stuff on when it's done. Anything wrong with that idea that I've missed?

Oh JoeZx the MD? I have a permanent JoeZX filter these days.

Pity....it's a great rant

I've looked at the comments on the Kickstarter campaign and JoeZX makes an angry if perfectly valid contribution. Maybe he's finally learned that Kickstarter projects often promise the moon and then once they have your money they treat you with contempt like delivery is optional, the contempt often reinforced by outriders who fear that any negative criticism will demoralise the delivery team and make the situation worse. That's when the bickering starts and the flamebans. That's when egomaniacs get involved and get the backslapping of those thanking them for "weeding out the gene pool". THAT is toxic, not some poor sod who feels duped out of hard earned money rightly or wrongly. This is when it gets religious with heated arguments between those who have lost faith and those who still believe.

Read the front page of the Kickstarter when it was in attract mode, all done. All promises about keeping risks low and remember that people gave their money willingly on the back of a sales pitch, TWO years ago.

Whenever the project gets into trouble and things are late Henrique goes sullen and quiet. I get that, he cares and he's stressed out and the situation is beyond his control but various friends of the project have asked him to overcommunicate so the previous updates don't look like lies, the backers come on a journey with him but he fails to do it in the same market square the backers are waiting in. You have to hunt around, guess and read between the lines.

I have some sympathy, when things go wrong it's tempting to be like this but lashing out at the hand that fed the project is truly shitty behaviour.

The project will end either of likely two ways:

1. The keyboard will be delivered and everyone shouts yippee, but the Next brand is now tarnished so take-up and enthusiasm is nearly sub zero.

2. The project will not deliver that case, that keyboard (maybe something from radionics) and people may get their boards and the glitz and glamour of the next dies its final death and people use the platform but not how they would have. It's no longer a credible brand.

Terrible shame. There's a third worse one which with all the rework I fear the most but by this point your hackles are up and you want to flame me anyhow, so no point in making it worse.

Bizzley wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:25 pm "Still waiting on news on the keyboard. There are a few different threads happening in parallel. Changes to the hammer size, domes, contact design which requires new tooling. Hoping to have results soon!"

Backers were told a month ago that minor changes were being made to the contact patterns on the membrane to fix the multi-keypress problem, the results of which would be known in a week's time. However it appears from the tweet that things are a lot more serious than that.

And still nothing has been tested because it takes that long to make changes. There is no update because nothing has changed: everyone is still waiting for the changes to be made and is still waiting to see the results. When they say "hoping to have results soon" it's a guess on how long it will take the partner to make changes and test. This depends on their timeline and their facility's availability.

Things are not more serious - what is mentioned is just more detail on what is being varied. Rather than trying one thing at a time, with three weeks between tests, several things are being tried at once.

Comments on the Kickstarter page are becoming more negative than positive fuelled mainly by the lack of information and updates. What details are available are being fed to backers from other sources such as the Twitter feed. The failure to renew the Certificate for their main website is just another example of the apathy and lack of concern for this project.

When people ask questions, answering them is a bad thing - got it. Posting something on twitter to make sure people know the wait is still on - bad. This post and several others here probably a bad idea too?

Come on, on the last point. I take personal offense at being accused of being apathetic and holding lack of concern. I (and others) donate hours upon hours of sparse free time to make the product as good as it can be. This does not change the reality of how long it takes to make something physical and to test it to make sure it works.

Having got that off my chest, I can return to mellow I don't intend to come across as angry, as I am not, but sometimes ridiculousness has to be reality-checked. There is no apathy in the project, no "we're satisfied since we have boards", and so on. This should be clear by how far the kickstarter goals have been exceeded in the machine itself in this time. Development never stopped once the kickstarter got your and my money.

However I don't disagree that Henrique could be more regular with the updates, even to say what the twitter feed said (ie nothing). He is a busy man as he heads his own software company and travels a lot and usually has to be reminded that it is time for another update. He prefers to wait for news - good or bad - so that he has something to say so if an update is not forthcoming it does not mean things are bad, it really means nothing happened. As Henrique is the only one that can do kickstarter updates, questions between updates can only be answered via other means like facebook, forums, twitter.

This June update is particularly important as there was an estimate for end of Q2 and I don't think that could be met even if the keyboard is approved on Monday because manufacturing slots still have to be scheduled and I'm sure the team would like to test the membrane in person beforehand. But the project is close - it's just hanging on this last bit to move. There are still things to do in the core and software but these things can be updated by the end user easily so it's not something that will hold anything back. The machine is already very good as-is.

Are you tired of waiting for the collectables? keep yourself entertained with Nextbuild

R-Tape wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:38 pm Hmmm....we are going to get the finished product this year...aren't we?

