World of Spectrum....

Y'know, other stuff, Sinclair related.
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Ralf
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Ralf »

Yes, it's a sad story what happened to WOS. It proves how much depends on a single man, his commitment and personality.

But personally I also wouldn't like to make some hate threads here. I hope we'll be able to build something worthy here. Maybe not as splendid as WOS in its golden years as we are older, busier, more tired and many folks are no longer with us, but still a nice, friendly place to hang out.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by ADJB »

The last full dump I have of WOS taken on 7th December 2014 is 131gig (320963 files) so it could be that the archive.org mirror isn't complete.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by damieng »

Basically Martijn found love and got married.

I believe some people volunteered and found it harder to maintain than they expected and much more of a commitment. Additional help was rejected and things dragged on for ages, everyone got upset and that had a negative effect on further progress.

But then I've stayed pretty out of it so this is my at-a-very-long-arms-length interpretation.

[)amien
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Mike Davies
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Mike Davies »

We can at least learn from the mistakes WoS have made, and figure out how to nurture a thriving and active community. Martjin did some things very very right to get WoS the prominence it received.

My personal opinion is such a project isn't a one-man operation, and needs a team. And that team needs the community support and backing, and also needs to earn the community's trust.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by pak21 »

It's also worth noting that Martijn was pretty much doing a full-time job (in terms of hours) maintaining WoS - on top of his actual real life job. Not surprising that other people couldn't keep up with that level of effort.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by richl »

This is my view regarding WoS. It may not be yours but I've tried to keep it as level-headed as I can. I've tried to keep mud-slinging to a minimum but it's hard to not name names since they (in my opinion) are at the heart of the issue. I'm not trying to troll/attack/slag off whatever - seriously - but skirting around the elephant in the room would be pointless. We ought to be encouraging healthy, rational discussion as supressing it has (again: in my opinion) led to where we are now.

The way I see it is that WoS was put together as a collaborative effort in order to catalogue and discuss everything Spectrum-related and act as a unified single point of reference for the online community as a whole. It was extremely well maintained and organised by one person, namely Martijn, but its content was mostly provided by its users.

Since Lee has taken over it has moved away from being a collaborative effort into "World of Lee" where no-one else's opinion matters. Users can submit content but who knows where it'll end up or if it'll ever be publicly accessible? Questions about Lee's "big secret plan" for the future of the site are forbidden or mostly just ignored. After years of apparent non-activity this has eventually led to fragmentation in the so-called community where breakway groups have been formed and even certain parts of WoS that ought to be publicly visible have been siphoned off into the mess that is Facebook, where even there only those select few who don't say anything to offend fragile egos are allowed in.

With any sort of collaborative project like what was originally going on at WoS there almost needs to be a clearly defined mission statement or terms of use - almost something like how Wikipedia explains what its purpose is. ZXDB seems to me to be a really excellent solution to what's happened over the last few years and I sincerely hope this website that's running off it can become the new point of reference for the Spec and the scene as a whole can move forward in a more harmonious fashion.

I was going to make some comment about that device and its association with WoS which really was the final straw for many people but I think we're all a bit fed up by it now. I just hope justice prevails.

Right then, I think that's me all WoSSed out now. Positivity-only from now on.... :D
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by ToonTeddy »

PeterJ wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:56 pm
ZXDunny wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:15 pm I've jumped ship for this place, ever since the phrase "zxdb" was blocked on WoS. It's a shame, but I don't see the site surviving much longer now - but we really, really need a backup of all the files in the database. Quite a few of my scanned books are up there.
Hello Paul,

Nice to have you on board sir.

There is a full mirror of WoS on archive.org. it's 89GB though. I have a secure copy for my own personal use...

https://archive.org/details/World_of_Sp ... 017_Mirror
Just a speccy fan chipping in. This was my main concern if anything happens to WOS, where would the files go, I'm glad that there are mirrors around.
I only registered here in case anything happens and I want my ZX fix. :)
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Ralf »

It's also worth noting that Martijn was pretty much doing a full-time job (in terms of hours) maintaining WoS - on top of his actual real life job.
I remember him saying that he worked 10-15 hours per week on the site. It's not maybe full time job but it is a lot of time for sure.

