World of Spectrum....

Y'know, other stuff, Sinclair related.
fogartylee
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by fogartylee »

You do know the URL you posted is wrong?

I *think* I've fixed the leeching bug. I'm sure someone will let me know if I haven't....

The access to WoS data is far more & a lot easier than it was before. If anything, the walls are being knocked down.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by RMartins »

After my ban from WOS was included in this thread, I feel obliged to share the facts I know.
I did not want to get back to this subject, but I treasure transparency.

1 - My ban from WOS was due to a comment I made in the IndieGogo - ZX Spectrum Vega+
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the- ... #/comments

If you go throught a lot of clicking on "show more" link, you will eventually get there ("Rui Martins" is my username in indieGogo), since there is no search feature unfortunately.
Spoiler
Image
I stand by what I wrote, as a "wake up call"/warning, since I have known of worse happening for a lot less.
Today, I would write it in a different wording, since I have since realized it can be read in a different tone/context.

2 - I was banned on WOS because I had a similar username, on both websites.
There was no evidence that IndieGogo "Rui Martins", was in fact WOS "RMartins", since IndieGogo supposedly does not share the emails of it's users.

3 - I did not receive any feeback or warning that I was banned.
I got to know about it by a friend (I was busy with health issues in my family, so ZX surfing was low priority).

4 - I also seem to be the first user in WOS that had it's Avatar changed to an image with "User banned - Carry on".
Why ?
Your guess is as good as mine.


So, with the information provided above, take your own conclusions.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by 5MinuteRetro »

fogartylee wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:26 pm Just for clarity...
I'm all for that. I think all of us here are, which is why we're here. So, just for clarity, why *exactly* - and with clarity - were mentions of Spectrum Computing and ZXDB banned from WoS? The reasons expressed at the time on WoS were neither exact nor clear. At least, not so I saw: I abandoned the listing WoS ship at precisely this point. So yeah, I'd love some clarity.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by fogartylee »

The admins at the time had also spent (along with Martijn) some considerable time helping Einar create ZXDB. They had all expressed disappointment with his actions following our help which - as we were told - was to help WoS, whereas it seemed afterwards the intentions were very different.

And as said on WoS - those actions weren't agreed by me, and the end result was that they have all left the role to concentrate on helping WoS with the database info instead.

As an aside, I have since also gone against the admins votes by offering to assist ZXDB further which has been rejected. So sometimes they are right and sometimes they were wrong. It happens - there is a new team of admins now.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by 5MinuteRetro »

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:33 am The admins at the time had also spent (along with Martijn) some considerable time helping Einar create ZXDB. They had all expressed disappointment with his actions following our help which - as we were told - was to help WoS, whereas it seemed afterwards the intentions were very different.

And as said on WoS - those actions weren't agreed by me, and the end result was that they have all left the role to concentrate on helping WoS with the database info instead.

As an aside, I have since also gone against the admins votes by offering to assist ZXDB further which has been rejected. So sometimes they are right and sometimes they were wrong. It happens - there is a new team of admins now.
Was that a reply to my above comment? If so, still seeking exactness and clarity. If not, still waiting.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by ADJB »

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:33 am The admins at the time had also spent (along with Martijn) some considerable time helping Einar create ZXDB.
When was "the time" that time was spent by the admins and Martijn helping Einar?
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by fogartylee »

ADJB wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:09 am
fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:33 am The admins at the time had also spent (along with Martijn) some considerable time helping Einar create ZXDB.
When was "the time" that time was spent by the admins and Martijn helping Einar?
There's been a FB group chat around for a year. It was started when the core admin scripts were completed and we were ready to start working on individual sections. Einar joined around February or March - at which point we had already started uploading tables & CSV files of the output to be checked.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Rorthron »

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:33 am The admins at the time had also spent (along with Martijn) some considerable time helping Einar create ZXDB. They had all expressed disappointment with his actions following our help which - as we were told - was to help WoS, whereas it seemed afterwards the intentions were very different.
I am somewhat bemused by this account.

In case you have forgotten, Lee, the reason why Einar started the ZXDB project was because you quit WoS ("Had enough", July 2016). In that thread you explicitly stated that you wanted someone else to take over and you explicitly offered to help anyone who was willing to do so. All Einar did was to respond to your request and take on responsibilities you had decided to abandon.

When you changed your mind and decided to hang around, Einar continued to offer his help to you, but you repeatedly and often quite rudely spurned his efforts.

Your characterisation of Einar's actions and motives is quite at odds with the facts.

