World of Spectrum....

Y'know, other stuff, Sinclair related.
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Einar Saukas
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Einar Saukas »

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 amIt was also known to people working on the data and testing the scripts that the database would be rapidly increasing with a lot more information. It's not practical to use ZXDB with that amount of data - or any site via SQL statements.
Are you trying to convince us that Spectrum Computing (and other SQL based sites) shouldn't be feasible?

Interesting.

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 amEinar also knew this, so when he was publicly asking for the database schema, he knew full well those modules hadn't been completed yet, and therefore there was no schema.
I initially asked to see your database model here (October 2016), here (November 2016), here (December 2016), etc. You ignored my requests for a few months, then finally claimed you still didn't have a database schema. Curiously, it didn't stop you from trying to import data from old WoS.

Therefore I offered instead that "I can easily export ZXDB content into whatever format you want for new WoS" (June 2017). You claimed it still couldn't be done, and I had to wait. In the meantime, you continued to try importing data from old WoS.

Afterwards I wrote a script that converted ZXDB to the same old WoS format (July 2017). Therefore whatever method you were using to import from old WoS, would also work for converted ZXDB. However you pretended it never happened, and you are continuing to use the same excuse that you don't have a database schema.

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 amWhat you have now is exactly where Martijn was - one person performing updates, and to update the website you need to run the SQL statements. That's fine. But Einar always stated that once WoS is finished he has no intention of keeping ZXDB going. Has that changed?
Not exactly.

It was never my intention to maintain a database. I simply created ZXDB to help other people build a new WoS, at the time you decided to quit. I assumed whoever took over new WoS, would also want to adopt and maintain ZXDB. After all, nobody in their right mind would want to throw away over a year of work (cleaning WoS archive, fixing inconsistencies, adding information, etc), then waste a long time redoing exactly the same effort from scratch, right?

My opinion hasn't changed. I still prefer to spend my time creating games, instead of maintaining ZXDB.

Fortunately so many people have been helping with ZXDB content lately, that I don't need to dedicate much time to ZXDB myself anymore. As a matter of fact, I'm working on a new game right now!

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 amWho is taking over? And again you have one person maintaining the data - and in this case several sites.
Wrong.

Nowadays we have different people producing game screenshots (Peter, Pavero, ...), providing game information (R-Tape, hikoki, ...), integrating with other sites (Thomas, Daren, ...), registering everything into a collaborative spreadsheet (mostly R-Tape) and reviewing it (myself). Nowadays almost all SQL statements in ZXDB are generated automatically from the spreadsheet. It may not be a pretty solution, but it's better to improve everything gradually instead of putting an entire site on hold for years while working on a fancy solution.

In latest ZXDB releases, my involvement has been limited to validate information, make adjusts in a few cases not covered by the spreadsheet yet, then pack and upload everything. Although I don't spend much time with ZXDB anymore, it has never been more complete and up-to-date!

Moreover, we are currently working on submission forms and further automation of the entire process. Soon ZXDB won't even need me anymore :)

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 amWhat happens if archive.org receive copyright complaints? Will they argue their case, or disable the WoS files? Files which they are happy to advertise as WoS backup without actually having permission to host them.
Should I remind you that WoS also hosts thousands of files without actually having permission to host them?

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 amAre they going to spend hours on the phone speaking to copyright holders, or visiting them personally, as I have done? I doubt it.
Since you took over, the number of distribution permissions for WoS has been diminishing (for instance System 3 games).

Perhaps it's a good thing that other sites are not behaving like you!
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Re: World of Spectrum....

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Einar Saukas wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:01 am It may not be a pretty solution, but it's better to improve everything gradually instead of putting an entire site on hold for years while working on a fancy solution.
This!
Website: Tardis Remakes / Mostly remakes of Arcade and ZX Spectrum games.
My games for the Spectrum: Dingo, The Speccies, The Speccies 2, Vallation & Sqij.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Ralf »

Einar, I remember everything that you talk about. Lee was very contrary in his actions, once saying that he'll use ZXDB and then denying it.

