Cannot edit older posts.

Broken link? Feature request? Anything related to the Spectrum Computing website here.
Hikaru
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Cannot edit older posts.

Post by Hikaru »

It seems like there's no way to edit older posts. For instance, I see no edit button on this one, which was posted today a few hours ago.

While I'm sure this is probably unintentional and caused by some sort of default board settings, I think it's important to not let this become a thing. As well, a major website intended to continue in the spirit of the old WoS should have no need for this whatsoever.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by R-Tape »

No I chose to set it to 2 hours, I can’t remember what the default was.

My thinking was to set a reasonable amount of time to allow correcting mistakes but not so long as to allow people to rewrite history. In my opinion this would be unfair on all other users of the forum, present and future, as it could make threads nonsensical or even totally misrepresent things.

In the case of a bit of code you want to correct I think it’s more appropriate to make a new post with that correction in. Even though I have admin rights to edit anytime I wouldn’t use them, in fact anything beyond ~half an hour I don’t.

There will be be times when there is a good reason to remove something well after the event, for example that picture I put of myself in chitchat, because it made me look like a bellend. That’s something site admins could be asked to do.

Maybe I’m missing something though, why would you want to be able to edit anytime?

I should point out I set this limit without discussing with any of the site admins (there were a thousand and one other decisions to be made), so they may disagree.

What the general consensus on this? (Don't tear me to shreds)
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by Rorthron »

This sounds good to me. Enough time to correct typos, etc, but not to rewrite history.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by Ast A. Moore »

R-Tape wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:20 pm What the general consensus on this?
I’m okay with the two-hour limbo, but I think special dispensation should be given (or at least considered) for making corrections to code snippets and—if appropriate—to the posts therein.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by Einar Saukas »

Hikaru wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:49 pmAs well, a major website intended to continue in the spirit of the old WoS should have no need for this whatsoever.
Don't you mean the opposite?

When Martijn was running old WoS, there was a time limit to edit old posts. IIRC it was originally a week, then later reduced to a day. Old posts were never allowed to be modified or deleted to "rewrite history" there until recently.

Personally I think it works better to impose a reasonable time limit on post editing. Regardless of good or bad intentions, sooner or later someone will change their mind about something they wrote, then someone else... eventually many threads may stop making any sense!
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by RMartins »

2 hours seems reasonable, but it's debatable as any other config setting.

If somehow it seems short, I'm sure there is flexibility to re-configure it, as R-Type already put it for discussion.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by Hikaru »

R-Tape wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:20 pmMaybe I’m missing something though, why would you want to be able to edit anytime?
Personally I'm missing the transition from 'people should be able to edit their own posts anytime' to 'people should not be able to edit their own posts anytime' for the most part, I suppose.

Einar Saukas wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:41 pm
Hikaru wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:49 pmAs well, a major website intended to continue in the spirit of the old WoS should have no need for this whatsoever.
Don't you mean the opposite?

When Martijn was running old WoS, there was a time limit to edit old posts. IIRC it was originally a week, then later reduced to a day. Old posts were never allowed to be modified or deleted to "rewrite history" there until recently.

Personally I think it works better to impose a reasonable time limit on post editing. Regardless of good or bad intentions, sooner or later someone will change their mind about something they wrote, then someone else... eventually many threads may stop making any sense!

One of the reasons for this thread is precisely the fact that, as far as I can remember, there weren't any sort of limits of this sort on the old WoS whatsoever. On the contrary, it wasn't until the forum imitation of the new 'WoS' that this practice really took root and became a noticeable annoyance in 'everyday life'. Certainly, there were some complain threads about this.

This is precisely one of the things that set apart the old WoS from the 'new' one as far as I'm concerned. It is petty and cowardly, and is a good indicator of the new 'WoS' administration's level of trust and regard for its users. Faced with the prospect of a good number of people removing their posts in protest, this has became their only option. There should be better examples to follow befitting a resource that has, so far, only done everything right.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by Evil Genius »

R-Tape wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:20 pm that picture I put of myself in chitchat, because it made me look like a bellend.
I thought you looked sexy. It's now my desktop wallpaper :lol:

OT: I do think a 1 or 2 hour time limit is the correct way to go.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by utz »

I'm with Hikaru on this one. Until there is an actual problem with people rewriting history, there's no good reason to put a time limit on editing one's own posts. If you are worried about clarity, then have users fill in a "reason for edit" field when they wish to edit their post after a certain amount of time.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by AndyC »

