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Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:49 pm
by 1024MAK
Controversial subjects do sometimes have this effect, especially if it's in the news or similar.

With regards to the ZX Vega+.
I'm not surprised, but it is very disappointing that bickering, fighting and what looks like deliberate sabotage, as well as possible incompetence has resulted in this outcome.

Mark

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:00 am
by PeteProdge
From that newly released video of a supposed ZX Vega+ V2, the games list is, um, slightly less than 1000...

Image

1994 - Ten Years After by Visions Software Factory
Albatrossity by Jonathan Cauldwell
Banger Management by Jonathan Cauldwell
Battery's Not Precluded by Jonathan Cauldwell
Byte Me by Jonathan Cauldwell
Coracle by Cronosoft
Egg Head by Crash/Jonathan Cauldwell
Egg Head 2 by Crash/Jonathan Cauldwell
Egg Head 3 by Jonathan Cauldwell
Egg Head 4 by Jonathan Cauldwell
Egg Head 5 by Jonathan Cauldwell
Haunted House by Your Sinclair/Jonathan Cauldwell
Izzy Wizzy by Cronosoft
Loco Bingo by Cronosoft
More Tea Vicar? by Cronosoft
Nifty Lifty by Visions Software Factory
Quantum Gardening by Cronosoft
Slubberdegullion by Cronosoft

Thanks to Mark Howe on the Retro Computers Ltd Vega Plus Public Discussion FB group for identifying that last one, I couldn't make it out.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:05 am
by Lee P
That'd be Slubberdegullion, by Jonathan Cauldwell.
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=23828

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:11 am
by PeteProdge
Lee Spoons wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:05 am That'd be Slubberdegullion, by Jonathan Cauldwell.
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=23828
Cheers. Both you and Mark Howe have identified this one, so I've edited and updated the post.

There you go then. 16 by Jonathan Cauldwell, 2 by Visions Software Factory.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:58 am
by chinnyhill10
Being careful here. Mods, I won't be offended if you scissor any or all of this!

What is the point of this video? The users know there are no consoles, Indiegogo know there are no consoles. How come this video surfaces just after the adjourned board meeting?

We know Clive has a proxy at these things and isn't well of late. Was this an attempt by RCL to sway his vote? Because it can't be an attempt to sway the users (look at the comments) or Indiegogo (who require production units).

I was surprised when the original unit came out given the 'unconventional' games licensing techniques used by the company. I was not surprised by the allegations that swirled around said games and the royalties after it was released. I was also unsurprised that some people suggested the Plus was an attempt to pay debts off from the original Vega.

With that in mind the entire thing was doomed from day 1. It was never coming out because there wasn't the money there to do it.

Why it drags on I have no idea. Wouldn't you just wind up the company at this stage and go "ah well we tried". It would all be forgotten in 6 months. And yet it rumbles on.

The project has had such a profound and bad effect on the community. I really just want to see the back of it and everyone involved in it for good.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:58 am
by 5MinuteRetro
PeteProdge wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:11 am There you go then. 16 by Jonathan Cauldwell, 2 by Visions Software Factory.
Good work for sure but at this juncture the number/lack of games, and their authorship, is little more than a distraction from the main event -- which is the continued non-delivery of the product proper.

For better or worse (mostly worse), I've followed this saga in great detail and I'm left with little doubt which of the two 'sides' is worthy of more trust -- and it's certainly not those currently running the show. How anyone sufficiently clued-up could've believed any of the 'delivery dates' promised over, say, the past six months is beyond me: it has been one blatant stalling tactic after another. But really, it's been clear from soon after the 'official launch' (way back in October 2016) that all was not well.

And on that point, I'm saddened by the conduct of some so-called journalists and supposedly independent commentators/podcasters. I'm not here to sling mud at particular people, and I certainly won't name names, but there are individuals around the periphery of the ZX Vega+ farrago who at best look deeply naive, and at worst complicit in goodness-knows-how-many everyday punters continuing to hand over money to RCL. Indeed, I have unsubscribed from one retro podcast precisely because one of the presenters has never apologised for his previous vociferous dismissal of and painting as 'trolls' anyone who raised fair concerns about the direction of this project. The mere sound of his voice now makes me queasy.

