World of Spectrum....

[Mike Davies]

It took Einar a month to convert Martjin's "custom format" to a relational database import. And it took a few weeks for Spectrum Computing to emerge from that. A year after Einar started, and ZXDB is being actively updated, new features and content being brought it. It's ticking along quite smoothly.

The delays of the replacement WoS aren't caused by criticism, they are caused by the technical decision to build a CMS from scratch. It's a classic boil the ocean mistake. That's then compounded by alienating developers who have the skills and expertise to contribute. What's left is one guy, trying to build an ivory tower solution, plodding along, discouraged every step of the way because there's no visible progress. While all the people who can help on the content side waiting for this CMS to materialise so they can finally start adding in the existing content, that's now 2-3 years out of date.

Einar has shown the more practical and agile path, export the data into a database. Allow people to build a websites on top of that database. Hey presto, an actively maintained catalogue that can be perused by anyone, who can then channel corrections and updates that get added to the database. If a CMS is indeed required, it can be built on the other side of the database, as a backend. That's a great example of technical architecture, deferring the decision about what CMS to use, and then finding out you have a minimal viable product that's actually giving value to users without even dealing with the CMS question.

Fogarty chose the big-bang approach, Einar took the iterative path.

[ToonTeddy]

I think a lot of it comes from people blaming Lee for a lot of the Vega+ problems, he's an easy target as he's there on the FB Wos page and on the WOS forums. The other two people who are actually involved (although very slowly) in the Vega+ are harder to reach. And as we all know, it's easy to be a 'keyboard warrior' and hide behind a made up name.

I love George's video's on youtube they're entertaining but I would like to see both him and Lee sit down and have an honest and brutal chat about what's been going on.

I'm no one just a speccy fan who's sad about all this nonsense and I would be devastated if any archive of WOS of any other speccy related documents vanished from the internet.

[1024MAK]

@Mike Davies - I'm not here to defend Lee. That he can do himself. Einar has indeed done a lot of good work. As has Peter.
I could build a car in a month, but it would not be the same as one designed over many years by a professional vehicle manufacturer and build in a purpose designed factory. Until Lee has got the new WoS to say 90% of what he set out to do, it's rather too early to properly judge the situation. Also please note I am not having a dig at anyone, and I am most certainly not comparing web sites with cars. I'm just saying that there are different routes.

The original WoS site appears to have been build using a number of off-the-shelf software packages that were then glued together with custom code. That sounds like it was a right pain to maintain. Can you blame anyone for trying to avoid such a system?

Anyway, I think most users will have had enough of this subject. We need to look forward to the future. I for one think that having more than one site for a popular computer like the Spectrum is a good thing.

Mark

[Hikaru]

Well, personally I'm just glad the people at SC have put the final missing piece in. It's probably OK to covertly hope 'dat old WoS spirit' will live on in the end.

[Mike Davies]

The original WoS site appears to have been build using a number of off-the-shelf software packages that were then glued together with custom code. That sounds like it was a right pain to maintain. Can you blame anyone for trying to avoid such a system?

Both Fogarty and Einar started from the same position, Martjin's data. Except Fogarty has had a 3 year head start.

There's nothing unprofessional about agile development and iterative releases, this is how the Web development world works.

[1024MAK]

The original WoS site appears to have been build using a number of off-the-shelf software packages that were then glued together with custom code. That sounds like it was a right pain to maintain. Can you blame anyone for trying to avoid such a system?

Both Fogarty and Einar started from the same position, Martjin's data. Except Fogarty has had a 3 year head start.

There's nothing unprofessional about agile development and iterative releases, this is how the Web development world works.

Einar has not built a web site. And even I could grab the data from WoS and populate a database. That's not the issue. It was never the issue.
What Lee, Einar and Peter are doing are all different things.

Both Einar and Peter have said that what they are doing is to provide something that is an alternative to WoS, not to replace it. Therefore it is not the SAME.

@Mike Davies - If you are so confident, write a Spectrum game for me in three days that is a proper playable game. Should be simple for you. The Spectrum is a simple computer simple compared to a modern server running a full featured web site.

Mark

[1024MAK]

For anyone who is not blinded by the large amounts of misinformation, rumours, wild speculation and in some cases, down right lies, I wish to point out that there are as usual precious few actual facts. On that basis, I refuse to follow a pack of blind sheep.

People, please open your eyes. Keep an open mind. Question what people say. Not just comments from people who you don't think you can trust, but also those who may be stirring up trouble. It is in no true Spectrum enthusiasts interest for a war to break out.

