World of Spectrum....

Y'know, other stuff, Sinclair related.
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hitm4n
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by hitm4n » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:52 pm

Mike Davies wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:21 pm
EdwardCatflap wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:35 am
Lee, I think it’s best for WOS and the Spectrum Community on a whole is if you give up WOS (or close it) and just leave the ‘scene’.
That's not correct. Lee can keep WoS as his own personal fiefdom. The problem is having such a person, who has lost/thrown away the respect and credibility of large chunks of the Spectrum community as the sole gatekeeper of Spectrum content archives, where he can keep using his control to cut out people in the community he dislikes. That's now a solved problem - he doesn't control ZXDB.

The Spectrum Computing site, and ZXDB underneath have succeeded in creating a means of contributing that isn't impaired or controlled by this one gatekeeper. I'd urge you, instead of demanding that Lee leave, double down and contribute to Spectrum Computing and ZXDB, support those avenues as best you can. There is nothing Lee can do to interfere with the ZXDB dataset. His main ambition seems to be to duplicate a large chunk of work that's already available for free in ZXDB -- that's his choice. As Napolean once said, "Never interrupt an enemy when he is making a mistake".
EdwardCatflap wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:35 am
Do the decent thing, just give it (WOS) up to someone who cares deeply for the Community or close it and let this site take over and get the scene back to what it was, nice friendly community chat about the ZX Spectrum and all things Sinclair related.
This site -- and ZXDB -- doesn't need Lee's permission to be the community website for the ZX Spectrum. This site has to earn that level of respect from the Spectrum community, one person at a time. That's what Martijn had to do when he built the World of Spectrum.

If Lee (or his "team") was interested in collaboration, and avoiding duplicate effort, and taking advantage of titles that don't exist in WoS currently, he/they could collaborate as equals, and feed in corrections and updates back into ZXDB. Lee doesn't control ZXDB. ZXDB is open, and available for anyone to use, and so far I've not seen a single example of it's creator and curator saying to any site that they can't use ZXDB -- much the opposite, to Einar's credit.
This is spot on. Well said Mark. Support this forum, this site and ZXDB. I hope Einar will continue to update ZXDB for a long time to come and i hope this site can become all it wants to be.
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I don't have anything cool to put here, so i'll just be off now to see a priest with yeast stuck between his teeth and his friend called Keith who's a hairpiece thief...

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Mike Davies
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Mike Davies » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:47 am

I think Einar, again, has nailed it perfectly when it comes to genuine inclusivity. ZXDB contains links to ZX Spectrum Reviews (currently offline, hopefully temporary), the TipShop, CASA (for adventure solutions). That's bringing together various community resources. I hope this is just the low-hanging-fruit, and it goes further, that ZXDB references any useful/informative online resource that relates to a particular entry: catalogue title, publisher, developer, label.

Like the entry for Avalon linking to Steve Turner's blog post talking about how he developed it as an event tree (http://graftgold.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07 ... ntrol.html), and Steve Wetherill on how he achieved the fast scrolling on Sidewize (http://stevewetherill.com/2015/02/24/th ... enanigans/); Graeme Mason's interview with Giovanni Zanetti about the making of Pippo (http://www.wizwords.net/the-making-ofpippo/).

Or, more technical things, like notes by people who have disassembled/reverse engineered games, like this one about The Great Escape (http://dpt.github.io/The-Great-Escape/) -- that was mentioned in another thread here.

Why should the only references for titles be 30-year old magazine articles? We're at the point where journalists, writers and fans are doing wonderful work in finding out about the games we grew up with. We are in a time where there's a growing interest and fascination about Spectrum games, developers and publishers. And ZXDB is in a great place to bring this knowledge together around the catalogue of titles (new and old). This will be a boon to people using ZXDB-powered sites to find out more about a game they are interested in.
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PeterJ
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by PeterJ » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:33 am

Hi @Mike Davies I see no reasons why these hyperlinks can't be added. We already have hyperlinks for authors and publishers. I suggest you send a PM to @Einar Saukas . We could extend the project you are working on to accept these as people find useful hyperlinks.
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Einar Saukas
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Einar Saukas » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:31 am

A number of inappropriate allegations involving myself were posted in this thread, about the time I was leaving on vacation, so I couldn't address them properly. Now that I have somewhat sorted out most accumulated work during my absence, it's finally time for me to address these points.

My apologies for resurrecting this discussion, but I couldn't leave false claims unanswered...
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Einar Saukas
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Einar Saukas » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:32 am

fogartylee wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:26 pm
But for further clarity, I also offered to write the javascript needed to access the WoS magazines API and display the thumbnails correctly, and ultimately by default have access to the hi-res pages without needing any additional work. Strangely that offer was ignored by the team here with no explanation.
Interesting.