Unfortunately I've seen too many forums where it really does become a problem and useful content is lost because somebody decides to have a "flounce" or wants to make others appear harsh. If there is a really good reason to modify an older post, let the mods do it. If there is a code snippet that can particularly benefit from constant revision, stick it up on GitHub or something and make it easier to contribute fixes/improvements.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by Einar Saukas »

Hikaru wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:48 pmOne of the reasons for this thread is precisely the fact that, as far as I can remember, there weren't any sort of limits of this sort on the old WoS whatsoever. On the contrary, it wasn't until the forum imitation of the new 'WoS' that this practice really took root and became a noticeable annoyance in 'everyday life'.
I definitely remember people not being able to edit old posts at the time Martijn was still active. For instance:

https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/ ... ent_590860

I'm sure there are older examples but it's hard to find anything without proper searches.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by Nomad »

R-Tape wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:20 pm <snip>
My thinking was to set a reasonable amount of time to allow correcting mistakes but not so long as to allow people to rewrite history. In my opinion this would be unfair on all other users of the forum, present and future, as it could make threads nonsensical or even totally misrepresent things.

In the case of a bit of code you want to correct I think it’s more appropriate to make a new post with that correction in. Even though I have admin rights to edit anytime I wouldn’t use them, in fact anything beyond ~half an hour I don’t.

There will be be times when there is a good reason to remove something well after the event, for example that picture I put of myself in chitchat, because it made me look like a bellend. That’s something site admins could be asked to do.
<snip>
Rorthron wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:33 pm This sounds good to me. Enough time to correct typos, etc, but not to rewrite history.
Einar Saukas wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:41 pm Personally I think it works better to impose a reasonable time limit on post editing. Regardless of good or bad intentions, sooner or later someone will change their mind about something they wrote, then someone else... eventually many threads may stop making any sense!
Evil Genius wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:31 pm OT: I do think a 1 or 2 hour time limit is the correct way to go.
This is what I think also. There is a lot to be said about taking "ownership" of your mistakes. Often is how we fix a problem with the code or our opinion that is most useful. Being able to see how a thread developed, have that context is important to following the flow of the discussion.

If you want total control over something like a development log, you could always link to a blog and handle things that way. The only issue with this is if the hosting site goes down years later then a big chunk of information is lost, and you still have the issue that someone could throw their toys out of the pram at a later date and ruin a good discussion thread.

At some point someone will bring up 'but muh intellectual property jejeje". Again if its that much of a concern publish the relevant infos on a blog or a personal website. But I think that creates more of a burden on the poster to make sure that the data remains available for future reference. I know its not like ya'all are looking for the cure for cancer but its still infuriating to find that what appears to be the key to understanding a topic or solving a problem is a broken link to a dead website/blog.
AndyC wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:57 pm Unfortunately I've seen too many forums where it really does become a problem and useful content is lost because somebody decides to have a "flounce" or wants to make others appear harsh. If there is a really good reason to modify an older post, let the mods do it. If there is a code snippet that can particularly benefit from constant revision, stick it up on GitHub or something and make it easier to contribute fixes/improvements.
^ This is also very relevant. Even with github though you can examine the revision history.

Over time the amount of users will increase, and people are people so inevitably there will be some sort of a personality conflict/intellectual disagreement over something or other and it will result in on or more parties getting butthurt/trying to prove a point and either retroactively editing a bunch of posts to 'win' the argument in question or go the 'scorched earth' policy and remove every post they ever wrote with a suitably angry message in its place denouncing the person/website and their ancestors and berating everyone else for not seeing things the same way. That happens on all forums that allow unlimited edits - it's just a matter of time; what with human nature being what it is its an inevitable outcome.

I am sure that moderators are open to editing posts when it doesn't change the comprehension of a discussion, removal of drunken Diana Ross cosplay pics whever... or hamster milking tutorials when single life ends.. :lol:
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by stefrobb »

Nomad wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:51 am Over time the amount of users will increase, and people are people so inevitably there will be some sort of a personality conflict/intellectual disagreement over something or other and it will result in on or more parties getting butthurt/trying to prove a point and either retroactively editing a bunch of posts to 'win' the argument in question or go the 'scorched earth' policy and remove every post they ever wrote with a suitably angry message in its place denouncing the person/website and their ancestors and berating everyone else for not seeing things the same way. That happens on all forums that allow unlimited edits - it's just a matter of time; what with human nature being what it is its an inevitable outcome.
That's a very negative view of people I think, although I'd struggle to disagree with it entirely. However, until such a thing happens I think we can, or certainly should be able to, behave like adults. I'm not keen on legislating for a problem before it's evident, and especially one which is likely to be minor in both scope and impact.