Would the Spectrum world really be a better place if hate and anger caused so much friction that a web site devoted to the Spectrum was forced to close, or to wither away and die?

I support both WoS and I also support the efforts of both Einar and Peter.

Mark

[Pegaz]

You're right Mark, but some things have happened and the least we can expect is an explanation.
Closing two good threads (ZXDB and SC), as well as the censorship of the spectrumcomputing website is shameful and can not be justified, in any way.
How do you expect us to react, if people are banning without valid reason and presented evidence (e.g. RMartens), forbid the discussion on the Vega+ console, constant restrictions, threats and prohibitions on the front page of the site.
All I wanted to ask, I did it right there on wos, but instead of answering, we only received a deafening silence and total ignorance.
Do you have an explanation for such behavior?
Perhaps we should all blindly and silently accept any such decision, without any questions or clarifications.
Sorry, but I cant.

[Mike Davies]

@Mike Davies - If you are so confident, write a Spectrum game for me in three days that is a proper playable game. Should be simple for you. The Spectrum is a simple computer simple compared to a modern server running a full featured web site.

This is bizarre, what's that supposed to prove? My expertise is in architecting and building web sites and web applications, not Spectrum games. The skills are not readily transferrable since there is a substantial difference in abstraction levels.

[1024MAK]

You're right Mark, but some things have happened and the least we can expect is an explanation.
Closing two good threads (ZXDB and SC), as well as the censorship of the spectrumcomputing website is shameful and can not be justified, in any way.
How do you expect us to react, if people are banning without valid reason and presented evidence (e.g. RMartens), forbid the discussion on the Vega+ console, constant restrictions, threats and prohibitions on the front page of the site.
All I wanted to ask, I did it right there on wos, but instead of answering, we only received a deafening silence and total ignorance.
Do you have an explanation for such behavior?
Perhaps we should all blindly and silently accept any such decision, without any questions or clarifications.
Sorry, but I cant.

Yes, someone is messing about. I don't know who locked the threads. One (Database model ZXDB) is currently not locked or closed. And I don't know if/what happened with the filters, but today I found that I could post "ZXDB" without problems. And I also don't know what was locked/closed earlier, or what "words" were unable to be posted.

Of course members should question when things do not seem right. Of course you should not blindly and silently accept any attempted censorship.

But at the same time, you should be careful that you don't get drawn to the wrong conclusions. Be careful not to blindly follow misinformation. Humans should be able to think for themselves and not act like "sheep".

It's only a short time since Lee restored the forums after a failure. And why would it be in Lee's interest to upset everyone? If most of the members currently on WoS forum leave, WoS forum will die a slow death. I don't think anyone wants that. Do you think Lee wants that?

At the same time, we already know that some people do want that. And no, I am not blaming them for what happened. But you never know who anyone is in a new forum like this one.

Something strange is going on. All I am saying, is open your eyes. Don't get hoodwinked.

Mark

[1024MAK]

@Mike Davies - If you are so confident, write a Spectrum game for me in three days that is a proper playable game. Should be simple for you. The Spectrum is a simple computer simple compared to a modern server running a full featured web site.

This is bizarre, what's that supposed to prove? My expertise is in architecting and building web sites and web applications, not Spectrum games. The skills are not readily transferrable since there is a substantial difference in abstraction levels.

Ahh, so there is the problem. You say that your "expertise is in architecting and building web sites and web applications". But that is something that I cannot judge you on. I just have your word. At the moment, there are plenty of words flying around, with very little substance, let alone actual facts. So word alone is not enough if you just post up comments knocking others. Especially if you yourself may not have all the relevant information. And your earlier comments lead me to think that its possible that you may not have all the relevant information. Hence my comments.

So if you don't write Spectrum games, do you play games on a Spectrum? Which is your favourite game? And what is your current high score in this Spectrum game?

Mark

[Pegaz]

I'm not a mind reader Mark and I dont know what anyone wants or what intentions are.
That's why many of us have been looking for an explanation of the past days, but we didnt get it.
Just a wall of silence.

[Hikaru]

Humans should be able to think for themselves and not act like "sheep".

Humans should possess something called 'common sense'.

[1024MAK]

I'm not a mind reader Mark and I dont know what anyone wants or what intentions are.
That's why many of us have been looking for an explanation of the past days, but we didnt get it.
Just a wall of silence.