You never really supported Spectrum Computing. Although you stated that Spectrum Computing and ZXDB were both censored at WoS forum without your knowledge (November 2017), 3 months later you are still keeping the Spectrum Computing thread blocked without an explanation.

The only time you really "offered support" to Spectrum Computing, it was actually an attempt to undermine and replace ZXDB. A week before Christmas, you contacted Spectrum Computing administrators without my knowledge, trying to convince them to adopt your new WoS API instead of ZXDB for magazines (initially), and expressing your desire for them to also do the same in other areas later.

Curiously, if Spectrum Computing had accepted your "offer", it would have less information about magazines, instead of more. At the time you made your offer, Spectrum Computing already provided MAGAZINE REFERENCES from pages about games and companies, for example. Just clicking on any of those links will open the magazine page. Or check all games referenced by a specific magazine issue, for instance. All this information is obtained from ZXDB database. In comparison, even nowadays your new WoS API can only provide magazines without any information about games, authors, and publishers related to them.

is it really surprising that Spectrum Computing wasn't interested in your "offer"?
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Einar Saukas
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Einar Saukas » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:34 am

fogartylee wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:33 am
The admins at the time had also spent (along with Martijn) some considerable time helping Einar create ZXDB.
Correct. The WoS admins (including yourself) helped me a lot in the first few months, when I started ZXDB, right after you decided to quit.

This is nothing new. I already mentioned it several times since ZXDB started, such as here (July 2016), here (December 2016), here (June 2017), and many other posts.

This information was also added to the ZXDB documentation a long time ago.

fogartylee wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:33 am
They had all expressed disappointment with his actions following our help
Wrong. Instead of expressing disappointment with my actions, they simply expressed disappointment that new WoS still didn't use ZXDB. Even after you kicked me out of your WoS admin group at Facebook, they still hoped there would be a way to work this out. For instance here (July 2017).

fogartylee wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:33 am
which - as we were told - was to help WoS, whereas it seemed afterwards the intentions were very different.
Wrong. The intentions behind ZXDB were never any different. These intentions were clearly explained since the very beginning, in my original post in the original ZXDB thread (July 2016):

"Just to make it clear, I'm not planning to implement any WoS replacement myself! I'm merely providing a database model that others can use. Based on previous forum posts about new WoS development, it seems the old WoS "legacy" database is quite messy. By providing a new "clean" database, I'm hoping to reduce the burden on whoever assumes responsibility over WoS development afterwards."

At the time, you even offered me to take over new WoS development and provided suggestions, but I declined your offer, explaining again that this was not my intention (July 2016).

However your own intentions changed multiple times within about a year:

Moreover, I will take this opportunity to repeat, one more time, my offer to help WoS. I volunteer to import all this content into new WoS, into whatever format or database schema is needed, as mentioned for instance here (June 2017). Keep in mind that ZXDB already contains the entire WoS archive, with thousands of fixes and improvements resulting from 18 months of hard work. It also contains almost 4,000 new entries, and integration with several more sites. Finally notice that, if you prefer to import data yourself into new WoS, then we have already provided a script to convert ZXDB content into old WoS format, presented in the original post of this thread (July 2017). Therefore exactly the same method you would be using to import data from old WoS files, could be used to import data from ZXDB converted to work like old WoS files, without absolutely no extra work from you.

Notice it's absurd that you keep refusing all my offers to help WoS, and at the same time claim I have no intention to help WoS! With your actions, you are giving the impression of exactly the opposite of your words, as if my actions had always been to help WoS, whereas it seemed afterwards your intentions were very different...

fogartylee wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:33 am
And as said on WoS - those actions weren't agreed by me, and the end result was that they have all left the role to concentrate on helping WoS with the database info instead.
Now you are not making any sense.

Your posts here (November 2017) and here (November 2017) suggested that you fired WoS admins because they started censorships without reason and without your knowledge. Are you now saying something different?

Also this information doesn't seem related to anything we were discussing in this thread. So what's your point exactly?

fogartylee wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:33 am
As an aside, I have since also gone against the admins votes by offering to assist ZXDB further which has been rejected.
Again you are not making any sense.

Do you mean you wanted to support ZXDB but WoS admins voted against it? Or do you mean WoS admins voted to support ZXDB but you opposed them?

Also are you referring to the time WoS admins (including yourself) supported ZXDB in the first few months? Or your lack of support ever since?

fogartylee wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:33 am
So sometimes they are right and sometimes they were wrong. It happens - there is a new team of admins now.
Once again, you are not making any sense.