In the final years, still before he met that Thai woman he seemed, at least for me, tired with WOS. I suppose 17 years (1995-2012) of work may be more than enough for the biggest enthusiast. If you think about it he never came later for ocassional posting after giving website to Lee and seems not to care any more, totally closed that period of his life

The problem with Martijn's work that he invented it all alone. It didn't use standard database like MySql. As I understand it was custom database existing in one example in the world with custom query language and lot of hacks. When Lee saw it, he decided that he's not touching it and building everything from scratch. The rest we know - Lee's progress was incredibly slow and when asked about it he didn't gave answers but just reacted with anger. He also turned out to be unable to cooperate with other people. He always claims to be an experienced IT specialist but I seriously wonder if he ever worked on a bigger team project.

ZXDB is a completely different project - it's very transparent and we see progress each week. Several people work on it. While it remains a mammoth task I can see a light in the tunnel :) Such things cannot be done by a single man because it will always end in burnout and terrible delays.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by 1024MAK »

To be fair, you can't blame Lee for going down the rebuild it from scratch route.
And, also, until he got the "foundations" sorted, it would have been difficult to work with a team.

Has it been slower than anyone would have liked? Yes. But the fact is, WoS is still there. At least someone saved it, and is still working on it.

Meanwhile, how many other sites about 1980s and 1990s computers have disappeared without much trace?

The other project has not helped.

How many here actually took the time to look at the Wikipedia "talk" page about WoS? How many saw the mini war that was going on there? Whatever else, people actively attacking WoS just because they had personal problems with Lee is well out of order.

Maybe, just maybe, progress with WoS may have been a little bit further on if Lee had not had all the distractions.

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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Ralf »

How many here actually took the time to look at the Wikipedia "talk" page about WoS? How many saw the mini war that was going on there? Whatever else, people actively attacking WoS just because they had personal problems with Lee is well out of order.
I suppose this Wikipedia affair is something 99% of people don't know what was it all about. I only know that there was a Wikipedia article about WOS and one day it disappeared after some fighting.

I didn't wanted to bring it but it's probably connected to this sad Vega+ affair. To make it short David Levy is a very shady businessman and Lee decided to become his spokesman defending his objectionable businesses. Now he admits foul play but still does it on Facebook and other media, forbiding any discussion on WOS.

Vega's delayed project full of marketing deception made some people angry which focused mainly on Lee and not Levy. He made quite a lot of enemies. I believe it's they who made this Wiki article disappear. They also contacted copyright owners and in result permission for some games like Myth were withdrawn for WOS. Generally Lee's actions on Vega project backfired at WOS and community around it. I'll repeat what was said many times before - world would be a better place without this Vega campaign at all.

By the way - admins, please close this thread anytime when you decide we say too much.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Mike Davies »

It took Einar a month to convert Martjin's "custom format" to a relational database import. And it took a few weeks for Spectrum Computing to emerge from that. A year after Einar started, and ZXDB is being actively updated, new features and content being brought it. It's ticking along quite smoothly.

The delays of the replacement WoS aren't caused by criticism, they are caused by the technical decision to build a CMS from scratch. It's a classic boil the ocean mistake. That's then compounded by alienating developers who have the skills and expertise to contribute. What's left is one guy, trying to build an ivory tower solution, plodding along, discouraged every step of the way because there's no visible progress. While all the people who can help on the content side waiting for this CMS to materialise so they can finally start adding in the existing content, that's now 2-3 years out of date.

Einar has shown the more practical and agile path, export the data into a database. Allow people to build a websites on top of that database. Hey presto, an actively maintained catalogue that can be perused by anyone, who can then channel corrections and updates that get added to the database. If a CMS is indeed required, it can be built on the other side of the database, as a backend. That's a great example of technical architecture, deferring the decision about what CMS to use, and then finding out you have a minimal viable product that's actually giving value to users without even dealing with the CMS question.

Fogarty chose the big-bang approach, Einar took the iterative path.
Last edited by Mike Davies on Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by ToonTeddy »

I think a lot of it comes from people blaming Lee for a lot of the Vega+ problems, he's an easy target as he's there on the FB Wos page and on the WOS forums. The other two people who are actually involved (although very slowly) in the Vega+ are harder to reach. And as we all know, it's easy to be a 'keyboard warrior' and hide behind a made up name.

I love George's video's on youtube they're entertaining but I would like to see both him and Lee sit down and have an honest and brutal chat about what's been going on.

