Search problem

Broken link? Feature request? Anything related to the Spectrum Computing website here.
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Rorthron
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Search problem

Post by Rorthron »

If I search for "Grandslam" in quick search or the publisher field, the results returned include titles by Quicksilva, Bug-Byte, and other companies in the same group. This might be intended behaviour, but it doesn't make much sense to me, and doesn't seem very helpful. Is there a way to search just for Grandslam titles?
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Rorthron
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Re: Search problem

Post by Rorthron »

Thanks, that's a kind offer, but I have got the list from WoS Infoseek. I am just baffled why SC cannot search by individual publisher. Publisher information is stored, and it seems to me to be an important search query. The current publisher search by group may be a feature, rather than a bug, but it seems to me unhelpful.
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Rorthron
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Re: Search problem

Post by Rorthron »

I"m not sure what happened to [mention]PeterJ[/mention] 's reply! It was there before.
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PeterJ
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Re: Search problem

Post by PeterJ »

Sorry [mention]Rorthron[/mention],

I wanted to check something out.

If you go to the Publisher page:

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... el_id=5522

Then click on Grandslam Video Ltd or Grandslam Interactive Ltd I think you get just their titles. Grandslam entertainments were the parent company.

I will speak to the others. Its that fine line about not excluding stuff in searches, but still making it useful.
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Einar Saukas
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Re: Search problem

Post by Einar Saukas »

Rorthron wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 7:12 pm If I search for "Grandslam" in quick search or the publisher field, the results returned include titles by Quicksilva, Bug-Byte, and other companies in the same group. This might be intended behaviour, but it doesn't make much sense to me, and doesn't seem very helpful. Is there a way to search just for Grandslam titles?
Quicksilva and Bug-Byte are companies owned by Grandslam Interactive:

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... el_id=5523

Therefore if you search for "Grandslam" you will get all titles published by Grandslam through its companies.

If you only want titles published directly by publisher Grandslam Entertainments, try searching for "Grandslam Entertainments" instead. You will get a much smaller list, although it will still include Argus Press Software (because that's the original name of Grandslam Entertainments).
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Rorthron
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Re: Search problem

Post by Rorthron »

PeterJ wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:10 pm Sorry @Rorthron,

I wanted to check something out.
That's OK. You just made me look like a madman! :)
Einar Saukas wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:11 pm Quicksilva and Bug-Byte are companies owned by Grandslam Interactive:

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... el_id=5523

Therefore if you search for "Grandslam" you will get all titles published by Grandslam through its companies.
I understand that these companies were part of the same group, but it does not entail that searches have to be dealt with at the group level. They were separate companies and separate labels within the group, and for a considerable period existed outside of the group.

It is also possible for search to function at the level of the individual label, as in WoS Infoseek. To me this seems far more useful. Titles were marketed under different labels, and these labels are the ones generally associated with titles. If I write The Birds and The Bees, what label comes to mind? Grandslam or Bug-Byte? What about Chuckie Egg? Grand Slam or A&F?
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Einar Saukas
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Re: Search problem

Post by Einar Saukas »

Rorthron wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:41 pm I understand that these companies were part of the same group, but it does not entail that searches have to be dealt with at the group level. They were separate companies and separate labels within the group, and for a considerable period existed outside of the group.

It is also possible for search to function at the level of the individual label, as in WoS Infoseek. To me this seems far more useful. Titles were marketed under different labels, and these labels are the ones generally associated with titles. If I write The Birds and The Bees, what label comes to mind? Grandslam or Bug-Byte? What about Chuckie Egg? Grand Slam or A&F?
This is tricky. If searches were restricted to a single company, then searching for "Elite Systems" wouldn't give you Batty, since it was published as "Hit-Pak". Searching for "Zigurat Software" wouldn't give you Sir Fred since it was published as "Made in Spain".

I'm not sure that's how most people would expect or prefer...

Anyway that's a discussion for [mention]PeterJ[/mention]. I just provide the database, it's not my decision how website maintainers decide to use it... For instance, searching for "Grandslam" at ZX-Info has a different behavior despite using exactly the same database:

https://zxinfo.dk/search/grandslam
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Re: Search problem

Post by kolbeck »

Einar Saukas wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 10:33 pm
I'm not sure that's how most people would expect or prefer...

Anyway that's a discussion for @PeterJ. I just provide the database, it's not my decision how website maintainers decide to use it... For instance, searching for "Grandslam" at ZX-Info has a different behavior despite using exactly the same database:

https://zxinfo.dk/search/grandslam
Yeah, search is not an exact science - ZXInfo approach is in general that you narrow down as you go, and don't have to consider 100 parameters before you press the button. That said, you might have found an unknown feature - as I would have expected a behaviour similar to the search on SC :-)

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Re: Search problem

Post by druellan »

Perhaps can be more clear if the publisher company has also the owner, ex: Bug-Byte Software (Grandslam Interactive Ltd)? Both as individual links.