Are you trying to imply that you firing your own WoS admins was my fault somehow? What's your point exactly?
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Rorthron
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Rorthron » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:51 am

Einar Saukas wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:31 am
My apologies for resurrecting this discussion, but I couldn't leave false claims unanswered...
There is no need to apologise. You are quite entitled to respond to the allegations Lee has made.

I would, however, like to remind everyone to keep the discussion in this this thread calm. This is clearly a subject that has caused frustration among many here. Let's not let things get out of hand.

(For the avoidance of any doubt, I am not at all suggesting that there is anything wrong with your posts, Einar. They clearly pass the calm-and-considered test. My comment is a general one. I am just trying to pre-empt any possible future problems more generally.)
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Einar Saukas
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Einar Saukas » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:13 am

Rorthron wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:51 am
I would, however, like to remind everyone to keep the discussion in this this thread calm. This is clearly a subject that has caused frustration among many here. Let's not let things get out of hand.
And I would like to reiterate your works!

Comments from everybody are (always) very much welcome, but let's keep a civil conversation based on facts, without personal attacks on anybody. Please?
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Einar Saukas
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Einar Saukas » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:18 am

ADJB wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:09 am
fogartylee wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:33 am
The admins at the time had also spent (along with Martijn) some considerable time helping Einar create ZXDB.
When was "the time" that time was spent by the admins and Martijn helping Einar?
When I started working on ZXDB, WoS admins helped me to figure out certain undocumented internal details of the old WoS archive, to ensure no information was lost when imported into ZXDB. Most of this support was provided by Gerard, but others also helped, including Lee that forwarded a few of my questions to Martijn.

This happened at the beginning of work on ZXDB, for a couple months in 2016. I already mentioned it in my last post above.

fogartylee wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:28 am
There's been a FB group chat around for a year. It was started when the core admin scripts were completed and we were ready to start working on individual sections. Einar joined around February or March - at which point we had already started uploading tables & CSV files of the output to be checked.
Lee, your answer has nothing to do with the question. I didn't join the WoS admin group at Facebook to get help. It was exactly the opposite, I joined it in order to help new WoS!

I joined the WoS admin group much later in February 2017, per your invitation, supposedly to discuss the best way to import data from ZXDB into new WoS. At this time, ZXDB already contained fully imported and validated information from old WoS archive, and also several months of work on thousands of bugfixes and improvements. In comparison, you had just started to work on importing data from old WoS and uploading this information into new WoS, with the intention to start bugfixes and improvements afterwards. The idea was to help new WoS avoid repeating all this work, and import data from ZXDB instead. It would save months of unnecessary work on new WoS development.

Instead, you kept me busy for 3 months discussing your excuses for not doing it -- such as claiming that auto-increments in a database were an obstacle to export data from it. In the meantime, you continued to work on trying to import data from old WoS, instead of ZXDB. It was getting really hard to avoid the conclusion that you just wanted to keep me waiting for an answer several more months, until you finished importing everything from old WoS, so you could claim "sorry it's too late to use ZXDB because I have already imported everything from old WoS"...

If you were talking seriously about the idea of importing data from ZXDB, why did you continue to focus your work on importing data from somewhere else instead of ZXDB, all the time during those 3 months, while discussing ZXDB with me?

After wasting 3 months presenting technical arguments against each one of your excuses, I finally decided to bring this discussion back to the WoS forum again. When I did it, you blocked my access to the WoS admin group. Even so, I never commented about it (because I consider all private conversation as confidential) until you decided yourself to make it public. More details were already described here (November 2017).
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Einar Saukas
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Einar Saukas » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:26 am

fogartylee wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:48 am
Unless you have access to the FB admins group then you have no idea of what discussions happened or didn't happen.
Exactly!

The problem is, we have completely different "recollections" of these WoS admin group discussions. My description is here, yours is here. They are so different, it's obvious they cannot be both true. One of us is clearly "misremembering" absolutely everything, intentionally or not.

There's only one way for people to find out. Let's release publicly our discussions! Obviously I'm not referring to any confidential or sensitive information about the WoS admin group. I only mean publishing the content of our relevant discussion threads from there.

As I mentioned before, I consider it's unethical to quote a private discussion without the other party's consent. Therefore I won't publish my discussions with you without your approval. However you have my consent to publish any discussions we had at the FB group, at your convenience. Feel free to choose yourself the thread(s) you want to publish, it's your choice! My only condition is publishing entire discussion thread(s) to avoid anything taken out of context.

We both have nothing to hide, right?

fogartylee wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:48 am
I was warned by several people in advance that it would be a mistake to aid Einar but chose to ignore the warnings.
Really? Can you name one non-fictional person that warned you about myself? So what did this non-fictional person say?
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