I'm no one just a speccy fan who's sad about all this nonsense and I would be devastated if any archive of WOS of any other speccy related documents vanished from the internet.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by 1024MAK »

@Mike Davies - I'm not here to defend Lee. That he can do himself. Einar has indeed done a lot of good work. As has Peter.
I could build a car in a month, but it would not be the same as one designed over many years by a professional vehicle manufacturer and build in a purpose designed factory. Until Lee has got the new WoS to say 90% of what he set out to do, it's rather too early to properly judge the situation. Also please note I am not having a dig at anyone, and I am most certainly not comparing web sites with cars. I'm just saying that there are different routes.

The original WoS site appears to have been build using a number of off-the-shelf software packages that were then glued together with custom code. That sounds like it was a right pain to maintain. Can you blame anyone for trying to avoid such a system?

Anyway, I think most users will have had enough of this subject. We need to look forward to the future. I for one think that having more than one site for a popular computer like the Spectrum is a good thing.

Mark
Last edited by 1024MAK on Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Hikaru »

Well, personally I'm just glad the people at SC have put the final missing piece in. It's probably OK to covertly hope 'dat old WoS spirit' will live on in the end. :)
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Re: World of Spectrum....

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1024MAK wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:31 pmThe original WoS site appears to have been build using a number of off-the-shelf software packages that were then glued together with custom code. That sounds like it was a right pain to maintain. Can you blame anyone for trying to avoid such a system?
Both Fogarty and Einar started from the same position, Martjin's data. Except Fogarty has had a 3 year head start.

There's nothing unprofessional about agile development and iterative releases, this is how the Web development world works.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

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Mike Davies wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:50 pm
1024MAK wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:31 pmThe original WoS site appears to have been build using a number of off-the-shelf software packages that were then glued together with custom code. That sounds like it was a right pain to maintain. Can you blame anyone for trying to avoid such a system?
Both Fogarty and Einar started from the same position, Martjin's data. Except Fogarty has had a 3 year head start.

There's nothing unprofessional about agile development and iterative releases, this is how the Web development world works.
Einar has not built a web site. And even I could grab the data from WoS and populate a database. That's not the issue. It was never the issue.
What Lee, Einar and Peter are doing are all different things.

Both Einar and Peter have said that what they are doing is to provide something that is an alternative to WoS, not to replace it. Therefore it is not the SAME.

@Mike Davies - If you are so confident, write a Spectrum game for me in three days that is a proper playable game. Should be simple for you. The Spectrum is a simple computer simple compared to a modern server running a full featured web site.

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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by 1024MAK »

For anyone who is not blinded by the large amounts of misinformation, rumours, wild speculation and in some cases, down right lies, I wish to point out that there are as usual precious few actual facts. On that basis, I refuse to follow a pack of blind sheep.

People, please open your eyes. Keep an open mind. Question what people say. Not just comments from people who you don't think you can trust, but also those who may be stirring up trouble. It is in no true Spectrum enthusiasts interest for a war to break out.

Would the Spectrum world really be a better place if hate and anger caused so much friction that a web site devoted to the Spectrum was forced to close, or to wither away and die?

I support both WoS and I also support the efforts of both Einar and Peter.

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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Pegaz »

You're right Mark, but some things have happened and the least we can expect is an explanation.
Closing two good threads (ZXDB and SC), as well as the censorship of the spectrumcomputing website is shameful and can not be justified, in any way.
How do you expect us to react, if people are banning without valid reason and presented evidence (e.g. RMartens), forbid the discussion on the Vega+ console, constant restrictions, threats and prohibitions on the front page of the site.
All I wanted to ask, I did it right there on wos, but instead of answering, we only received a deafening silence and total ignorance.
Do you have an explanation for such behavior?
Perhaps we should all blindly and silently accept any such decision, without any questions or clarifications.
Sorry, but I cant.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

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1024MAK wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:32 pm@Mike Davies - If you are so confident, write a Spectrum game for me in three days that is a proper playable game. Should be simple for you. The Spectrum is a simple computer simple compared to a modern server running a full featured web site.
This is bizarre, what's that supposed to prove? My expertise is in architecting and building web sites and web applications, not Spectrum games. The skills are not readily transferrable since there is a substantial difference in abstraction levels.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by 1024MAK »