All I know is that Lee said this:

Due to a failure within the WoS Admin team, it has been decided that all forum moderators are standing down to allow for new people to step in. I'd like to thank the team for their efforts over the last few years, and they will continue to contribute to WoS and the new site as before.

(link)

So it is possible that one of the WoS team was responsible for the thread locking/closure etc.

Lee tells me that he has reverted the changes, so the locked/closed threads are no longer locked/closed etc.

I don't know who was responsible. But I do know that whatever happens, if people don't like it, Lee will get the blame.

Mark

[Mike Davies]

Ahh, so there is the problem. You say that your "expertise is in architecting and building web sites and web applications". But that is something that I cannot judge you on. I just have your word.

Google is your friend. LinkedIn is also your friend.

At the moment, there are plenty of words flying around, with very little substance, let alone actual facts. So word alone is not enough if you just post up comments knocking others. Especially if you yourself may not have all the relevant information. And your earlier comments lead me to think that its possible that you may not have all the relevant information. Hence my comments.

You should probably follow your own advice. Present this relevant information that you think others don't have that's material. These implications and hand-waving appeals to the unknown are discourteous and not conducive to moving the conversation forward.

[1024MAK]

At the moment, there are plenty of words flying around, with very little substance, let alone actual facts. So word alone is not enough if you just post up comments knocking others. Especially if you yourself may not have all the relevant information. And your earlier comments lead me to think that its possible that you may not have all the relevant information. Hence my comments.

You should probably follow your own advice. Present this relevant information that you think others don't have that's material. These implications and hand-waving appeals to the unknown are discourteous and not conducive to moving the conversation forward.

All the information on WoS that I have referred to is already available on WoS or it's forums. Or was in the now discontinued Wikipedia page on WoS. Or is available on other public sites (like the internet archive).

Lee has already said that he helped Einar with the WoS data. So Einar did start ZXDB from scratch, but he did have help with the WoS data and it's format. He has also had help from other people I believe (although to be honest, I have not followed his every step, so I don't know any details).

When Lee took over WoS, WoS was already in trouble (lack of updates, forum software faults and server problems). As Martjin was not spending much time on it any-more. If you can find them, within WoS forums there are gaps in time due to the forums or the whole site going off-line. This happened multiple times (and no, I did not record the details). Then WoS crashed off-line completely. Lee did what he could and he got something back-up.

If you were tasked with recovering and rebuilding an entire large web site, that was using a mishmash of old obsolete software glued together with custom code, how would you do it?

And keep in mind that Lee wants members of WoS to help maintain the site. He does not want to do everything himself (see the developing magazine area). There are also threads on WoS forums about new scans for this magazine section. Many members have helped with this. He wants the same with the books and the software.

Whoever took on the WoS site was going to have a lot of work to do.

In hindsight, maybe some things could have been done differently. I don't know. I'm just a normal member/user. But please don't knock the guy for taking on such a project after he has put a lot of work into it. And of course, WoS is free. No one pays to use the site. And there are no adverts either.

Mark

[Ivanzx]

Has it been slower than anyone would have liked? Yes. But the fact is, WoS is still there. At least someone saved it, and is still working on it.

Meanwhile, how many other sites about 1980s and 1990s computers have disappeared without much trace?

Mark

I apreciate a lot your posts in WoS, so I will try to be also very positive

That is the biggest mistake when talking about WoS fall. Yes, Lee took over the page in that moment but we all know that if he had not, there were plenty of people willing to have done the same, including teams of people full of passion and knowledge. I mean, Lee "saved it", but I am quite sure many other people would have done the same, for free and putting unbelievable amounts of hours of work too, but never were given the opportunity

[richl]

Sorry, Mark, but the "Lee pays for the server" thing isn't really a good argument and it certainly isn't an excuse for some of the unforgiveable things he's done recently. People have offered to pay for hosting but Lee wasn't interested. Besides which, it's hosted on the same server that he's got his paying clients' sites on, right? And how do you actually know how much work he's put into the site? Everything has been kept top secret so that in terms of things that are actually verifiably true, all we can say for certain is that the main site is more broken than it used to be and that the new one is very much unfinished. I'd also dispute your assertion that he wants members of WoS to help him maintain the site. He's actively refused help on many occasions, as a matter of fact. He also doesn't like members of the community asking him questions either. With regard to the magazines section you mention, that's all the work of one seriously dedicated guy doing all the scanning because he wants to give to the community as a whole. Lee's got naff all to do with it.

Anyway, what were you saying about keeping an open mind?

