World of Spectrum....

Y'know, other stuff, Sinclair related.
HexTank
Drutt
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by HexTank »

Yeah, I understand that, there isn't any social media that has escaped it, but, as mentioned on WoS, this place isn't supposed to be a replacement yet its biggest thread doesn't give that impression, does it?
User avatar
PeterJ
Site Admin
Posts: 6853
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by PeterJ »

Rorthron wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:43 am
ramsrc wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:07 am I think everyone needs to be very careful here. Much mud slinging has taken place over an extended period of time - and in my humble opinion it is now time to stop.

This is not aimed at anyone specifically, but to everyone - Please, please, please think before you type - and use your common sense!
Yes, there are obviously a lot of (understandable) frustrations with what's been happening at WoS. It would be great if we can avoid them boiling over here.

I'm really grateful Peter et al have set up this place and have given us an alternative place to discuss Spectrum matters. I think it would be great if we make their lives easier and police ourselves as much as possible.
Thank you. I couldn't agree more. Self moderation is the key to the success and continuation of this forum.
User avatar
Sokurah
Manic Miner
Posts: 283
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:38 am
Contact:

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Sokurah »

HexTank wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:07 am Why is this thread a thing? It's like you get a new (girl|boy)friend and can't stop talking about your ex.
I have to agree. It's been discussed to death on WoS already. I wish I'd never have to read about it again.
Website: Tardis Remakes / Mostly remakes of Arcade and ZX Spectrum games.
My games for the Spectrum: Dingo, The Speccies, The Speccies 2, Vallation & Sqij.
Twitter: Sokurah
User avatar
balford
Drutt
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:01 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by balford »

A phrase I use a lot is 'we are where we are'. Everyone has their own viewpoint on how we got here, the important bit is how we continue.
Fixing ZX Spectrums in the 21st Century
https://github.com/brendanalford/zx-diagnostics
User avatar
1024MAK
Bugaboo
Posts: 3104
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Sunny Somerset in the U.K. in Europe

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by 1024MAK »

@jmk - there are never just two sides. It's always much more complex. As is everything where human beliefs and emotions are involved.

And as I said earlier, there are precious few facts. Just lots of allegations and lots of misinformation. Like your statement that fewer and fewer people are allowed to post. Who has been banned recently? The only subject that is banned on WoS is that of the Vega+.

It's sad that there is so much bitterness in the Spectrum community where the average age is that of middle age people.

Anyway, it appears that there is currently no way for clarity to shine through, let alone for people to put aside their bitterness.

I do wish Spectrum Computing good luck and success. I also wish WoS good luck and success. And I will continue to support both.

Mark
:!: Standby alert :!:
“There are four lights!”
Step up to red alert. Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb :dance
Looking forward to summer later in the year.
richl
Dizzy
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:17 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by richl »

I was watching this crime documentary series the other day and it taught me a valuable lesson about how different people perceive situations. It really made me think hard about my ability to process information and discern fact from fiction. Basically, the kids and their talking dog proved that it was the old lighthouse keeper who'd been behind the thefts all along. Really threw me!

Anyway, where were we? Oh, yeah. To paraphrase what others have already said, arguing amongst ourselves about whether Lee did or didn't kill WoS and similar topics is probably not very productive at the moment. I'm very grateful to Peter for setting this forum up and apologise for my part in fanning the flames. I think most people have made their stance fairly clear so I'm going to take my own advice from earlier and just try and post positive things on this forum instead. With that in mind, I'm saying nothing more on this thread. TTFN :)
User avatar
1024MAK
Bugaboo
Posts: 3104
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Sunny Somerset in the U.K. in Europe

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by 1024MAK »

Hikaru wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:22 am @ 1024MAK, interesting. I can't seem to I remember a single time you spoke up against the many injustices happening over at WoS, not when people were banned for no reason nor explanation, not when they were pointed the door at a slightest hint of disagreement, the silent treatment and censorship, the broken features all over the place, not to mention the ridiculous 'development cycle', and so on. Bit of sweeping stuff under the carpet, bit of cracking dank 80's jokes on top of it, the usual thing. But hey, when people draw their conclusions (since, you know, humans are capable of independent thought) and/or react to any of it - indeed to the point that we have another forum now - then that is apparently a problem immediately worth many a wall of text.
Now you're just grasping for straws, stopping short of the 'our senses are imperfect, therefore white might actually be black' argument. Blind and misinformed, at this point, really? Not even shonen manga material excuse me.