Moreover, I find it interesting that you have confirmed what we suspected all along, that the moves to censor mentions of ZXDB and Spectrum Computing were done out of spite and with no purpose other than to harm another Spectrum website (one which was not even involved in your dispute!).
fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:33 amAnd as said on WoS - those actions weren't agreed by me.
Yet you still keep the Spectrum Computing update thread on WoS locked.
fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:33 amAs an aside, I have since also gone against the admins votes by offering to assist ZXDB further which has been rejected. So sometimes they are right and sometimes they were wrong. It happens - there is a new team of admins now.
Just what are you trying to say here? Are you now suggesting you think it was right, after all, to censor and block mentions of another Spectrum website? Or are you conceding the WoS admin team was wrong? And what does SC's decision not to accept your offer have to do with it?
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by fogartylee »

Unless you have access to the FB admins group then you have no idea of what discussions happened or didn't happen. I was warned by several people in advance that it would be a mistake to aid Einar but chose to ignore the warnings.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by balford »

Quite interesting that Richard, Gerard and David have been thrown under the bus as far as WoS moderation goes. Funnily enough whilst I don't always agree with them I've found them somewhat more approachable than the admin who purports to be acting in the site's best interests...
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Rorthron »

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:48 am Unless you have access to the FB admins group then you have no idea of what discussions happened or didn't happen.
There was extensive public discussion of this matter in the WoS forums, during which you had every opportunity to raise any relevant matters.
fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:48 amI was warned by several people in advance that it would be a mistake to aid Einar but chose to ignore the warnings.
So do you now consider the creation of ZXDB "a mistake"? If so, why?

You seem to have made no reponse on my other points.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by fogartylee »

Martijn was working 35hrs a week on top of a full time job because he was the only one that could update the database and move the files. Most of the holidays he took to catch up on infoseek updates, and when he did go away there was often server problems. Added to that, many years ago he wanted to close the forums because they were more hassle than they were worth. At that point he practically left the forums and handed over admin to me, and we took on new moderators.

So, when he announced privately he was leaving, it was decided it would no longer be a one-man job. A system has been put into place that means anyone can be added to the team and maintain their own part of the site without worrying about breaking other parts or losing data. Files can be maintained without the need for FTP, etc...

It was also known to people working on the data and testing the scripts that the database would be rapidly increasing with a lot more information. It's not practical to use ZXDB with that amount of data - or any site via SQL statements. I can't remember the last time I looked at the new WoS database because it's created by the system as we add new modules, and with correct permissions in the admin can have new fields added or existing ones changed as needed. Einar also knew this, so when he was publicly asking for the database schema, he knew full well those modules hadn't been completed yet, and therefore there was no schema.

What you have now is exactly where Martijn was - one person performing updates, and to update the website you need to run the SQL statements. That's fine. But Einar always stated that once WoS is finished he has no intention of keeping ZXDB going. Has that changed? Who is taking over? And again you have one person maintaining the data - and in this case several sites.

What happens if archive.org receive copyright complaints? Will they argue their case, or disable the WoS files? Files which they are happy to advertise as WoS backup without actually having permission to host them. Are they going to spend hours on the phone speaking to copyright holders, or visiting them personally, as I have done? I doubt it.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by balford »

May I be the first to call 'Bollocks'.

Really Lee, you're insulting people's intelligence here.

You're a chancer, spoofer, and whatever other adjective suits a person who takes on a project way above their capability level.

The best thing you could do is to hand over WoS to a more capable team of people who can do it justice. However, your ego won't let you do that.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by RMartins »

If you @fogartylee are able to step out of your own private world, that virtual shell you live in, and take an honest look of all you have been writing, you might be surprised of how it sounds like.

Click on "number of posts" link, on the right, of one of your messages.
Your first message on this forum, was an attack ... and all others followed the same pattern.

You keep on attacking people, always pledging for the injustice, the betrayal of your poor working righteous self, like if the world is against you.
It's the other way around, you are going against the world!

Your actions, and toxic/oppressive behaviour, led to this.
You were living an illusion, the dream ended.

The community does not want to abandon, WOS.
The vast majority just came to the conclusion that we do not want to participate in WOS with you at the helm.

The problem is not WOS, it's the "type of management" being enforced in WOS.

So you replaced the Admins/moderators ... sure, that solves the problem, right ?
Is that why you are here attacking the people you blame of your misfortune ?

Notice that I wrote "your" and not WOS misfortune.
You take this too personaly.

No one, is rejecting, that somewhere in time, you were useful to the preservation of the community, and that you eventually contributed in a positive way, in the past. But it's just not true anymore.

If you think this through, what is your goal, with these bursts of accusations/comments ?

Are you expecting us to go back to WOS, with you as admin ?
Are you trying to convince us you are not responsible for the toxic/oppressing place WOS forum as become ?

You have to learn to let go, to know when you have failed, to admit it to yourself (not to us), and move on.