[1024MAK]

Sorry, Mark, but the "Lee pays for the server" thing isn't really a good argument and it certainly isn't an excuse for some of the unforgiveable things he's done recently. People have offered to pay for hosting but Lee wasn't interested. Besides which, it's hosted on the same server that he's got his paying clients' sites on, right? And how do you actually know how much work he's put into the site? Everything has been kept top secret so that in terms of things that are actually verifiably true, all we can say for certain is that the main site is more broken than it used to be and that the new one is very much unfinished. I'd also dispute your assertion that he wants members of WoS to help him maintain the site. He's actively refused help on many occasions, as a matter of fact. He also doesn't like members of the community asking him questions either. With regard to the magazines section you mention, that's all the work of one seriously dedicated guy doing all the scanning because he wants to give to the community as a whole. Lee's got naff all to do with it.

Anyway, what were you saying about keeping an open mind?

As I said earlier, I'm not here to defend Lee. But I question your motives. You ask questions and make statements. So I challenge you on those points.

My interest is in keeping a useful resource online. I want WoS to stay online. Why, well because I find WoS a useful site. Enough web sites about 1980s and 1990s computers have gone off line already.

Excuse me, but I never said "Lee pays for the server". WoS was free and is still free.

Further, there are forums and websites where the owner/operator does ask for money towards running the site. In actual fact, I have donated money to this very site. How much have you donated?

And here we go again. What has Lee done? No, I don't want a list of what you think he has done. I want a list of what you know, beyond reasonable doubt, that he has done. There is too much misinformation going on. Did you never get detention at school because someone in your class did something. As the teacher did not know who, the whole class got detention. That's what I see here. Blame being thrown around. At work once, my team got the blame for damage to a car owned by one of the high level managers (we were the only staff in the building at the time). But when the management reviewed the CCTV of the car park, no one was seen. A wheeled bin was however seen to move. So the cause was a gust of wind.The manager never said sorry to us.

But WoS is Lee's site you will say. Funny that, because elsewhere you want it to be your site...

And of course, how a site is run is down to the owner/operator. Despite what you think, the U.K. is not a full democracy and WoS forums (or indeed these forums) are also not a democracy. Lee has posted on WoS forums about the existing WoS team (see my earlier post).

But seriously, do you think all this knocking Lee and knocking WoS is helpful? Do you want WoS to close down?

And as to keeping an open mind, if I was the owner/operator of WoS, I surely would have been tempted to delete some of the unhelpful posts and threads. Or do as CPCWiki does and move them to "The Hall of Shame" area.

So Rich, what have you contributed to the Spectrum community recently?

Mark

[Guesser]

I don't think this discussion is in any way productive. Quite the opposite in fact.

[jmk]

Mark, I think you are making the mistake of assuming there are only two sides in the community: "friend" and "enemy".

Nobody wants WoS to close down, but we have had to face the facts and realise that the only thing that can be saved is the content of WoS and (maybe) the spirit of it.

This point has been reached, somewhat painfully. As each week passes, the circumstances get worse and we can only hope that WoS continues just that little bit longer. But, it will be a WoS where fewer and fewer people are allowed to post, on fewer and fewer subjects.

[Guesser]

The biggest loss if WoS ever shuts down is the vast wealth of knowledge in the forum archive. I know there's a humongous quantity of crap in there too, but a lot of useful stuff gets posted in 15 years or however far back the database reaches at this point.

Discussions may have moved elsewhere, and all the infoseek data can be stuck in a new database, but all those hundreds of thousands of forum posts are trapped there hard to search and at risk of disappearing forever.

[Mike Davies]

All the information on WoS that I have referred to is already available on WoS or it's forums. Or was in the now discontinued Wikipedia page on WoS. Or is available on other public sites (like the internet archive).

Lee has already said that he helped Einar with the WoS data. So Einar did start ZXDB from scratch, but he did have help with the WoS data and it's format. He has also had help from other people I believe (although to be honest, I have not followed his every step, so I don't know any details).

When Lee took over WoS, WoS was already in trouble (lack of updates, forum software faults and server problems). As Martjin was not spending much time on it any-more. If you can find them, within WoS forums there are gaps in time due to the forums or the whole site going off-line. This happened multiple times (and no, I did not record the details). Then WoS crashed off-line completely. Lee did what he could and he got something back-up.

I am aware of all of this, and my conclusions on technical architecture and approach used to build a replacement still stand.