And meanwhile he was building his own solution, you can see the results here:
http://live.worldofspectrum.org/

At these moment you can browse 2 tables - publishers and magazines. For a long time there were only publishers. But I suppose if he were to use ZXDB he would have to scrap or rework this "big" stuff and he didn't want to as he loved it with strong father's love ;)

I believe it was also a problem of having full control of everything. When you work in a team, other people make their decisions and solutions too and sometimes you have to adjust to them, not only expect everyone to adjust to you all the time.

Anyway I see good points of everything too. Did you people notice that in last two months Lee made more posts on WOS about site development then he did in 2 years previously? That something is actually happening since a long time of hiatus? I suppose he has an ambition to do it his way and now is actually doing something, especially as he quitted this unlucky Vega+ project which drained a lot of his energy.

I fully understand you Einer that you don't want to compete with WOS but help and be part of WOS instead. But sometimes you have to accept the reality. Better to have 2 quality sites than none. And personally I'll be trying to help ZXB and Spectrum Computing as long as... well, I care for Spectrum ;)
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by KenD »

Einar, I commend your patience in dealing with Lee, but I fear you're wasting your time. Everything you have done has been technically exemplary, proposed politely and communicated respectfully. Instead, you get rudeness, contradictions and misdirection; selectively responding to choice allegations and conveniently ignoring the more pertinent questions. He's the real-life equivalent of Viz's Aldridge Prior.

Trying to get him to back to reality with facts is a bit like kicking a dead whale up a beach: slow, messy, and ultimately pointless.
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Einar Saukas
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Einar Saukas »

Ralf wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:17 am Einar, I remember everything that you talk about. Lee was very contrary in his actions, once saying that he'll use ZXDB and then denying it.
He did it more than once.

I wish he admitted from the beginning that he intended to discard any contribution he didn't create himself. It would have been equally frustrating for all involved, but at least it would have saved us countless hours of discussions.

On the other hand, perhaps we should be thankful to him instead. If he had revealed earlier that he didn't want ZXDB, there would be no reason to continue working on it at the time. Instead, he kept making new promises about it for about a year, thus giving us reason to keep improving it. By the time he finally revealed ZXDB wouldn't be used (not even the same IDs), ZXDB was already integrated with almost everybody else's sites thus abandoning it wasn't an option anymore.

Ralf wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:17 am And meanwhile he was building his own solution, you can see the results here:
http://live.worldofspectrum.org/

At these moment you can browse 2 tables - publishers and magazines. For a long time there were only publishers. But I suppose if he were to use ZXDB he would have to scrap or rework this "big" stuff and he didn't want to as he loved it with strong father's love ;)
Not really.

I offered several times to convert data from ZXDB into whatever new WoS system he had.

I also provided a script that converted ZXDB content into old WoS format, so he could import all information himself using exactly the same method he was planning to import from old WoS.

Either of these options would allow him to benefit from the original old WoS archive content, plus thousands of bugfixes and updates, without scrapping or modifying any of his work.

Ralf wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:17 amI believe it was also a problem of having full control of everything. When you work in a team, other people make their decisions and solutions too and sometimes you have to adjust to them, not only expect everyone to adjust to you all the time.
Not really.

The initial plan was, whoever took over development of new WoS (after Lee quit) would also take over ZXDB.

When Lee refused to adopt ZXDB at WoS, I proposed exporting all content from ZXDB and importing it into new WoS system.

None of these options would give me any control over new WoS decisions. I would be simply giving away stuff.

Ralf wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:17 amAnyway I see good points of everything too. Did you people notice that in last two months Lee made more posts on WOS about site development then he did in 2 years previously? That something is actually happening since a long time of hiatus? I suppose he has an ambition to do it his way and now is actually doing something, especially as he quitted this unlucky Vega+ project which drained a lot of his energy.
Agreed. I'm also glad to see WoS finally moving ahead. I'm just not sure it's moving in the right direction...

Ralf wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:17 amI fully understand you Einer that you don't want to compete with WOS but help and be part of WOS instead. But sometimes you have to accept the reality.
Done. I was finally 100% convinced there was no chance to make things work, when he stopped posting excuses and started posting "misremembered events" that never happened. More precisely this post. That's the day I finally subscribed and moved to this forum.

Since them, I'm keeping my comments about WoS to a minimum (there's no point wasting time on it anymore), except in cases where he tries to blame me on anything.