You wanted to leave.
So why did you stay ?
What kept you as admin ?

You seriously need professional help, to manage your insecurities and lack of purpose, if you are not WOS admin.
Because this is all it boils down to.

You feel abandoned by the community.
When in fact, it was you who ostracized the community ...

Hopefully this message will ground you to hearth again, and make you rethink your life.

I wish I could help you, but I don't know how.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by R-Tape »

balford wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:46 am May I be the first to call 'Bollocks'.

Really Lee, you're insulting people's intelligence here.

You're a chancer, spoofer, and whatever other adjective suits a person who takes on a project way above their capability level.

The best thing you could do is to hand over WoS to a more capable team of people who can do it justice. However, your ego won't let you do that.
Just in case things are hotting up. While I'm flabbergasted by some of his posts can we be sure we don't resort to insults. Don't give anyone a reason to hit the report post button.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by 1024MAK »

@Whacker post
Use these links:
http://live.worldofspectrum.org
https://www.creative-spectrum.co.uk

@ everyone who is hurling mud around the place. The unfounded accusations and bad language are not needed.
The WoS forum has a team of moderators (or administrators if you prefer that term). It is the moderator team that carry out the day to day moderation of the forum.

In other forums about 1980's and 1990's computers, the behaviour demonstrated here by members having a go at WoS administrators and moderators would not be tolerated. You would be receiving warnings and if these were ignored, then you would be banned.

So I would appreciate it if you can keep the discussion civil.

Mark
Last edited by 1024MAK on Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by gazaxian »

fogartylee wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:41 pm You do know the URL you posted is wrong?

I *think* I've fixed the leeching bug. I'm sure someone will let me know if I haven't....

The access to WoS data is far more & a lot easier than it was before. If anything, the walls are being knocked down.
Hey Lee

The best way to make WoS data easier to access is making it freely available to anyone. So why don't you do that?

It wouldn't mean ending you work on WoS, would show a real commitment to opening up the archive and go some way to repairing the terrible damage done to both Wos and your reputation.

Unfortunately, we've got to a point where it's near impossible for anything you say to be taken seriously. Realistically, you're only going to be judged on your actions so it's time to act.

I've got to admit I'm not optimistic. Your claims smack of Kim Jong-Il levels of desperation to cling onto power though instead of the threat of nuclear Armageddon we're under the Damocles sword of some Popular Computing Weekly scans going unseen.

While I've got your attention can you remove my email address from the WoS database? Getting banned for expressing concerns about the Vega you later confirmed as accurate is a bit galling though bearable.

Getting cack handed spam from you after that banning is a bit much though.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by gazaxian »

1024MAK wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:00 am @Whacker post
Use these links:
http://live.worldofspectrum.org
https://www.creative-spectrum.co.uk

@ everyone who is hurling mud around the place. The unfounded accusations and bad language are not needed.
The WoS forum has a team of moderators (or administrators if you prefer that term). It is the moderator team that carry out the day to day moderation of the forum.

In other forums about 1980's and 1990's computers, the behaviour demonstrated here by members having a go at WoS administrators and moderators would not be tolerated. You would be receiving warnings and if these were ignored, then you would be banned.

So I would appreciate it if you can keep the discussion civil.

Mark
To be fair Mark you've accused people of out and out lying or being blind sheep in this thread.

I don't think that should result in a warning or a ban for yourself but the quid pro quo here is you shouldn't be so intolerant of other people expressing their opinions in a similar manner.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Mike Davies »

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 am What you have now is exactly where Martijn was - one person performing updates, and to update the website you need to run the SQL statements. That's fine. But Einar always stated that once WoS is finished he has no intention of keeping ZXDB going. Has that changed? Who is taking over? And again you have one person maintaining the data - and in this case several sites.
SQL isn't an arcane system or language. It's generally known by a large number of developers, and it's basic enough of a structure that third-party tools can be produced, or even are available, to import, export, and modify data in that format. This is what openness looks like.

Maybe JSON is a more flexible data format, but using SQL hasn't prevented ZXDB sites from using non-SQL options for storage, take for example Thomas Kolbeck's ZX Info: http://sinclair.kolbeck.dk/home -- it's using ElasticSearch, which isn't an SQL engine. (And his source code is publicly available so any developer can checkout a copy and do the same thing). This is what openness looks like.

If Einar decides to stop working on ZXDB, anyone can take the latest snapshot and continue from there. Einar has solved the actual problem here, of not having the entire dataset reliant on a single person. Anyone who is interested can continue, either alone or collaborating with others, to keep updates flowing. That's what openness looks like.