If you were tasked with recovering and rebuilding an entire large web site, that was using a mishmash of old obsolete software glued together with custom code, how would you do it?

In very much the same way Einar has approached it. In terms of prioritisation:

• Preserve the existing data
• Render that preserved data as a website
• Provide the simplest collaborative process to update/correct data
• Iterate and improve

Einar saw the importance of first preserving the existing data, and shared the fruits of his work. That's goal 1 achieved. Peter and Daniel independently prototyped a website using that data, because Einar shared that data. That's goal 2 achieved. Hikoki -- or was it hikaru? -- collated data on new games released after 2012 that are not on WoS, in a spreadsheet. That was quickly imported into ZXDB. That's goal 3 working.

What remains to be seen is whether the current good-enough solution of Einar being the gatekeeper for updating ZXDB is sustainable. The data is in a much better position. It's in the form of MySQL import statements, which means anyone with general web development skills can take this data and be their own gatekeeper.

Also, note the approach. Started with just Einar. Then Peter joined by building a website on-top of Einar's data. Then other people offered their help to Peter, so now Peter has a small team helping him produce the Spectrum Computing website. Daniel started with his own website (ZXInfo), and is now also sending Einar updates and corrections, so there's at least a team of 2 working on the data updates. Before there was just Martjin, now there's a core team of 3 solidifying around the ZXDB/SpectrumComputing model.

If someone decides a CMS with fine-grained permissions is necessary, he can grab a copy of Einar's MySQL import files, spin up a database and go ahead with building out this CMS. The advantage of Einar's approach is that neither the website nor the data are dependent on having a CMS. In this model, it is not a critical must-have feature.

Einar and Peter's agility has created a viable alternative. One that's also been conducive to growing a network of collaborators. That's starkly different to Fogarty's approach, which supposedly started with a world-class development team, but is now looks to be just one guy doing the development alone.

And keep in mind that Lee wants members of WoS to help maintain the site. He does not want to do everything himself.

Lets say Fogarty's approach hasn't been conducive to that. Help has been offered by multiple people over the past few years, all rebuffed and declined. Einar bent over backwards to help Fogarty, even offering writing the import scripts to import ZXDB to whatever database schema Fogarty has.

Whoever took on the WoS site was going to have a lot of work to do.

Yes, Einar and Peter have spend a good deal of time to get to where they are, and within a year they are further ahead than Fogarty has been in 3. Einar has been open about his work, so the WOS data is no longer in danger of being lost. Peter has a small team developing this site.

The key point is that the most important goal was to preserve the existing data in a state it could be used. Migrating it into a MySQL database, and making the MySQL dump itself available to the community, damn that was smart!

[ramsrc]

I think everyone needs to be very careful here. Much mud slinging has taken place over an extended period of time - and in my humble opinion it is now time to stop.

I see this whole situation as follows:

The original World of Spectrum as developed by Martijn was a tremendous achievement - I was tasked with writing a CMS for the company I worked for in the early days of the Internet, because there wasn't anything available at the time and it is a huge undertaking. Even more so for a person working in their own time.

Things were on the wane when the current ownership took over. It was decided - rightly or wrongly - not to touch the existing code, but to develop from the ground up. I don't know what Martijn's code looks like - so I can't comment on whether this was the right or wrong decision. However, I wouldn't want to touch the code of my old CMS these days, given the alternatives.

The task of rewriting everything from scratch is huge, progress has been slow, and the group responsible for WOS prefer not to tell every user about everything. (Which is their right).

That is just about all the conclusions that one can draw from this. Of course, other people will have more knowledge than I do but a the end of the day, this is a hobby - we are all here because we like the Spectrum. Everyone is different, and we need to respect those differences. I actually moved outside of the forum and did some reading on the freely available Social Media sites (which I very rarely do), and quite frankly I was absolutely shocked at some of the things I read.

I believe there is room for more than one site - the way things are looking at the moment, one will be more community driven, and one will be more of a personal site - but that isn't a problem. The main thing is that the community spirit continues. To be honest, I am very close to throwing in the towel because nobody deserves some of the things that are happening at the moment. Sure, I probably won't be a huge loss to the community - but any lost member is a loss to the community as a whole.

This is not aimed at anyone specifically, but to everyone - Please, please, please think before you type - and use your common sense!

[PeterJ]

The biggest loss if WoS ever shuts down is the vast wealth of knowledge in the forum archive.

I agree 100%. Let us all hope that never happens. I also join you in the hope the search works again soon.