Yes, to be more precise, we are going to get the finished product by the end of Q2.

Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:45 pm This June update is particularly important as there was an estimate for end of Q2 and I don't think that could be met even if the keyboard is approved on Monday because manufacturing slots still have to be scheduled and I'm sure the team would like to test the membrane in person beforehand. But the project is close - it's just hanging on this last bit to move. There are still things to do in the core and software but these things can be updated by the end user easily so it's not something that will hold anything back. The machine is already very good as-is.

Maybe it's time to stop setting any deadlines, then? Especially if you are not sure, you will fulfill them.
Responsible people dont do that.
Otherwise, someone would think that this Q2 deadline is given for only one purpose - to fool and calm the impatient bakers...
The same thing applies to updates. If theres nothing new to say, dont say anything.
Otherwise... you know...

Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:45 pm Come on, on the last point. I take personal offense at being accused of being apathetic and holding lack of concern. I (and others) donate hours upon hours of sparse free time to make the product as good as it can be. This does not change the reality of how long it takes to make something physical and to test it to make sure it works.

This wasn't aimed at you or anyone developing for the Next but rather whoever it is behind the scenes that is responsible for the Official Spectrum Next website going offline because they didn't get around to renewing a Certificate. If you are privvy to the inside dope on why this happened then by all means post it because at the moment "they just plain forgot" seems to be the front-runner. The same can be said for the lack of Kickstarter Updates - which both of us agree could be more regular - it's not your or anyone else's responsibilty to let Kickstarter clients know on here, on Twitter, On Facebook, in Comments etc. what is going on that's what the Kickstarter Updates are for. If the promised twice-monthly Updates are not being posted and only one person can do so then it's surely within the bounds of reason to ask why this is so? Having nothing to announce is obviously a good reason not to post anything but you know what, a regular fortnightly announcement saying just this would be much more appreciated than the radio silence we have now.

And can I just pick you up on the statement "so if an update is not forthcoming it does not mean things are bad, it really means nothing happened" and point out that it can also be taken to mean that things are indeed bad, they just don't want to say so. Isn't semantics fun

Apropos of nothing - I've worked in engineering making moulds for plastic injection moulding and it can be a bloody nightmare if there's the smallest error because the moulds are damned expensive and any change almost always means making a new mould. The costs of doing this can spiral up out of sight.

Pegaz wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:52 pm Maybe it's time to stop setting any deadlines, then? Especially if you are not sure, you will fulfill them.
Responsible people dont do that.

That's not possible either. Maybe you've forgotten what happened when there was no estimated delivery back in December? A constant barrage of people asking why there was no estimated delivery date, attacks on project scheduling, accusations of repeats of the Vega+.

The amount of frustration is much higher when you have an ongoing project with zero estimation on when it might be done.

Otherwise, someone would think that this Q2 deadline is given for only one purpose - to fool and calm the impatient bakers...
The same thing applies to updates. If theres nothing new to say, dont say anything.

It wasn't a bad estimate. The keyboard & membrane actually turned out well as you can hear from the reviews by people seeing it at the retro events. It is only a specific problem with the composite keys that needs resolution. Had the keyboard been 100% then this deadline would have been met. What is very hard to predict is how long each fix-it iteration is and currently that is 3 weeks which seems to be an eternity to backers.

Saying nothing, again, damned if you do and damned if you don't. People begin to speculate that things have gone very wrong. A certain portion of people behave like alarm clocks and demand updates in the days leading up to every two weeks. If nothing is said, the hatred and bile begins usually by the same small group of professional malcontents. But ongoing work that is not publicly known is no longer mentioned until it is finished. You don't have to go back many pages in this thread to read about the disappointment of 28MHz gone.

Whoever promised an update every two weeks made a mistake. Nothing happens in two weeks - it should be a regular update once a month even to say nothing happened, and extra updates for real news.

"professional malcontents" oh dear, paranoid much? From what I've read there's a lot of tongue in cheek ribbing on the run up to the next promised update.

However you say whoever promised an update every two weeks, well, thing is, it was promised. It's perfectly valid to report "we are still waiting".

Speculation is something you'll just have to endure. You've already adopted a bunker mentality, so hunker down. Being this late on a delivery this is normal territory. You should be asking for forgiveness not lashing out.

I remember, back in... oh. 2006 or 2007, being very very excited for the new Open Pandora console. I had a GP32 and GP2X and this was gonna bring linux/ARM handhelds right up to date. Powerful hardware in a portable package.

Pre-orders started in 2008 and I jumped in for a measly (as it turned out) £200. After many, many, many stumbling blocks with manufacturing, I eventually received mine in 2011. Three years after the pre-order, and six years after the initial excitement.