But what I *really* don't get at this point is why 25% shareholder, Sinclair Research, seems content for RCL to limp on in the way it is. We can't know why the recent shareholder meeting was adjourned -- and I don't profess to have any insight or clue -- but we do know for fact that Sinclair Research's shareholding (and vote) is key to bringing matters to a head, both now and over the past couple of years. Why on earth has it let it get this far?

Sheesh.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:06 am
by chinnyhill10
5MinuteRetro wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:58 am
PeteProdge wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:11 am There you go then. 16 by Jonathan Cauldwell, 2 by Visions Software Factory.

And on that point, I'm saddened by the conduct of some so-called journalists and supposedly independent commentators/podcasters. I'm not here to sling mud at particular people, and I certainly won't name names, but there are individuals around the periphery of the ZX Vega+ farrago who at best look deeply naive, and at worst complicit in goodness-knows-how-many everyday punters continuing to hand over money to RCL. Indeed, I have unsubscribed from one retro podcast precisely because one of the presenters has never apologised for his previous vociferous dismissal of and painting as 'trolls' anyone who raised fair concerns about the direction of this project. The mere sound of his voice now makes me queasy.
This has been a BIG problem for some time. Websites, podcasts and Youtubers who claim to report news but never question. Worse, some of them happily promote vapourware because they think they are onto a free product. If you are thinking of the same podcast I am thinking of then yeah, they thought they were onto a free console each.

When you run a website/podcast/Youtube channel you have a responsibility to the people who read/watch/listen to it. They trust you. I am acutely aware of this when I do reviews. Yes you can make honest mistakes but to never question or follow up problems really exposes those who are in it for themselves and see their ad revenue or dreams of a free console going up in smoke.

Also professional media outlets who just publish press releases without any kind of checking. We see this time and again with retro stuff. The only people who actually seem to question stuff these days are The Register (who are just today in trouble with the zombie corpse of Atari and their vapourware).

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:21 am
by 5MinuteRetro
chinnyhill10 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:06 am Yes you can make honest mistakes but to never question or follow up problems really exposes those who are in it for themselves and see their ad revenue or dreams of a free console going up in smoke.
...and there's the nub. I'd never think less of someone for having been hoodwinked by spivs but to nonchalantly shift perspective without any straightforward acknowledgement that you'd previously professed that all was rosy, well -- I don't want to listen again to the views of any individual who could act like that.

And you're right about The Register. Gareth Corfield has demonstrated the tenacity that all good journalists should wield, but that's sadly these days too often lacking. It's just a shame that there's a similar title/hack that went full sycophant on the matter, but has now fallen silent.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:56 am
by PeteProdge
chinnyhill10 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:58 am With that in mind the entire thing was doomed from day 1. It was never coming out because there wasn't the money there to do it.
I'm going to put my head above the parapet and say I honestly believed it would be coming out back in 2016. Some of the rather aggressive and immature language from Retro Computers's critics made me think that the project was just a plucky underdog and being held back by bitter fallouts.

By early 2017 of course, it was pretty obvious I was wrong, RCL weren't fulfilling promises. Yes, you can have delays with things, but nothing was adding up.

Having said that, some of the vitriol that is still hurled at David Levy and Suzanne Levy is sadly childish and personal. I wish a few of the ZX Vega+ critics would avoid the silly Photoshopped insults and the graffiti-on-a-toilet-door level of abuse, although my sympathy is now at graphene-thin levels.

I believe that anyone taking an impartial approach can see this ZX Vega+ project is doomed. Way too many porkie pies told by RCL.

I never backed it because there were always cheaper alternatives to the ZX Vega+, and if you've watched ChinnyVision, there's one of a cheap Android gaming tablet that doesn't just emulate the Spectrum, it does just about every system you could expect from the emulation scene these days.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:59 am
by PeterJ
chinnyhill10 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:58 am Being careful here. Mods, I won't be offended if you scissor any or all of this!
It's all fine.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:18 pm
by 5MinuteRetro
PeteProdge wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:56 am I'm going to put my head above the parapet and say I honestly believed it would be coming out back in 2016. Some of the rather aggressive and immature language from Retro Computers's critics made me think that the project was just a plucky underdog and being held back by bitter fallouts.