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 am What happens if archive.org receive copyright complaints?
The Internet Archive has a long history of archiving material in a number of industries. It's more likely World of Spectrum will crumble in the face of copyright threats before The Internet Archive does.
fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 am What happens if archive.org receive copyright complaints? Will they argue their case, or disable the WoS files? Files which they are happy to advertise as WoS backup without actually having permission to host them.
Interesting. Are you saying no-one from the WorldOfSpectrum website got contacted by The Internet Archive, and no-one from WorldOfSpectrum gave permission, or assisted in anyway in The Internet Archive getting hold of a WoS backup?
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Rorthron »

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 am Martijn was working 35hrs a week on top of a full time job because he was the only one that could update the database and move the files. Most of the holidays he took to catch up on infoseek updates, and when he did go away there was often server problems. Added to that, many years ago he wanted to close the forums because they were more hassle than they were worth. At that point he practically left the forums and handed over admin to me, and we took on new moderators.

So, when he announced privately he was leaving, it was decided it would no longer be a one-man job. A system has been put into place that means anyone can be added to the team and maintain their own part of the site without worrying about breaking other parts or losing data. Files can be maintained without the need for FTP, etc...

It was also known to people working on the data and testing the scripts that the database would be rapidly increasing with a lot more information. It's not practical to use ZXDB with that amount of data - or any site via SQL statements. I can't remember the last time I looked at the new WoS database because it's created by the system as we add new modules, and with correct permissions in the admin can have new fields added or existing ones changed as needed. Einar also knew this, so when he was publicly asking for the database schema, he knew full well those modules hadn't been completed yet, and therefore there was no schema.

What you have now is exactly where Martijn was - one person performing updates, and to update the website you need to run the SQL statements. That's fine. But Einar always stated that once WoS is finished he has no intention of keeping ZXDB going. Has that changed? Who is taking over? And again you have one person maintaining the data - and in this case several sites.

What happens if archive.org receive copyright complaints? Will they argue their case, or disable the WoS files? Files which they are happy to advertise as WoS backup without actually having permission to host them. Are they going to spend hours on the phone speaking to copyright holders, or visiting them personally, as I have done? I doubt it.
Lee, none of this has anything to do with the preceding discussion, for example, the blocking of ZXDB and Spectrum Computing, and the allegations you seem to be making against Einar.

You again seem not to have responded to any of my points.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by PeterJ »

grahamken wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:05 pm Hmmm...that would be an ecumenical matter!
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Mike Davies »

fogartylee wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:11 pm As for the forums - the search works as well as it can with 1m comments and the size of the database makes it very difficult to host anywhere but a dedicated service. It uses Sphinx as the search service which is about as good as it gets. Without Sphinx it takes 30-60 seconds to do a full search of the forums - with it, it takes less than a second.
The WoS forum posts amount to just over 1.1Gb uncompressed (distributed over 54,471 threads). That's well within the feature-set of a VPS.

Also, Google has a successful track record of making things findable and searchable. So allowing Google to crawl and index the forums is the first step towards making the forum searchable without needing a self-hosted search service (VPS or dedicated).
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by EdwardCatflap »

Let’s tackle the elephant in the room..

Lee, I think it’s best for WOS and the Spectrum Community on a whole is if you give up WOS (or close it) and just leave the ‘scene’.

You have no credibility left, your part in the ZX Vega debacle and dubious attempts to get out of it and your ‘if you disagree with something I say I will ban you’ sulks has left your reputation in tatters. WOS is a mess since you took over. Broken links everywhere and the forums are dead.

Not forgetting your deliberate trolling of Zx Vega backers by taking a dog eared and beaten up Zx Vega to Spectrum 35.

Do the decent thing, just give it (WOS) up to someone who cares deeply for the Community or close it and let this site take over and get the scene back to what it was, nice friendly community chat about the ZX Spectrum and all things Sinclair related.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by R-Tape »

What do you really expect to achieve with that post? You've probably already said this to him/about him all over social media. If you think Lee should be held to account then do it over at WoS.

Any more attacks and you make SC look bad. Please stop it.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Sokurah »

EdwardCatflap wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:35 am
Lee, I think it’s best for WOS and the Spectrum Community on a whole is if you give up WOS (or close it) and just leave the ‘scene’.

You have no credibility left, your part in the ZX Vega debacle and dubious attempts to get out of it and your ‘if you disagree with something I say I will ban you’ sulks has left your reputation in tatters. WOS is a mess since you took over. Broken links everywhere and the forums are dead.
A lot of people aren't happy with the way WoS is being handled, but to call the forums dead is a bit of an exaggeration.
The search engine certainly is broken, but on the whole the forum does work. And that is something he has fixed.

To ask for him to close WoS is making yourself look like a moron though. By all means - nuke the Chit Chat section - that's worthless anyway ... but there's a lot of useful information on that forum, that it would be a damn shame to not have access to anymore.
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