Frankly, you need to follow your own advice and stop with the 'nasty unhelpful posts' here, seeing as it is all essentially a very long-winded way of 1) reiterating the idea that everyone is a tr@ll (outright destructive if you ask me), with 2) an added accusation that outside re-action is somehow the main and defining factor to the current state of WoS, or indeed should even be regarded a factor in the first place.

And yes, permutations and derivatives of 'I've paid enough monnies I should by now be entitled to ruin a major website among other things' are bad, bad arguments, that should probably not be used wherever human values are in effect.

I know I'm not exactly being constructive here, but neither is this entire discussion. Truth has a way of revealing itself over the course of 3+ years.
Err, you appear to have missed the posts on WoS where I objected to some of Lee's actions or intentions.

In actual fact, I dislike the word troll. In fact, I dislike any negative label that people use against others. I most certainly do not consider you to be a troll. And I never intend to post 'nasty unhelpful posts', and I don't believe I have done so.

However, it is clear that we disagree on various things. I try to look at situations from as independent viewpoint as I can. I have my own views. But I try to challenge the discussion/argument, not the person. As every person has a right to their own point of view. However, I do and will point out when wrong or misleading things are said.

Clearly WoS is not where we would like it to be. But all this bitterness is not going to help WoS or the Spectrum community in general.

Mark
:!: Standby alert :!:
“There are four lights!”
Step up to red alert. Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb :dance
Looking forward to summer later in the year.
User avatar
Pegaz
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1209
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:44 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Pegaz »

1024MAK wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:48 amAnd as I said earlier, there are precious few facts. Just lots of allegations and lots of misinformation. Like your statement that fewer and fewer people are allowed to post. Who has been banned recently? The only subject that is banned on WoS is that of the Vega+.
The lack of transparency is the cause of many misunderstandings, but who's to blame for it?
btw, I already told you that RMartins was recently banned (without proper explanation) and I almost cant believe you didnt notice it.
Maybe it should have been banned, but we dont know that, and we probably will not find out.
And why Vega+ should it be banned anyway?
5000 fans have invested their money in this project and I dont see why it's inappropriate to talk about it on the Spectrum related website.
Do you have any logical explanation, from independent point of view?
Hikaru
Microbot
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:42 pm
Location: Russia
Contact:

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Hikaru »

1024MAK wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:11 amIn actual fact, I dislike the word troll. In fact, I dislike any negative label that people use against others. I most certainly do not consider you to be a troll. And I never intend to post 'nasty unhelpful posts', and I don't believe I have done so.

However, it is clear that we disagree on various things. I try to look at situations from as independent viewpoint as I can. I have my own views. But I try to challenge the discussion/argument, not the person. As every person has a right to their own point of view. However, I do and will point out when wrong or misleading things are said.
Well, at the very least it is certainly not fair to categorize everyone who disagrees with the way WoS is managed as being collectively blind and misleaded, or somesuch. And if for whatever reason you nevertheless have to, I believe it would help the communication to denote the actual who's and why's if you have something particular in mind.

I have likewise nothing personal vs you despite these disagreements, I just don't think it's the kind of discussion that needs to be 'challenged', or re-fuelled for that matter. Everything has mostly been said over the years, including this exact phrase. :)
Inactive account
User avatar
jmk
Drutt
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:23 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by jmk »

1024MAK wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:48 am And as I said earlier, there are precious few facts. Just lots of allegations and lots of misinformation. Like your statement that fewer and fewer people are allowed to post. Who has been banned recently? The only subject that is banned on WoS is that of the Vega+.

It's sad that there is so much bitterness in the Spectrum community where the average age is that of middle age people.
@1024MAK - it is not just as simple as people being banned (they have been) and subjects being banned (they have been). I have been in de facto exile and others walk on eggshells in the WoS forums, precisely to avoid the kind of conflict that would precipitate the end of WoS.

A group of people have got together to (quietly) build a lifeboat.

These are not actions driven by anger or bitterness, but from a fundamental desire to see the essence of the Spectrum community survive. Again, the overwhelming emotion is sadness as I watch something I have loved, for decades, die slowly.
Just like before, it's yesterday once more.
User avatar
1024MAK
Bugaboo
Posts: 3104
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Sunny Somerset in the U.K. in Europe

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by 1024MAK »

Pegaz wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:25 am btw, I already told you that RMartins was recently banned (without proper explanation) and I almost cant believe you didnt notice it.
Maybe it should have been banned, but we dont know that, and we probably will not find out.
And why Vega+ should it be banned anyway?
5000 fans have invested their money in this project and I dont see why it's inappropriate to talk about it on the Spectrum related website.
Do you have any logical explanation, from independent point of view?
I did not realise that RMartins was recently banned. Sorry if you mentioned it in an earlier post, I must have missed that bit.