By early 2017 of course, it was pretty obvious I was wrong, RCL weren't fulfilling promises. Yes, you can have delays with things, but nothing was adding up.

Having said that, some of the vitriol that is still hurled at David Levy and Suzanne Levy is sadly childish and personal. I wish a few of the ZX Vega+ critics would avoid the silly Photoshopped insults and the graffiti-on-a-toilet-door level of abuse, although my sympathy is now at graphene-thin levels.
I agree with all of that.

It seems reasonable to have believed it was going to happen up until around the end of 2016. Indeed, I tapped up an old journo colleague who had a brief hands-on with the device at Wired 2016, and what he said to me then -- albeit it brief -- made me think that perhaps my doubts were unfounded. So yeah, I can see that even someone close to the scene might still have expected a successful outcome at that point.

And yep, all the silly stuff on social media is unfortunate -- not least because it aided RCL's go-to defence of online 'trolls' holding up progress. But that defence, tenuous though it always was, now looks utterly ridiculous. Sticks and stones and all that.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:27 pm
by PaddyC13
I have to say I am surprised that Sir Clive has not stepped in sooner (or his son on his behalf). One can only think his health is not good and/or he has loyalty to the folks at RCL. I wrote off my £100+ long ago and do not expect to see the console or money again. If something turns up then it is a bonus but looking at the Vega on the video it is not pretty and not what Ron Dickinson designed.

All very sad...

Paddy

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:59 pm
by druellan
PeteProdge wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:00 am From that newly released video of a supposed ZX Vega+ V2, the games list is, um, slightly less than 1000...
This is a blessing. Imagine trying to press those super stiff buttons on more than 20 games...

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:10 pm
by Seven.FFF
Did you see the tube of UHU glue in that stupid video, that they probably stuck the screen on with. FFS!

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:13 pm
by Ralf
I have to say I am surprised that Sir Clive has not stepped in sooner (or his son on his behalf)
I guess he doesn't give a damn about it. He put some signature, collected some bank transfer and that was all his involvement into Vega+ project. He's not interested in it and doesn't feel responsible for it.

As for the "trolls", yes, they give a good excuse for RCL - look we didn't do our job because we were attacked and harrased all the time. On the other hand, personally I have a low opinion of David Levy and feel that the trolls by their harassment were doing some kind of justice to him.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:21 pm
by PeteProdge
druellan wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:59 pm
PeteProdge wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:00 am From that newly released video of a supposed ZX Vega+ V2, the games list is, um, slightly less than 1000...
This is a blessing. Imagine trying to press those super stiff buttons on more than 20 games...
Daley Thompson - The Arthritis Years.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:24 pm
by PeteProdge
PaddyC13 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:27 pm I have to say I am surprised that Sir Clive has not stepped in sooner (or his son on his behalf).
To be quite blunt, Sir Clive Sinclair is not the hero of retrogaming that some make him out to be. He's really stubborn, HATES the fact that Spectrum was used for gaming and well, let's be honest, decided the future of motoring was in some tiny plastic cart powered by a washing machine motor that left you nose-level with a lorry's exhaust pipe.

Inventors are often lauded for their brave innovation, but I think a critical eye needs to be cast. John Logie Baird is often credited with inventing television, but his contraption was massively inefficient and superceded by rival technology within a few months.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:36 pm
by PROSM
PeteProdge wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:24 pm
PaddyC13 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:27 pm I have to say I am surprised that Sir Clive has not stepped in sooner (or his son on his behalf).
To be quite blunt, Sir Clive Sinclair is not the hero of retrogaming that some make him out to be. He's really stubborn, HATES the fact that Spectrum was used for gaming and well, let's be honest, decided the future of motoring was in some tiny plastic cart powered by a washing machine motor that left you nose-level with a lorry's exhaust pipe.