Ralf wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:17 amBetter to have 2 quality sites than none. And personally I'll be trying to help ZXB and Spectrum Computing as long as... well, I care for Spectrum ;)
Thank you! Also thanks to anybody else who still cares :)
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by R-Tape »

I'm just happy to have a site with updates, that was pretty much all I wanted. Seeing them again after so long has given me a boost. I've had the most productive afternoon's coding I can remember, glad you're managing to find some time for games again Einar.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

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Einar Saukas wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:14 pm By the time he finally revealed ZXDB wouldn't be used (not even the same IDs),
On the topic of IDs, is there any appetite to add a WoS ID field to the entries table in ZXDB? Initially it would be identical to the existing "ZXDB ID" field, but when Fogarty (or his team) then branches off and uses a different ID, we'll still have a field to record the WoS-specific mapping. (Assuming such a field isn't already there, it's been a few months since I last had a good look at the ZXDB schema)
Einar Saukas wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:14 pm ZXDB was already integrated with almost everybody else's sites thus abandoning it wasn't an option anymore.
Thank you for confirming there is life to ZXDB after that point. That opens up the gates for contributions. I've been reluctant to volunteer to help while Fogarty remains a "gate-keeper" for ZXDB, and that's why I offered help when it became clear that ZXDB was no longer welcome on WoS.

That you are free to work on developing new games is great news. I'm relieved ZXDB isn't consuming lots of time. But, please shout if you need help, you are not alone, and there's a nice community building here, built on-top of your work. It's a valuable chunk of infrastructure.
Einar Saukas wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:14 pm Thank you! Also thanks to anybody else who still cares :)

Do you have a roadmap of features, or new types of information to add to ZXDB? I'm curious :-)
I'm hoping that ZXDB stuff will earn it's own group in this forum so we can propose additions and features, and get more people involved.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Rorthron »

Mike Davies wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:24 pm I'm hoping that ZXDB stuff will earn it's own group in this forum so we can propose additions and features, and get more people involved.
Do you mean like this one?

viewforum.php?f=32
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Mike Davies »

Rorthron wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:27 pm
Mike Davies wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:24 pm I'm hoping that ZXDB stuff will earn it's own group in this forum so we can propose additions and features, and get more people involved.
Do you mean like this one?

viewforum.php?f=32
Ooops :-) I missed that.
Perfect!
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Einar Saukas
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Einar Saukas »

R-Tape wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:25 pmglad you're managing to find some time for games again Einar.
Thanks to you, for taking most of the burden from me on cataloguing information about recent releases. Now I can finally afford to dedicate some time to other activities too, besides ZXDB updates! :)
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Einar Saukas »

KenD wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:25 pmEinar, I commend your patience in dealing with Lee, but I fear you're wasting your time. Everything you have done has been technically exemplary, proposed politely and communicated respectfully. Instead, you get rudeness, contradictions and misdirection; selectively responding to choice allegations and conveniently ignoring the more pertinent questions. He's the real-life equivalent of Viz's Aldridge Prior.

Trying to get him to back to reality with facts is a bit like kicking a dead whale up a beach: slow, messy, and ultimately pointless.
Thanks for the support! :)
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Einar Saukas
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Einar Saukas »

Mike Davies wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:24 pmOn the topic of IDs, is there any appetite to add a WoS ID field to the entries table in ZXDB? Initially it would be identical to the existing "ZXDB ID" field, but when Fogarty (or his team) then branches off and uses a different ID, we'll still have a field to record the WoS-specific mapping.
Actually it's more complicated: Lee also plans to break compatibility between old WoS and new WoS too. According to him, new WoS will have different IDs from old WoS. He mentioned it here (July 2017):

"Yes the old infoseek ID's will work, but no, we aren't keeping the same numbering system. In reality, there will be a lookup table between old id's and new ones. All software items will be renumbered to follow an auto-increment and new items follow on from there. The lookup is for backwards compatibility with old links."

Anyway your answer is yes. In the future, we plan to map IDs from both ZXDB and old WoS, into IDs from new WoS. Unless Lee changes his mind again about this...