It was badly mismanaged by the project leader, and this compounded with issues due to plastics, board manufacturing and small problems with components led to delay after delay and people got really shirty about it. The UK arm of the company collapsed eventually leaving a huge number of pre-orders unfilled. The German side of things managed to keep ticking over but many people lost their pre-orders - the price of the unit went up, with the profits going towards filling those UK pre-orders, but this only filled a few. It was a shitshow.

But Michael Mrozek, the German chap in charge now, kept his integrity and worked as hard as he could. To that end, when he announced the DragonBox Pyra, a successor to the Open Pandora, he went slowly, with much discussion on progress, careful choosing of manufacturing partners and transparency that is not seen in the crowd-funded arena today.

The campaign started around 2014/15, with pre-orders opening in 2016. It's still not here - issues with the case, bugs in the PCB and other problems have gotten in the way. It's not going to be delivered to customers until 2020, and that's a conservative estimate. And people are not cancelling, people are not moaning about it. We've all been there before and we know Michael is a good guy.

By comparison, the Next has been up on KS since what, 2017? A little over two years. Created by a team that has little experience of this sort of thing, with an order base so small that most companies will either push them to the back of their priorities list or worse not deal with them at all.

With all this in mind, if the cased Next comes out in the next two years I'll consider them to be lucky and above all dynamic. It's just the way these things are - unless you're Samsung or Apple or Intel or... Well, things move slowly.

Personally I'm not getting a Next because it's not what they advertised, but that's another story.

Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:58 am Whoever promised an update every two weeks made a mistake. Nothing happens in two weeks - it should be a regular update once a month even to say nothing happened, and extra updates for real news.

That would have been Henrique Olifiers himself in the Kickstarter Update dated April 2nd 2018 -
"...and from this update onwards, we’ll keep you posted every two weeks with whatever news we have on the case production."

If Mr. Olifiers is the only person who can post regular Kickstarter updates and is finding that tedious to do so then perhaps he needs someone else involved in the project to do it for him instead. Or at least write them for him to repost in his name.

ZxSpence wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:45 am "professional malcontents" oh dear, paranoid much? From what I've read there's a lot of tongue in cheek ribbing on the run up to the next promised update.

Are you new in the spectrum community? There is a small number of trolls who take every opportunity to attack for their own entertainment. This is not next-specific; it's across everything.

Asking questions, being legitimately concerned, wanting to know more is not being a "professional malcontent". It's actually reassuring that people show they are concerned - it only happens because people care. I hope it comes across that the people working on the project also care.

It is not acceptable that the composite keys on the keyboard, like DELETE, could be hit four times with three times coming up 0 instead of DELETE. The correction in the fpga would not have been acceptable due to the wide difference in time seen between the CAPS+0; the correction would slow the keyboard response perceptively. These things had to be redone otherwise they would have spoiled everyone's experience. We have to live with the fact each fix attempt takes 3-4 weeks. A manufacturing slot cannot be scheduled until the product is finished so we will have to live with lead times there being serially attached to the keyboard resolution. That's just how it is :-/

That would have been Henrique Olifiers himself in the Kickstarter Update dated April 2nd 2018 -
"...and from this update onwards, we’ll keep you posted every two weeks with whatever news we have on the case production."

I think he believed it was very close to being done and fix cycles for the keyboard could be done more quickly. Actually everyone involved has thought things were imminent for some time; the core and sd card contents have been frozen more than once.

Personally I'm not getting a Next because it's not what they advertised, but that's another story.

Maybe you will change your mind once you've seen one I think it's much better than what was promised - a traditional machine with a graphics accelerator in the pi that added sprites and produced hdmi video. Not really a "next" in my view. Now everything new is integrated into the spectrum architecture, the pi is optional and the system software extends the +3's. It does build on the +3.

If you're only into the classic machines, that's still there with the bonus that the machine is able to behave like a 48k, 128k, +3 or pentagon. The ula implementation for each of these three types is not quite 100% yet but it will get there. Maybe you want to help out in that department ?

Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:41 pm If you're only into the classic machines, that's still there with the bonus that the machine is able to behave like a 48k, 128k, +3 or pentagon. The ula implementation for each of these three types is not quite 100% yet but it will get there. Maybe you want to help out in that department ?

Do you need actual physical Spectrum Next hardware to work on these ULA implementations and test them out or can they be done via software emulators? Because if you need the hardware you can kind of see the flaw in asking people who haven't got it to do it.

A lot of people are helping out with knowledge and collaborating with people who do have boards. You might not personally want to get involved, but it’s not accurate to characterise people doing it as flawed.

Do you have anything positive to contribute at all, Bob?