Specchums and the coronavirus.

[R-Tape]

[mention]Juan F. Ramirez[/mention], when we're looking back on this thread, posts like this (the fred mask) will be terrifying!

Is anyone wearing a mask when out?

You cannot enter public places - shops, supermarkets, offices etc. - without masks and gloves here, so yes, although not all of the time, for example not when I am driving.

Gloves too? I didn't realise. Any kind of glove? Was there any debate over whether masks were useful or not? In the UK we're procrastinating on this, to say the least.

[Firefox]

Would anyone else care to admit they're doing fine under lockdown? It's not really affected me, and I'm enjoying not having to commute. I feel rather guilty mentioning it though, given the enormous amount of misery and suffering almost everyone else is enduring.

I finished my last contract just before Xmas, and I usually have several months off between jobs anyway until the next tempting one comes up... But now I'm wondering if I'm going to find work this year.

Oh well, it's a bit lonely, but I try to concentrate on having lots of time to tinker with my own projects, read, and do box-set marathons.

How cheap are Easter eggs now?! Maybe I got lucky and picked a quiet time, but the big supermarket near me was a surprisingly pleasant experience.

Not many Easter eggs left, but I liberated a couple of posh chocolate bunnies.

At first the supermarket own-brand bunnies seemed a good deal, but when I picked one up I realised that they were the same volume but less than half the weight, and probably not as nice chocolate.

I experimented with going to the apocalyptic supermarket about 7pm this week rather than early afternoon. There were only a few minutes' queuing to get in, but everyone inside seemed more tense somehow. *shrug*

Is anyone wearing a mask when out? In case it becomes recommended advice, I got some made up by the local fabric shop. The elastic's a bit tight, so it gives me goblin ears. It makes my specs steam up as well, but there are ways to ameliorate that.

This'll put the staff at Sainsburies at ease...

I would like one, but I've no idea where to get one from.

I might just do this next week.

[R-Tape]

I would like one, but I've no idea where to get one from.

Aah you'll be able to find one: every city, town and village in the UK has these crochet fiends. Under normal circumstances they're making bloody cute tea coseys or whatever. Time for them to stand up and be counted!

I might just do this next week.

"Hi, I'd like to join Ninja School."

"What are your skills?"

"I can decapitate a man from 100m with a throwing star, and flying kick an alsatian."

Yes, yes, but how deeply can you furrow your brow?

[Alessandro]

Gloves too? I didn't realise. Any kind of glove? Was there any debate over whether masks were useful or not?

Plastic disposable gloves of course. However they are really mandatory in supermarkets and shops only; today I went out to buy some bread, and at the bakery there was no need to wear them - moreover, I did not feel like wasting a pair of gloves just for that.

Masks, on the other hand, are pretty much ubiquitous. You will be refused entry almost everywhere if you do not wear one. Local administrations are distributing them to families that include elderly and ill people, in difficult social conditions etc. You can also find them at pharmacies now, although for the first weeks of lockdown they were either impossible to find, or sold at highly inflated prices.

[+3code]

Gloves too? I didn't realise. Any kind of glove? Was there any debate over whether masks were useful or not?

Plastic disposable gloves of course. However they are really mandatory in supermarkets and shops only; today I went out to buy some bread, and at the bakery there was no need to wear them - moreover, I did not feel like wasting a pair of gloves just for that.

Here the plastic disposable gloves are mandatory in the supermarket, they give you a couple (free) every time you enter, and there are hand-sanitizer dispensers at the entrance that you must use before entering. Masks at the moment are not mandatory, there has been much debate about that, although most people use them, it seems the typical photo of Japanese tourists.

[R-Tape]

Plastic disposable gloves of course. However they are really mandatory in supermarkets and shops only; today I went out to buy some bread, and at the bakery there was no need to wear them - moreover, I did not feel like wasting a pair of gloves just for that.

Not "of course" at all! You might be surprised how distant the UK is away from your mode of thinking, whether we should be or not. You may still get a curious glance if you're wearing a mask (Fred or no Fred).

What are the mask rules/not rules in countries other than Italy?

Masks, on the other hand, are pretty much ubiquitous. You will be refused entry almost everywhere if you do not wear one. Local administrations are distributing them to families that include elderly and ill people, in difficult social conditions etc. You can also find them at pharmacies now, although for the first weeks of lockdown they were either impossible to find, or sold at highly inflated prices.

The UK government has been pushing the idea that "the science isn't clear" on masks. I can understand it, because we're stubborn buggers and it might be culturally perturbing, and there were concerns that it would make it harder for key-workers to get them if everyone bought them. However, I think when we start to reduce the restrictions, they'll have to find a way to backtrack and say that many of us should wear masks. And they'll be fighting a rearguard battle too, as various parts of the media start shouting from their lofty positions of hindsight.

[R-Tape]

Here the plastic disposable gloves are mandatory in the supermarket, they give you a couple (free) every time you enter, and there are hand-sanitizer dispensers at the entrance that you must use before entering. Masks at the moment are not mandatory, there has been much debate about that, although most people use them, it seems the typical photo of Japanese tourists.

