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Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:41 am
by 1024MAK
The dongle on the first QL machines may well have been a publicity stunt really. The real problem was that Clive wanted an advanced OS and an advanced BASIC in ROM and have a ROM cartridge slot. All in a 64K byte memory area. Once the design of the custom chips had been finalised, the size of this memory area was fixed.

But the development of the OS and BASIC did not go the way Sinclair expected. So Sinclair arranged for another OS to be developed. Because the combined size of the OS and BASIC was greater than intended, it did not fit in the 32K byte space that had been planned to be used. The first QLs were supplied with two 16K byte ROMs on the main board, with one 16K byte ROM in the dongle. A total of 48K bytes of ROM.

Sinclair could have fitted two 32k byte EPROM chips in the QL. On the issue 5 boards there are two sockets that can take a variety of different ROMs/EPROMs, but both have to be same type. Later a modification was done so that a 32K EPROM and a 16K EPROM could be fitted. The final ROMs were mask programmed ROM chips, one 32K bytes in size and one 16K bytes in size.

The intended memory map was this:

Code: Select all

FFFFF
      Reserved - expansion I/O
C0000
      Reserved - add on RAM
40000
      Main RAM (96K bytes)
28000
      Screen RAM (32K bytes)
20000
      I/O devices
18000
     Reserved (I/O devices)
10000
      ROM cartridge slot (32K bytes)
08000
      ROM (system ROM containing OS and SuperBASIC) (32K bytes)
00000 
This is how it ended up:-

Code: Select all

FFFFF
      Reserved - expansion I/O
C0000
      Reserved - add on RAM
40000
      Main RAM (96K bytes)
28000
      Screen RAM (32K bytes)
20000
      I/O devices
18000
      Reserved (I/O devices)
10000
      ROM cartridge slot (16K bytes)
0C000
      ROM (system ROM containing OS and SuperBASIC) (48K bytes)
00000 
The cartridge slot at only 16K bytes capacity was of no practical use as a way of software distribution. So in reality, it was a waste of time. Was used for some "toolkit" software and some hardware interfaces though. I don't think it being its original intended size of 32K bytes would have made any difference.

I don't have an early version of the QL. They are rare, as Sinclair either replaced the whole machine or the PCBs after the owners returned the first QLs (Sinclair had a general recall for all the first QLs).

Anyway, a while ago, someone in the Retro community got hold of an early QL complete with dongle. They were expecting no end of problems when they powered it up. But to their surprise, it worked. They could load and run software off the microdrives. The machine was usable. See this QL Forum post.

You are right though that it was very common in the fledgling home computer industry for products to be late to market. In fact, this was not limited to the home computer industry, but was the typical way that a lot of small businesses operated.

That's why consumer TV programmes always advised viewers to be careful when ordering from mail order companies.

So the Vega+ / Retro computers is no different to any other company that has failed it's customers. That's not unique to the computer boom in the early 1980's in my opinion.

Sinclair may have got in trouble for late delivery of machines. But their customers did get a working machine eventually.

Mark

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:50 pm
by chinnyhill10
PeterJ wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:30 am
Ralf wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:22 am I didn't knew about Levy's involvement with Enterprise machine.

Enterprise was technically a good machine, yet it turned out to be a commercial failure. Maker your own conclusions but for me it speaks about business skills of guys in charge. And now the history repeats.
It arrived at a similar time to the 16Bit machines, so was just too late. Sad. The Sam had similar issues
The 16 bits had next to no impact in 1985. Yes the ST and Amiga were announced and technically speaking out there towards the end of the year but they were pretty much made of unobtainium as far as the end users were concerned. Expensive, niche and no software support. It's only '88/89 that they start to have much bearing on things with the price drops and the retail packs with games.

Nobody is sitting around in '85 going "I won't get an Enterprise as I'll get an ST instead". The Enterprise failed because it was late, overpriced and consumers and retailers had been burnt by multiple new systems failing. Amstrad already had established links with major retailers and a brandname so had no trouble getting their units on shelves and then getting the punters to trust them. Enterprise, by their own admission, struggled.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:32 pm
by PeterJ
[mention]chinnyhill10[/mention], It was just too late, the market was already saturated by then. It went the same way as many of the other machines of the time. Spectrums, CPCs and C64s ruled the roost. Nothing was going to change that. It was late in terms of the 8bit machines, and whilst it may have not had a big impact (agree with you), I think it was part of the issue with new more powerful machines being discussed.