If an edit limit is decided upon I'd rather see it be at least a day, if not two, with either a mandatory or voluntary code of noting when an edit has been made and the reason for it.

The fewer rules the better, I think, this isn't a school playground.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by Nomad »

stefrobb wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:25 am
That's a very negative view of people I think, although I'd struggle to disagree with it entirely.
I guess its a weltanschauung issue :lol: I don't think everyone is going to go crazy but the larger your sample size gets the more likely outliers are going to come in and spoil the party or make it awesome. People change also, one guy can be a solid dude for years then for whatever reason something changes in them and they take a different path to before. Can't really predict the future with any great accuracy. I like you hope that nobody will behave like an assclown but as you say my human nature assessment is pretty negative. :lol:

I wouldn't care, and I am all for a persons right to have their freedom of choice/action but when it has the potential to derail others understanding of an important topic then I think that is a different matter.

If everyone had unlimited post changes, you can have a situation where a guy discovers some radical new technique that changes how people code for the spectrum. Spends tens/hundreds of posts explaining the ins out outs of the technique, answering questions, giving examples. Then one day he picks up his toys and leaves, deletes everything and then you loose not only the person - but all of the posts also. And everyone suffers.

That is my worry. :D until/unless there is a shift to publishing reports/papers on topics like say Haskell/Lisp/Apl.. people do then its an Easter-egg hunt for information on blogs and forums.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by AndyC »

Also, the edits don't have to be malicious for it to become confusing. Imagine a situation in which someone posts a block of useful code, then a few subsequent posts pick out a few minor points e.g. "I think you need an additional DEC D before the LDIR". Now the OP goes back and makes those changes to the original post, but (as is likely) the subsequent posters don't go and modify their suggestions. To anyone now trying to follow the thread of conversation, it's difficult to know whether the rest of the discussion is still relevant or not; do they need to make those fixes to the code? Everyone is trying to make it easier, but in doing so muddies the waters.

Discussion threads just aren't well suited to people going "back in time" and re-writing earlier posts. Wikis/Git repositories do that much better by separating the end result from the conversation around it and by providing temporal context for comments.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by Hikaru »

Einar Saukas wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:11 am
Hikaru wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:48 pmOne of the reasons for this thread is precisely the fact that, as far as I can remember, there weren't any sort of limits of this sort on the old WoS whatsoever. On the contrary, it wasn't until the forum imitation of the new 'WoS' that this practice really took root and became a noticeable annoyance in 'everyday life'.
I definitely remember people not being able to edit old posts at the time Martijn was still active. For instance:

https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/ ... ent_590860

I'm sure there are older examples but it's hard to find anything without proper searches.

Alright, so Alessandro (the original poster) has attempted to update the head post in a thread some 7 months since its original publication. If anything, it shows that a kind of limitation is definitely in effect. And this is a good example of inconveniences brought by this sort of limitation I'd say. However, it's hard to tell anything else from it, such as: how long is the edit period? Is this just for the opening posts, or does it also affect regular posts?

In theory, I guess it's possible to think of a fairly lengthy period of time, after which an edit could be considered a kind of a necro-edit. It can be argued that no-one is reasonably going to see the result of that kind of edit in the present ... etc etc ... and personally I can maybe just about see that point. But having no limitation is orders better regardless, because it is a qualitative difference.

Nomad wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:51 am Over time the amount of users will increase, and people are people so inevitably there will be some sort of a personality conflict/intellectual disagreement over something or other and it will result in on or more parties getting butthurt/trying to prove a point and either retroactively editing a bunch of posts to 'win' the argument in question or go the 'scorched earth' policy and remove every post they ever wrote with a suitably angry message in its place denouncing the person/website and their ancestors and berating everyone else for not seeing things the same way. That happens on all forums that allow unlimited edits - it's just a matter of time; what with human nature being what it is its an inevitable outcome.

Risk is a part of the deal with laying the groundwork for trust naturally. But the reward for this is far greater, and is entirely worth it. A superior resource with a choice will naturally tend to go against, and challenge, the conventions that came to characterize the POS that is the modern internet, starting with its headline banner of 'Nobody Cares' and playing population arithmetics. - Although I do agree it's a mindset that is far too easy to get trapped in.
If there is anyone that has the privilege of that choice, it is the Spectrum Community.
If this is not what we seek, then we're essentially discussing arbitrary limitations that make little sense, vs more arbitrary limitations that make even less sense, while also apparently having to deal with deep & philosophical questions that you wouldn't normally think would arise in real life, such as 'why would you want to the ability to edit your own posts anyway'. >.>

Nomad wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:41 am If everyone had unlimited post changes, you can have a situation where a guy discovers some radical new technique that changes how people code for the spectrum. Spends tens/hundreds of posts explaining the ins out outs of the technique, answering questions, giving examples. Then one day he picks up his toys and leaves, deletes everything and then you loose not only the person - but all of the posts also. And everyone suffers.