Inventors are often lauded for their brave innovation, but I think a critical eye needs to be cast. John Logie Baird is often credited with inventing television, but his contraption was massively inefficient and superceded by rival technology within a few months.
I totally agree with you there. In my opinion, the real heroes were Rick Dickinson, Richard Altwasser and Steve Vickers. I feel that these three are the true creators of the Spectrum. They actually built the hardware, with Vickers writing the ROM, Altwasser designing the hardware and memory-efficient video mode and Dickinson creating the legendary case. Sinclair was really just directing them and using the revenue from the computers for his more ambitious products that were somewhat questionable in their usefulness and purpose. That isn't to say that Sir Clive wasn't a good inventor, just that some of his ideas weren't thought out very well.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:40 pm
by beanz

And yep, all the silly stuff on social media is unfortunate -- not least because it aided RCL's go-to defence of online 'trolls' holding up progress. But that defence, tenuous though it always was, now looks utterly ridiculous. Sticks and stones and all that.
Yup it really didn't aid them...not sure how exactly ANYONE would buy the idea that a few negative words on social media would halt production of a physical object.

"Sorry lads, shut down the production line, someone posted that we are scammers on twitter again".

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:57 pm
by Seven.FFF
PeteProdge wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:24 pm To be quite blunt, Sir Clive Sinclair is not the hero of retrogaming that some make him out to be. He's really stubborn, HATES the fact that Spectrum was used for gaming and well, let's be honest, decided the future of motoring was in some tiny plastic cart powered by a washing machine motor that left you nose-level with a lorry's exhaust pipe.
I agree. To some extent, Sir Clive got the Dr Levy he deserved. It's just really unfortunate that we all got him too.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:03 pm
by PeterJ
I won't ever be able to see anything bad about Sir Clive! As for the Vega+ it sadly caused a huge amount of damage and long term hurt to the community.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:12 pm
by chinnyhill10
PeteProdge wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:56 am

I never backed it because there were always cheaper alternatives to the ZX Vega+, and if you've watched ChinnyVision, there's one of a cheap Android gaming tablet that doesn't just emulate the Spectrum, it does just about every system you could expect from the emulation scene these days.
And that's basically it. People assume you need a state of the art iPhone or Samsung to do this stuff when a cheap tablet from 2013 works just fine. Decent screen, ran everything I threw at it. And that was what, 50 quid? In fact second hand (and mine is currently on Ebay) even less!

Or if you want to throw your money around, for as little as 100 you can have something quite nice indeed that runs a new version of Android.

It's all nuts. A product that is only selling on the Sinclair name. It's kind of fun when you find a Megadrive handheld for 10 quid. Bit crap but works. But for the kind of money they wanted for a single format device and on a format that is well emulated on everything from the Amiga to the iPhone X, nah!

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:18 pm
by chinnyhill10
PeteProdge wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:24 pm
PaddyC13 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:27 pm I have to say I am surprised that Sir Clive has not stepped in sooner (or his son on his behalf).
To be quite blunt, Sir Clive Sinclair is not the hero of retrogaming that some make him out to be. He's really stubborn, HATES the fact that Spectrum was used for gaming and well, let's be honest, decided the future of motoring was in some tiny plastic cart powered by a washing machine motor that left you nose-level with a lorry's exhaust pipe.
He seems to get a free pass over the QL which saw hardware promised that didn't exist, bugged hardware and delay after delay. Oh and the money was taken up front and promises made about delivery dates that were broken again and again. Sound familiar?

Sinclair and others doing this heavily influenced Alan Sugar's policy of not announcing products until they physically existed. Amstrad product launches from the 464 onwards had demo machines air freighted in from the production line (i.e ahead of the boat) for the people attending to use.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:21 pm
by Spud
PROSM wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:36 pm That isn't to say that Sir Clive wasn't a good inventor, just that some of his ideas weren't thought out very well.
I would imagine for most inventors: for every decent invention there is a bunch of arse that came before it and likely after it.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:22 pm
by chinnyhill10
PeterJ wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:03 pm I won't ever be able to see anything bad about Sir Clive!
And this is why RCL made sure he was on-board. The friendly uncle image. Not the man who used to promise stuff that didn't exist and caused his company to go bust by spending all the profits on projects that went nowhere.