I still wish I purchased a load before they were shipped abroad, I could have retired on the profits!

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:29 pm
by PeterJ
Sir Clive is no longer a director of RCL. Poor health has been given as the reason.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:38 pm
by Mike Davies
PeterJ wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:29 pm Sir Clive is no longer a director of RCL. Poor health has been given as the reason.
There's some misdirection going on in RCL's statement.

Sir Clive never was a Director or Shareholder of RCL. The Companies House records show that it's Sinclair Research Ltd as the Shareholder (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... 5/officers), which Sir Clive controls. However, the duties as Director and Shareholder fell to a representative nominated by Sinclair Research. That person was Lady Angie Sinclair (Angie Bowness), she signed the Shareholders Agreement in November 2014 as the nominated representative in both capacities.

What I'm a little fuzzy about is that Lady Sinclair resigned the SRL Directorship of RCL in early 2017 (I can't remember what the source is for that), before the acrimonious/public divorce apparently initiated by Sir Clive while he was hospitalised (as reported by the Daily Mail in April 2017). Perhaps that resignation was rescinded by another representative of SRL thereafter, and that's why the Companies House records weren't updated.

As far as I can tell Sir Clive has not been involved in RCL, except to receive a £10k payment, and to weigh in that RCL have no interest/scope in Commodore 64 retro devices.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:41 pm
by bob_fossil
Just when you thought this all running out of puff, a load of newly leaked documents have appeared on the 'unofficial Vega news web site'* over the last few days, which cast doubt on whether Vega can even preceded by the letters Z and X and whether more than 10 were produced.

* Not linked to as I'm not sure whether it's OK to link to from here. Typing the first two words of this topic's title into your favourite search engine will get you there.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:02 pm
by 5MinuteRetro
bob_fossil wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:41 pm Just when you thought this all running out of puff, a load of newly leaked documents have appeared on the 'unofficial Vega news web site'* over the last few days, which cast doubt on whether Vega can even preceded by the letters Z and X and whether more than 10 were produced.

* Not linked to as I'm not sure whether it's OK to link to from here. Typing the first two words of this topic's title into your favourite search engine will get you there.
I've followed this whole debacle closely, if mostly quietly, but... I'm as far away as ever tonight from understanding Levy and Martin's motivation and/or end game here. I'm hoping tomorrow will at the very least be satisfying; but I'm hoping more that the weeks and months following will at last be truly revealing,

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:52 am
by Ralf
Yes, it's probably true that they just built only a few prototypes and these prototypes had a lot of faults and they never corrected these faults as they were losing all their energy for legal battles.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:02 pm
by druellan

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:27 pm
by PeterJ
Mine has not yet arrived, but it does not look as though I'm missing much!

It looks as though RCL have lost the rights to use the Sinclair brand from August 7

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45024267

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:13 pm
by pavero

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:14 pm
by PeterJ
Wow, that's a good profit!

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:02 am
by PaddyC13
Watched the video and I have to say I cannot believe RCL sent these devices out. The packaging alone is unbelievable - what a load of tosh calling it ethical! As for the device itself - total junk and an insult to Rick Dickinson's original concept and memory. I cannot believe I fell for this one and gave RCL my money. Still, lesson learned. To be honest, you would be better off with a Nintendo DSi and ZXDS.

Paddy

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:16 am
by Ralf
I wonder how it feels when you wait for something for years, when you have some crazy big hopes about it and when it finally comes, it's total crap.

If I understand correctly:
- no instructions
- things rattling losely in the box
- no power cord
- scratched screens
- foils falling away
- very limited choice of games
- unplayable, buttons have to be pressed very hard

plus probably much more.
Genuinely it seems like they are sending the failed prototypes to people.
Maybe it's finally time to close this saga.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:13 pm
by druellan
Ralf wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:16 am - unplayable, buttons have to be pressed very hard
Yeah, that's the point for me. We can discuss the quality of the thing and the presentation, but those buttons are prototype-level. No one in the company cared enough to bring a prototype home and play with it, or do something about the problem.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:25 pm
by R-Tape
Incredible! Credit where it's due - it takes steel balls, a titanium jaw & a brass neck to unleash that monstrosity, and they've created a new wellspring of Speccy folklore that makes SQIJ look positively decent. It'll be a collector's item too, you won't be able to buy one for love nor money!