Image
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PeterJ
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Re: Search problem

Post by PeterJ »

We will look at this, but I'm not going to make any rash decisions. The search code is hugely complex, and this is the first query of this type. In general I'm in favour of broad search.

It needs careful review. We do very much appreciate these reports. Keep the thoughts coming.
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Re: Search problem

Post by PeterJ »

How did you get on with the link I posted earlier [mention]Rorthron[/mention]?

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... el_id=5522
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Rorthron
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Re: Search problem

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Einar Saukas wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 10:33 pm This is tricky. If searches were restricted to a single company, then searching for "Elite Systems" wouldn't give you Batty, since it was published as "Hit-Pak". Searching for "Zigurat Software" wouldn't give you Sir Fred since it was published as "Made in Spain".
In those cases I personally would not want to see either title returned.
Einar Saukas wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 10:33 pm For instance, searching for "Grandslam" at ZX-Info has a different behavior despite using exactly the same database:

https://zxinfo.dk/search/grandslam
This is great! I also really like the compact presentation. Sorry, [mention]PeterJ[/mention] , but I'm jumping ship! :)

([mention]kolbeck[/mention] On a seoarate subject, I notice ZXInfo has the ZXDB "author" problem that was discussed here before. Steinar Lund is not an "author" of The Hunt for Red October. He just did the art for the packaging.)
PeterJ wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 2:07 am How did you get on with the link I posted earlier @Rorthron?

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... el_id=5522
It's better, but still includes some A&F, ASP, Argus Press titles. It's not so many that I can't ignore them, but ZXInfo has the exact information I am looking for.
druellan wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 11:40 pm Perhaps can be more clear if the publisher company has also the owner, ex: Bug-Byte Software (Grandslam Interactive Ltd)? Both as individual links.

Image
Yes, something like that would be better. For example, search could offer a choice of searching by publisher or by group of publishers.
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Re: Search problem

Post by kolbeck »

Rorthron wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:33 am
...
(@kolbeck On a seoarate subject, I notice ZXInfo has the ZXDB "author" problem that was discussed here before. Steinar Lund is not an "author" of The Hunt for Red October. He just did the art for the packaging.)
Yeah, looks like I missed the conversation about Author/Contributor issue. Will look into that shortly

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Einar Saukas
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Re: Search problem

Post by Einar Saukas »

Rorthron wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:33 am Yes, something like that would be better. For example, search could offer a choice of searching by publisher or by group of publishers.
Actually it should be easy to provide a "strict search" option in Advanced Searches. The implementation just need to use "publishers INNER JOIN search_by_names" instead of "search_by_publishers INNER JOIN search_by_names".

I can help with the technical details if anyone's interested :)
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Re: Search problem

Post by PeterJ »

Einar Saukas wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 7:53 am
Rorthron wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:33 am Yes, something like that would be better. For example, search could offer a choice of searching by publisher or by group of publishers.
Actually it should be easy to provide a "strict search" option in Advanced Searches. The implementation just need to use "publishers INNER JOIN search_by_names" instead of "search_by_publishers INNER JOIN search_by_names".

I can help with the technical details if anyone's interested :)
Thank you [mention]Einar Saukas[/mention],

I think that idea makes sense, but before making any changes I would like to gauge other opinions. I don't want to make such a big change only for a few months later someone to complain that the search is to restrictive and they can't find game Y from publisher X.
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Re: Search problem

Post by PeterJ »

Rorthron wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:33 am This is great! I also really like the compact presentation. Sorry, @PeterJ , but I'm jumping ship! :)
ZXInfo is excellent. That is the joy of [mention]Einar Saukas[/mention] making ZXDB opensource. Multiple websites and other services can use the same data but put their own spin on the layout. The two sites share images with each other and [mention]kolbeck[/mention] also contributes very many screens and other materials. Its a perfect partnership!

If you want a really compact view on search you can click 'compact' on the search results filter:

Image
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Re: Search problem

Post by StooB »

PeterJ wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 8:37 am
Einar Saukas wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 7:53 am Actually it should be easy to provide a "strict search" option in Advanced Searches. The implementation just need to use "publishers INNER JOIN search_by_names" instead of "search_by_publishers INNER JOIN search_by_names".