Nah, that's science fiction. In practice, 2-3 people are able to fully appreciate what happened, one guy falls into denial, the rest are busy playing Manic Miner. God's in his heaven, all's right with the world, the person in question has of course known this in advance before s/he even started to work on the technique some years prior. - Couldn't decide if this counts as a plot twi- pfft, of course not. No one suffers. c:
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by hikoki »

you won't time limitation on zxuno and speccy.org forums, works fine so long a people behave themselves and don't break the history of discussions, that is just for typos, update links, rewording to make things clearer..
Last edited by hikoki on Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by utz »

AndyC wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:25 am Also, the edits don't have to be malicious for it to become confusing. Imagine a situation in which someone posts a block of useful code, then a few subsequent posts pick out a few minor points e.g. "I think you need an additional DEC D before the LDIR". Now the OP goes back and makes those changes to the original post, but (as is likely) the subsequent posters don't go and modify their suggestions. To anyone now trying to follow the thread of conversation, it's difficult to know whether the rest of the discussion is still relevant or not; do they need to make those fixes to the code? Everyone is trying to make it easier, but in doing so muddies the waters.
Image someone posting a snippet of code that solves a certain problem, then later through discussion someone finds an error or possible optimization in the code. After some weeks, everybody who searches the forum for a solution to this problem will start off by using the faulty/unoptimal code, because nobody is going to dig through 5 pages of thread to see if there were corrections/improvements. For sake of clarity, that kind of stuff needs to be edited in the OP.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by Nomad »

Why not have a wiki with the useful techniques, subroutines, links to books, articles, videos, programs. That way it could be updated and organized in a logical fashion.

Can always refer people to the wiki then if there is a repeat question asked on the forum. people could go back to the forum for clarification if its not clear.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by 4thRock »

No logic in editing generic posts after a few hours really. You can always post again, no problem there.

What's missing is the ability to edit the first post of a thread you started.
For example to have a single download link on the first post and keep it updated.
As far as I know you can't do that, or at least there's no obvious edit button.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by utz »

4thRock wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:54 am What's missing is the ability to edit the first post of a thread you started.
Good point. Being able to edit the OP indefinately but not the rest would be a compromise I could live with.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by Morkin »

Yeah, that's the only thing that used to annoy me a bit, where the first post links aren't working anymore but there's an alternative.

Hopefully as long as Einar's magic database is being updated it's less of an issue for Speccy software, but things do occasionally stop working as they should (<cough>Dropbox, Photobucket).

I guess the admin can edit posts on request from the poster..?
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by HexTank »

Ast A. Moore wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:40 pm
R-Tape wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:20 pm What the general consensus on this?
I’m okay with the two-hour limbo, but I think special dispensation should be given (or at least considered) for making corrections to code snippets and—if appropriate—to the posts therein.
Why can't you just add another post with fixes? Or just link to a blog post with code snippets if the desire is there to maybe change in future?


I'm not against people modifying posts, but the original content needs to be intact, a bit like when you change the description on an eBay listing after someone has put a bid on, so, it becomes an addition rather than a modify.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by Ast A. Moore »

HexTank wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:09 pm I'm not against people modifying posts, but the original content needs to be intact, a bit like when you change the description on an eBay listing after someone has put a bid on, so, it becomes an addition rather than a modify.
That’s why I add the proviso of a “special dispensation” issued by an admin. Someone has to decide what amount of change is appropriate—a typo, an outdated/defunct link, etc.
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Re: Cannot edit older posts.

Post by RMartins »

Let's be pratical, no matter what our own specific solution that might be agreed up-on, we have to also consider that if the Forum software does not support it, someone needs to develop it, and it's not always easy to "patch" something like this in.

Maybe we should look first at what options the existing software allows, and see if there is any setting that might be more consensual.

Anything else, will need further development.

For example:
Having some sort of history on each post message, so that previous versions could always be consulted (using some special link/button).
Eventually a user could mark/request old versions of a message to be deleted, and if an Admin agrees, it could be removed, to save space.

NOTE: I edited this 3 times already :)
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