I stopped following this saga a long time ago, so I'm not sure why my games aren't on the list as I gave permission years ago and never retracted it. Seeing the finished product I should be thankful...

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:29 pm
by Seven.FFF
Clearly your games are not as attractive as 19 different versions of Egghead!

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:42 pm
by R-Tape
Seven.FFF wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:29 pm Clearly your games are not as attractive as 19 different versions of Egghead!
Thinking about it those crappy buttons would be the perfect solution to Stamp Quest's oversensitive key response. It might even render Rally Driver playable!

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:06 pm
by beanz
Laughable, and another clear attempt at delaying...they'll take the criticism and use it as an excuse not to ship the other 4000 units till they've addressed the concerns.

The way that screen is mounted with the mounting tabs and what looks like leaked glue (at the topped corners) is childlike. Obviously these are prototypes as others have said/suggested.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:27 pm
by Ralf
I stopped following this saga a long time ago, so I'm not sure why my games aren't on the list as I gave permission years ago and never retracted it.
Was it a handwritten paper with lots of legal paragraphs? I guess no ;)

I suppose at this moment they take "trust no one" stand and so decided to include one stuff by Jonathan Cauldwell who seems to be maybe the biggest friend of this project.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:44 pm
by beanz
Ralf wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:27 pm
I stopped following this saga a long time ago, so I'm not sure why my games aren't on the list as I gave permission years ago and never retracted it.
Was it a handwritten paper with lots of legal paragraphs? I guess no ;)

I suppose at this moment they take "trust no one" stand and so decided to include one stuff by Jonathan Cauldwell who seems to be maybe the biggest friend of this project.
And from what I saw half his games don't actually work on it.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:59 pm
by Einar Saukas
druellan wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:13 pm
Ralf wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:16 am - unplayable, buttons have to be pressed very hard
Yeah, that's the point for me. We can discuss the quality of the thing and the presentation, but those buttons are prototype-level. No one in the company cared enough to bring a prototype home and play with it, or do something about the problem.
They obviously knew about this problem. In a previously released official video, they were clearly trying to hide this issue.

The truth is, producing a playable device wasn't their goal. The actual goal was delivering the cheapest possible device, regardless of how crap it was. They hoped this would prevent Sinclair Research from intervening (and it worked!), since they can now claim "We have now delivered it as promised, it's not our fault that a few trolls are complaining about it!"

Also it's easy for anyone to sue them for not delivering anything. However "unplayable crap" is a somewhat subjective evaluation, much harder to prove in a court of law.


PS: Dammit! I decided a while ago I would never waste my time again on either RCL or WoS issues. There goes my decision...

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:01 pm
by Seven.FFF
beanz wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:06 pm what looks like leaked glue (at the topped corners)
There was a tube in of glue in one of their videos, that they didn't even bother to move out of shot. Narcissistic psychopaths.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:12 pm
by Einar Saukas
beanz wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:44 pm
Ralf wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:27 pm Was it a handwritten paper with lots of legal paragraphs? I guess no ;)

I suppose at this moment they take "trust no one" stand and so decided to include one stuff by Jonathan Cauldwell who seems to be maybe the biggest friend of this project.
And from what I saw half his games don't actually work on it.
I will be surprised if more than 1 game works. The prototype had a bug that prevented it from recognizing multiple keymap files, that probably wasn't fixed.

Re: ZX Vega+ Discussion

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:47 pm
by Einar Saukas
R-Tape wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:25 pmI stopped following this saga a long time ago, so I'm not sure why my games aren't on the list as I gave permission years ago and never retracted it. Seeing the finished product I should be thankful...
I never retracted my permissions either. On the contrary, I actually spent time over a year ago contacting developers to obtain more permissions for them, to help compensate the ones they lost.

Denying permissions wouldn't have helped anything. It would have only reduced its usefulness for end users, and it would give them a reason to delay the release indefinitely. Also I was hoping they would have to pay the proper royalties eventually, which in my case (and almost everybody I contacted) would go to GOSH charity.

Now I'm glad they didn't use any of my games, or anybody else's. I wouldn't want to see them running (but not really working) on this piece of crap. I feel sorry for Jonathan...