I can understand why Vega+ is banned. I don't agree with discussion being banned. However, if I was the owner/operator, admin or moderator of a Spectrum forum, a thread discussing the Vega+ would be subject to close moderation, simply because threads about it often end up going bad. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with people who paid money coming on and talking about how unhappy they are with the situation. But it's all the other mud slinging that goes on that I don't like.

Yes, and I'm one of the people who now has less money in my pocket, but no Vega+ to show for it. It is a deeply disappointing state of affairs. And the occasional dangled "updates" are rather depressing (at least, for me).

Mark
:!: Standby alert :!:
“There are four lights!”
Step up to red alert. Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb :dance
Looking forward to summer later in the year.
Nomad
Manic Miner
Posts: 600
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:38 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Nomad »

WOS was one of the first websites I found on the internet back in the 90s, come to think of it its the only one from the dialup days that I think is still in existence. Like most of you guys and girls the Spectrum was a huge part of my childhood, so finding such a active community in the early days that was bringing together so much information on the machine that fascinated me was a big plus. I can remember all my friends at college being green with envy when i walked in with a set of the WOS CD-Roms one day. I think that single event destroyed the grades of most of the computer science class that year. But it was worth it. To have thousands of games, utilities all in one place. When I remember how many years I had lusted after just a few titles and now there were all there waiting to be used. It was great.

But the biggest asset was the forums, being able to research a topic and get the insight and experience of guys who in some cases are no longer alive or active in the community. Being able to find out answers to questions that were often times either never covered or poorly explained in the magazines or the books. It was a godsend. I think that is one of the biggest dangers is loosing all of that data. Not saying there are not competent coders still around but its much easier to search a forum for answers than bothering the same guys again and again with questions that have been answered elsewhere.

After that, the books and magazines were a way i wasted hours looking through. To be able to read books and magazines I didn't have the pocket money for as a kid was great. But with archive.org having a fairly comprehensive collection now its not such a bit worry as say the forum data from WOS.

I just hope the preservation scans, all the maps and other content that so many people devoted so much time to can be preserved and put to good use in some way in the future.

I guess even though I was not an active member of the site, there are many fun memories associated with stuff that I was able to do because it existed. Still I am optimistic about the future of spectrum coding, I see lots of interesting projects and if youtube is anything to go by there still seems to be a lot of interest in retro computing.

I mean things could be worse - look at what happened to the BBC Micro archive websites... (shudders).
User avatar
Einar Saukas
Bugaboo
Posts: 3070
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Einar Saukas »

We all share the same concerns about WoS decline and all the valuable information it contains. That's exactly what we are all working to prevent!

Right now, there's a copy of all files from the original WoS archive preserved at Archive.org. The entire content of Martijn's Infoseek database is stored inside ZXDB, with corrections and improvements. Both SpectrumComputing and ZXInfo provide basically the same information you can find at the original WoS archive, except SpectrumComputing currently adopts a more strict policy to only distribute permitted files. Even so, it recently got green light to redistribute all games from Hewson, Zenobi and a few others, more will certainly follow. And SpectrumComputing already achieved the same "spirit" of the old WoS forum from its best days.

The only part we still risk loosing, if WoS goes down, is all the forum history. Although WoS forum searches are still broken, thus in practice most of its content is already inaccessible anyway... Also there's a good chance Martijn kept a backup when he left, so if the forum disappears, we could simply contact him and ask for his approval to restore a read-only copy somewhere.
fogartylee
Drutt
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:01 am

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by fogartylee »

Correction. The entire WoS archive isn't available anywhere else. It's currently around 250gb, with 1tb still to process - around 1/4 of that will be used.

I'd be grateful if you'd stop fueling rumours that WoS is going anywhere thank you.

As for the forums - the search works as well as it can with 1m comments and the size of the database makes it very difficult to host anywhere but a dedicated service. It uses Sphinx as the search service which is about as good as it gets. Without Sphinx it takes 30-60 seconds to do a full search of the forums - with it, it takes less than a second.