I can help with the technical details if anyone's interested :)
Thank you @Einar Saukas,

I think that idea makes sense, but before making any changes I would like to gauge other opinions. I don't want to make such a big change only for a few months later someone to complain that the search is to restrictive and they can't find game Y from publisher X.
Neither a broad search or a strict search is actually going to produce the "correct" result because the data in ZXDB isn't accurate enough. A strict search for "Grandslam" as publisher would only return titles published by Grandslam on its main label, ignoring titles it published on the Quicksilva, Bug Byte and Bug Byte Premier labels. A broad search goes to the other extreme by including titles like Manic Miner (1983) - which was never published by Grandslam who didn't even exist until 1987 - because they ended up as the owners of Bug Byte.

The problem is that the data on relations between labels inherited from WoS is frozen in time at some point in the 1990's. As far as ZXDB is concerned, Grandslam always owned Bug Byte and Quicksilva, EMAP always owned Crash, Titus always owned Mastertronic etc.

The only way to really solve the problem is by having joint publishers as is already the case for Pac-land which is published by Grandslam and Quicksilva. Without that, it's never going to be possible to do accurate queries such as "all titles actually published by Grandslam" or "Firebird titles published by Microprose rather than BT".
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Re: Search problem

Post by PeterJ »

The only way I can think of doing what you say is recording the start and end date for each publisher then asking the user in what time in history they want to search for, or having 1 to many relationships all over the place to display the correct information at a point in history. It almost becomes a three dimensional database model.

If you have experience of relational databases you are welcome to plan this out, collate the information, and see if Einar can incorporate it.
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Re: Search problem

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StooB wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 7:28 pm Neither a broad search or a strict search is actually going to produce the "correct" result because the data in ZXDB isn't accurate enough. A strict search for "Grandslam" as publisher would only return titles published by Grandslam on its main label, ignoring titles it published on the Quicksilva, Bug Byte and Bug Byte Premier labels. A broad search goes to the other extreme by including titles like Manic Miner (1983) - which was never published by Grandslam who didn't even exist until 1987 - because they ended up as the owners of Bug Byte.
I don't think there is actually a problem with either type of search. Both can return "correct" results. Narrow search is certainly correct, as it makes no assumptions about ownership of labels and just uses the labels titles were published under. It is never incorrect to say a Bug-Byte title is a Bug-Byte title.

Broad search as currently implemented does theoretically hit the problem you highlight about changing ownership. It could in theory be incorrect to say a Bug-Byte title is a Grandslam title. But in practice it should make little difference. It is likely Grandslam acquired the rights to Bug-Byte's back catalogue, and the same probably applies for other acquired publishers. Acquisitions of Spectrum software houses since the 90s are pretty much irrelevant. Do we really want to replace Sinclair with BSkyB or Ultimate with Microsoft?

So a narrow search is always correct in its own terms. A broad search isn't always, but it will only rarely be incorrect. It isn't really necessary to track chronological data for labels, though I understand why you might want to add it.
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Re: Search problem

Post by Einar Saukas »

PeterJ wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 7:41 pm The only way I can think of doing what you say is recording the start and end date for each publisher then asking the user in what time in history they want to search for
I don't think this would be enough. If company A was created in 1985, then acquired company B in 1987, should we display a game published by B in 1986 when searching for A?

What if B was still selling it in 1987?

I have no objections about storing dates in ZXDB to indicate when each company was bought by another. But even using this information, I don't see an efficient way to "solve" the kind of search some people expect.
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Re: Search problem

Post by PeterJ »

We will certainly need a choice [mention]Rorthron[/mention], because what's right for you may not be for others. Searching is a very personal thing. It's trying to cover all bases and not restrict the search too much.

I'm sure people are paid huge amounts to work this stuff out!
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Re: Search problem

Post by PeterJ »

Agreed [mention]Einar Saukas[/mention]. I can't start to imagine the maintenance on that sort of size database.
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Re: Search problem

Post by druellan »

I keep thinking the problem is not the search but to communicate the user what he/she is searching, and perhaps also providing some choices, like:

Image

IMO this way you not only have an idea what you're searching, but also you can immediately narrow down your query.
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Re: Search problem

Post by Einar Saukas »

Authors could also have this kind of choice.

Or perhaps a single flag to choose between "broad search mode" and "strict search mode"? This way you don't have to overload the search interface with too many options.
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Re: Search problem

Post by AndyC »

PeterJ wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 10:33 pm I'm sure people are paid huge amounts to work this stuff out!
I wish. :lol:

The narrow/strict option is certainly possible, but another solution might be to "do a Google" and instead weight the order of results somewhat. Such that everything comes out but things directly released by GrandSlam all come first and then other related publishers follow. That tends to cover both bases since you can easily crop the results of you are only interested in specifics.
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