Interesting. In the UK we haven't even started talking about gloves yet, but it sounds like we're in a similar position to Spain over masks. It is common to see hand-sanitiser though.

[R-Tape]

When I was in our local supermarket on Tuesday evening, at one point there were three men (including me) trying to find items in the same aisle that were unfamiliar to each of us.... l was looking for filo pastry for my mum.

This was a really nice snapshot into the world of someone having to 'properly' work at the moment. That doesn't include me, but I was particularly tickled by the quote above. When this all kicked off, I somehow managed to wrestle a delivery slot out of Tesco for my Ma, and right at the top of her list was suet for feeding the bleeding birds! She must have the best fed starlings in the world!

[1024MAK]

The UK government has been pushing the idea that "the science isn't clear" on masks. I can understand it, because we're stubborn buggers and it might be culturally perturbing, and there were concerns that it would make it harder for key-workers to get them if everyone bought them. However, I think when we start to reduce the restrictions, they'll have to find a way to backtrack and say that many of us should wear masks. And they'll be fighting a rearguard battle too, as various parts of the media start shouting from their lofty positions of hindsight.

The trouble with masks is that you really should have to define which category is being debated over. Simple cloth masks, and simple breathable fabric masks are not effective at preventing the wearer from breathing in virus particles. These virus particles are extremely tiny. They are far too small to be caught by such masks. However, they may reduce the amount of water droplets (which may contain virus particles) that a human produces from their mouth and nose. Or reduce the velocity of the water droplets (and hence the distance traveled).

Only the full professional medical grade masks (with full face mask) are going to help to reduce a wearers chance of breathing in the virus.

From a personal point of view, as someone who suffers from hey fever during May, June and early July, I am not looking forward to having to wear any kind of mask.

Mark

[1bvl109]

I might just do this next week.

The real ninja here is of course the "Christmas tree".

[dfzx]

Interesting. In the UK we haven't even started talking about gloves yet

People don't seem to quite get the gloves thing. My postman has been wearing blue gloves for a couple of weeks now. He gets in his van, drives to my neighbour, takes them their post, gets back in the van, rubs his eyes, drives to me, finds my post, drops it in my postbox, scratches his ear, gets back in his van...

I'm not sure what he thinks the gloves are achieving.

[dfzx]

The trouble with masks is that you really should have to define which category is being debated over.

There's also the psychological message, saying to people you recognise there's an issue and you're making an effort to help keep people safe. This point was mentioned in one of the Downing Street briefings this week.

[PeterJ]

Interesting. In the UK we haven't even started talking about gloves yet

People don't seem to quite get the gloves thing. My postman has been wearing blue gloves for a couple of weeks now. He gets in his van, drives to my neighbour, takes them their post, gets back in the van, rubs his eyes, drives to me, finds my post, drops it in my postbox, scratches his ear, gets back in his van...

I'm not sure what he thinks the gloves are achieving.

You get the same thing in takeaways. They wear gloves to handle the food, then the same person takes your money whilst still wearing the gloves.

[1bvl109]

The trouble with masks is that you really should have to define which category is being debated over.

There's also the psychological message, saying to people you recognise there's an issue and you're making an effort to help keep people safe.

That's right, but if you wear a mask, what is the point in restricting yourself to one which doesn't increase your protection? See https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/179 ... ses-tb.pdf

Of course there can be valid reason, e.g.

• You don't have access to a high efficiency mask e.g. you can't afford it

• You have some medical condition, which makes it impossible to use them, e.g. it might be to hard, to breath through them

Now reason one should not be a real reason at all in any developed country in my opinion.

[Ast A. Moore]

Simple cloth masks, and simple breathable fabric masks are not effective at preventing the wearer from breathing in virus particles.

Moreover, a beard—especially a full beard—reduces the effectiveness of such a mask to almost zero.

I ain’t shaving mine off.

[PeterJ]

Only the full professional medical grade masks (with full face mask) are going to help to reduce a wearers chance of breathing in the virus.

Agreed, but the issue is where are these going to come from if we allegedly don't have enough for NHS and carers.

We had to wear masks in certain areas of Vietnam when we were there just before the lockdown. I didn't enjoy the experience at all. It felt very restrictive, but I suppose you would get used to it.

[MatGubbins]

Of course there can be valid reason, e.g.

• You don't have access to a high efficiency mask e.g. you can't afford it

• You have some medical condition, which makes it impossible to use them, e.g. it might be to hard, to breath through them

Now reason one should not be a real reason at all in any developed country in my opinion.

How about you can't get access to a high efficiency mask because they're not in stock, and when they do come into stock they are £150 each, and you don't have that amount of money left in the bank.

[PeterJ]

[mention]MatGubbins[/mention],

Change of subject, but have we got you latest copy of Bomb Munchies Mat? It would save you having to link externally?

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=30068

**EDIT** Mat has confirmed that we have the latest release of Bomb Munchies Version 2060 as 2.060

Apologies for derailing the topic.

[1024MAK]

There's also the psychological message, saying to people you recognise there's an issue and you're making an effort to help keep people safe.