You'd also need to check the legality of taking someone elses forum to host wherever you feel like it. A lot of people have posted on WoS over the years not expecting comments to be hosted elsewhere.
User avatar
Einar Saukas
Bugaboo
Posts: 3070
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Einar Saukas »

Hi Lee! I wasn't sure if you were reading this forum! :)

fogartylee wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:11 pmCorrection. The entire WoS archive isn't available anywhere else. It's currently around 250gb
... that's mirrored at Archive.org.

fogartylee wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:11 pmwith 1tb still to process - around 1/4 of that will be used.
Those 1Tb of unprocessed files, that were not added to WoS archive yet, are not part of the WoS archive mirror. Obviously.

fogartylee wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:11 pmI'd be grateful if you'd stop fueling rumours that WoS is going anywhere thank you.
I'm not fueling any rumors. I never said WoS will go somewhere, instead I explicitly wrote "if WoS goes down" and "if the forum disappears". Therefore I was discussing a possibility. This possibility would happen, for instance, in case you decided to leave WoS without a plan to replace you. And this has already happened once.

fogartylee wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:11 pmAs for the forums - the search works as well as it can with 1m comments and the size of the database makes it very difficult to host anywhere but a dedicated service. It uses Sphinx as the search service which is about as good as it gets. Without Sphinx it takes 30-60 seconds to do a full search of the forums - with it, it takes less than a second.
I wasn't debating the reasons why WoS forum search is broken. I just mentioned that it is. I didn't even mention that Martijn's WoS forum (before it was migrated) already had a similar large volume and searches worked just fine.

fogartylee wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:11 pmYou'd also need to check the legality of taking someone elses forum to host wherever you feel like it. A lot of people have posted on WoS over the years not expecting comments to be hosted elsewhere.
Yet another reason to contact Martijn about it and ask for his approval, as I suggested. And that's only as last resort, "if the forum disappears" as I wrote!
Last edited by Einar Saukas on Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
fogartylee
Drutt
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:01 am

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by fogartylee »

Not sure how often to keep repeating. Archive.org DOES NOT HAVE THE FULL ARCHIVE. Not even close to full. The archive is a lot more than was publicly available - we are addressing that along with the new data.
User avatar
Einar Saukas
Bugaboo
Posts: 3070
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Einar Saukas »

fogartylee wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:09 pmNot sure how often to keep repeating. Archive.org DOES NOT HAVE THE FULL ARCHIVE. Not even close to full. The archive is a lot more than was publicly available - we are addressing that along with the new data.
Semantics. You consider 1Tb of unprocessed files as "hidden part of WoS archive". I consider it as "not added to WoS archive yet". It's the same thing, under different names.
fogartylee
Drutt
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:01 am

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by fogartylee »

I wasn't talking about the extra 1tb. I was talking about the existing archive.
User avatar
Einar Saukas
Bugaboo
Posts: 3070
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Einar Saukas »

fogartylee wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:43 pmI wasn't talking about the extra 1tb. I was talking about the existing archive.
Interesting. Do you have any examples?
fogartylee
Drutt
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:01 am

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by fogartylee »

There's videos, loads of additional files for publishers, people, etc., the denied titles, books, denied magazines, hi-res inlays & numerous other documents.
grahamken
Drutt
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:55 am

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by grahamken »

Hmmm...that would be an ecumenical matter!
Ralf
Rick Dangerous
Posts: 2279
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:59 am
Location: Poland

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Ralf »

Hello Lee. I suppose I should say "welcome to the forums".

As for "hidden" WOS stuff I would say that if it can't be seen at the website, it's not part of the website. It's just unsorted stuff on your hard drive. But yes, we are discussing language here.

The problem is that all this stuff isn't secure in your hands. At any moment you can get angry, annoyed, tired or whatever and dissapear forever from the community together with all these assets. We know each other enough that I can consider it probable. So don't be surprised that people are making backups, as complete as currently possible.
fogartylee
Drutt
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:01 am

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by fogartylee »

There's also the slight issue that at least 1 publisher will take legal action should they see their books in the archive. Which is why the new archive won't have them... Permissions change.
ADJB
Drutt
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:27 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by ADJB »

That's OK then, that will be a similar but incomplete copy of what I have.

A few people who had full access were advised to take copies and did so. That will include the directory's you have never seen or had access to on Martijns server like, for example, my personal set of folders which held work in progress and data awaiting processing.

If you do have these when can we expect the publication of the OCRed version of the weekly mags? A text version would be much easier to search.
fogartylee
Drutt
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:01 am

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by fogartylee »

Yes we do. The new site will let people choose between text versions and images (where text has been done), and additionally the text versions are to be a part of infoseek. We aren't loading new data until we switch over in the new year as we are replacing the mags with hi-res too.
Post Reply