Mike Davies wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:24 pmThank you for confirming there is life to ZXDB after that point. That opens up the gates for contributions. I've been reluctant to volunteer to help while Fogarty remains a "gate-keeper" for ZXDB, and that's why I offered help when it became clear that ZXDB was no longer welcome on WoS.

That you are free to work on developing new games is great news. I'm relieved ZXDB isn't consuming lots of time. But, please shout if you need help, you are not alone, and there's a nice community building here, built on-top of your work. It's a valuable chunk of infrastructure.
Thank you very much!!! :)

Mike Davies wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:24 pmDo you have a roadmap of features, or new types of information to add to ZXDB? I'm curious :-)
Good point! Just please give me some time to take care of more urgent tasks first, and I will publish current ZXDB roadmap ASAP.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

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Image


Sigh....
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by 5MinuteRetro »

Really, does it much matter at this stage? The WoS stewardship is a laughing stock, and the brand is likely now irretrievably tarnished. I'd say ignore it and let it whither. SC is my new trusted source for all things Spectrum.
Retro stuff, real quick
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Re: World of Spectrum....

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Yes, ignoring is the best option.

The true world of Spectrum is where is the true spirit.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

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Agree with Ralf, best thing is just to ignore it. If the guy wants to remove core functionality from his forum that is his choice.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

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5MinuteRetro wrote: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:10 pm I'd say ignore it and let it whither. SC is my new trusted source for all things Spectrum.
If WOS should fade away, I'd be immensely sad. I have been a member of the forum for 20 years by now and couldn't ever imagine it not being any more. Certainly I am more active here nowadays (except for some later inactivity due to more important "real life" matters) but WOS has been a part of my life for so much time, despite the problems since Martijn left and the discussions over food and obscure UK TV programs taking a large share of the total, that I could simply not accept such a fate as if it were nothing.

I will continue posting my own news there, and answering posts when I feel like it, as I did in the past. The demise of WOS would not be a defeat for Lee Fogarty - it would be a defeat for all of us.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

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Alessandro wrote: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:22 am ...

I will continue posting my own news there, and answering posts when I feel like it, as I did in the past.
...
I would also like to be able to do that, and fix all the links on my previous threads, that are no longer valid ...

However, after being banned without any relation to the website, it's hard to contribute ...
I hope that will not happen to many more, because if it does, it will be impossible to keep the place going ...
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Alessandro »

I don't want to resuscitate old troubles, even less about circumstances beyond my personal knowledge, but since I am still there, I will continue being active on it rather much as before. Not as intensely, as several people I interacted with the most chose to migrate here for good, but again, I don't like the idea of completely ignoring the website at the heart of almost all of my retrocomputing and retrogaming 20-year-old activity, despite the events after Martijn's leave.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by PeterJ »

[mention]Alessandro[/mention] its would indeed be very sad if WoS ever bit the dust. I think we all want it to survive and return to it's former glory.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Ralf »

Yes, I would love to see it in former glory too.

It's been over 15 years since I was reading WOS. Actually my first experiences with WOS were at internet cafes as I didn't still have internet connection at home then ;)

But Alessandro is right saying that it is spoilt much more beyond obsolete, broken technology and lack of updates. It's the people not been able to get excited and find enthusiasm about Spectrum anymore, doing smalltalk about food, drinks and celebrities deaths most of time.

You can fix the technology but can you fix the people? :?:
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Re: World of Spectrum....

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Ralf wrote: Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:36 pm You can fix the technology but can you fix the people? :?:
True words.

I figure most people feel the same way - we would all love to see WOS like when it was in its prime. But its been sick for a long time. And the problems that lead to this whole mess would still have been their.

Still on the plus side, look at all the progress you guys have made here. Sure there were a few problems but its like every week there is new software, or some preservation progress or the new database is coming on leaps and bounds. The thing that really convinced me things were different now is the projects are using standard tech, and its open source.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

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I think very few of us want to see WoS fail, and almost all would like to see it restored to its former glory. That just seems less and less likely as time proceeds.

Also, I wouldn't just say "the people" are the problem. There are still good people posting there - it's a small group of people that have made it a place I no longer choose to visit.

All we can do is make SC the best place for the Spectrum that we can. If we then end up with two great Spectrum sites, great; if we end up with one, it's a shame, but the community still has somewhere.
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