That's right, but if you wear a mask, what is the point in restricting yourself to one which doesn't increase your protection? See https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/179 ... ses-tb.pdf

Of course there can be valid reason, e.g.

• You don't have access to a high efficiency mask e.g. you can't afford it

• You have some medical condition, which makes it impossible to use them, e.g. it might be to hard, to breath through them

Now reason one should not be a real reason at all in any developed country in my opinion.

Both of which gets back to the following counter arguments:

• Most people unconsciously keep to a certain level of risk taking, if you tell them to wear masks (simple fabric or cloth type) it may not offer any significant protection, but they may ‘think’ that because they “are protected”, they may no longer make the same effort to stay two metres apart.
• If governments suggest, recommend, or require a mask with better protection, such as the types used by medical staff, only the well off are going to be able to afford them, and supply is never going to keep up with demand. There also is the very real risk that this will affect supplies to hospitals, doctors, nursing homes, care homes, other medical staff, dentists and key workers who absolutely need them.

Of course one other aspect, is the people being too afraid to go out to work. In the U.K. various workplaces have suspended some or all operations even though they were not required to do so. It’s likely that the government will want these operations to resume along with the easing of the current restrictions. But how do you encourage people to go back to work? How do you give them something tangible?

Personally I’m not convinced. All it takes is for a story to break where someone tested a fabric or cloth mask or maybe someone who always wears such a mask gets infected and dies, and suddenly many people will loose the trust of the government advice. I think this could be very dangerous.

Welcome to hear other points of view... or to be corrected if I’ve dropped the ball (medical things are well beyond my skill set).

Mark

[1024MAK]

We had to wear masks in certain areas of Vietnam when we were there just before the lockdown. I didn't enjoy the experience at all. It felt very restrictive, but I suppose you would get used to it.

And that’s another problem. If a mask is uncomfortable to wear, people will either keep fiddling with it, or keep removing it and then putting the same one back on. Both activities could result in transferring virus to your mouth, nose or eyes.

I wear spectacles, I often find myself “adjusting” their position, even though I try not to, and even though within minutes they will be back to the same position they were in. Especially when I am suffering from hey fever or it’s a hot day. After thirty odd years I should be used to them by now!

Mark

[1bvl109]

I succumb to the implicit reminder viewtopic.php?p=35706#p35706 that we are not supposed to discuss politics too much.

[PeterJ]

I succumb to the implicit reminder viewtopic.php?p=35706#p35706 that we are not supposed to discuss politics too much.

Hi [mention]1bvl109[/mention] there was certainly no intention of anything implicit there. Its not the way I do things. I just felt bad ruining the flow of the conversation (and was not relevant to the discussion) and [mention]MatGubbins[/mention] provided me with an answer to my query via PM.

We do ask people to generally avoid politics as it can often end up messy. I do however (in this thread) find it extremely interesting how different governments are handling things. You often understand much more than you get from the news when you hear it first hand.

This is the rule (I prefer guidelines) on politics:

app.php/rules#rule-1c

This thread falls under this rule:

app.php/rules#rule-1k

[1bvl109]

Of course one other aspect, is the people being too afraid to go out to work. In the U.K. various workplaces have suspended some or all operations even though they were not required to do so. It’s likely that the government will want these operations to resume along with the easing of the current restrictions. But how do you encourage people to go back to work? How do you give them something tangible?

I don't really see how this relates to the question which mask you shoukd wear, if you have to or want to.

Personally I’m not convinced. All it takes is for a story to break where someone tested a fabric or cloth mask or maybe someone who always wears such a mask gets infected and dies, and suddenly many people will loose the trust of the government advice. I think this could be very dangerous.

You only have a certain amount of leeway, you can give to possible irrational behavior.

[1bvl109]

How about you can't get access to a high efficiency mask because they're not in stock, and when they do come into stock they are £150 each, and you don't have that amount of money left in the bank.

This is not the situation I see online, but I don't want to weasle out here. So depending on the kind of law you have at your disposal, sue your state or get it, if you can, by [insert illegal action, which might be at your disposal here]. Regardless of Brexit, this might work for most european countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ ... man_Rights

[AndyC]

We had to wear masks in certain areas of Vietnam when we were there just before the lockdown. I didn't enjoy the experience at all. It felt very restrictive, but I suppose you would get used to it.

And that’s another problem. If a mask is uncomfortable to wear, people will either keep fiddling with it, or keep removing it and then putting the same one back on. Both activities could result in transferring virus to your mouth, nose or eyes.

I wear spectacles, I often find myself “adjusting” their position, even though I try not to, and even though within minutes they will be back to the same position they were in. Especially when I am suffering from hey fever or it’s a hot day. After thirty odd years I should be used to them by now!

Mark

Yeah, this is one of the main reasons for the "science on masks isn't decided" type of comment, as much as I like the "government are incompetent" argument usually. There are also issues with the fact that home use masks are going to be significantly re-used in a way they wouldn't typically be in a hospital and that increases the likelihood you'll transfer the virus onto the mask and then put it right up against your face. It really isn't the no-brainer argument some people imagine and we might actually be better off all not wearing masks on the whole.