Pegaz wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:14 pm You're right Mark, but some things have happened and the least we can expect is an explanation.
Closing two good threads (ZXDB and SC), as well as the censorship of the spectrumcomputing website is shameful and can not be justified, in any way.
How do you expect us to react, if people are banning without valid reason and presented evidence (e.g. RMartens), forbid the discussion on the Vega+ console, constant restrictions, threats and prohibitions on the front page of the site.
All I wanted to ask, I did it right there on wos, but instead of answering, we only received a deafening silence and total ignorance.
Do you have an explanation for such behavior?
Perhaps we should all blindly and silently accept any such decision, without any questions or clarifications.
Sorry, but I cant.
Yes, someone is messing about. I don't know who locked the threads. One (Database model ZXDB) is currently not locked or closed. And I don't know if/what happened with the filters, but today I found that I could post "ZXDB" without problems. And I also don't know what was locked/closed earlier, or what "words" were unable to be posted.

Of course members should question when things do not seem right. Of course you should not blindly and silently accept any attempted censorship.

But at the same time, you should be careful that you don't get drawn to the wrong conclusions. Be careful not to blindly follow misinformation. Humans should be able to think for themselves and not act like "sheep".

It's only a short time since Lee restored the forums after a failure. And why would it be in Lee's interest to upset everyone? If most of the members currently on WoS forum leave, WoS forum will die a slow death. I don't think anyone wants that. Do you think Lee wants that?

At the same time, we already know that some people do want that. And no, I am not blaming them for what happened. But you never know who anyone is in a new forum like this one.

Something strange is going on. All I am saying, is open your eyes. Don't get hoodwinked.

Mark
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Re: World of Spectrum....

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Mike Davies wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:44 pm
1024MAK wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:32 pm@Mike Davies - If you are so confident, write a Spectrum game for me in three days that is a proper playable game. Should be simple for you. The Spectrum is a simple computer simple compared to a modern server running a full featured web site.
This is bizarre, what's that supposed to prove? My expertise is in architecting and building web sites and web applications, not Spectrum games. The skills are not readily transferrable since there is a substantial difference in abstraction levels.
Ahh, so there is the problem. You say that your "expertise is in architecting and building web sites and web applications". But that is something that I cannot judge you on. I just have your word. At the moment, there are plenty of words flying around, with very little substance, let alone actual facts. So word alone is not enough if you just post up comments knocking others. Especially if you yourself may not have all the relevant information. And your earlier comments lead me to think that its possible that you may not have all the relevant information. Hence my comments.

So if you don't write Spectrum games, do you play games on a Spectrum? Which is your favourite game? And what is your current high score in this Spectrum game?

Mark
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Pegaz »

I'm not a mind reader Mark and I dont know what anyone wants or what intentions are.
That's why many of us have been looking for an explanation of the past days, but we didnt get it.
Just a wall of silence.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

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1024MAK wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:24 pmHumans should be able to think for themselves and not act like "sheep".
Humans should possess something called 'common sense'.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

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Pegaz wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:00 pm I'm not a mind reader Mark and I dont know what anyone wants or what intentions are.
That's why many of us have been looking for an explanation of the past days, but we didnt get it.
Just a wall of silence.
All I know is that Lee said this:
Lee Fogarty wrote:Due to a failure within the WoS Admin team, it has been decided that all forum moderators are standing down to allow for new people to step in. I'd like to thank the team for their efforts over the last few years, and they will continue to contribute to WoS and the new site as before.
(link)

So it is possible that one of the WoS team was responsible for the thread locking/closure etc.

Lee tells me that he has reverted the changes, so the locked/closed threads are no longer locked/closed etc.

I don't know who was responsible. But I do know that whatever happens, if people don't like it, Lee will get the blame.

Mark
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Re: World of Spectrum....

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1024MAK wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:39 pm Ahh, so there is the problem. You say that your "expertise is in architecting and building web sites and web applications". But that is something that I cannot judge you on. I just have your word.
Google is your friend. LinkedIn is also your friend.

1024MAK wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:39 pm At the moment, there are plenty of words flying around, with very little substance, let alone actual facts. So word alone is not enough if you just post up comments knocking others. Especially if you yourself may not have all the relevant information. And your earlier comments lead me to think that its possible that you may not have all the relevant information. Hence my comments.
You should probably follow your own advice. Present this relevant information that you think others don't have that's material. These implications and hand-waving appeals to the unknown are discourteous and not conducive to moving the conversation forward.
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