Moderator Action

Broken link? Feature request? Anything related to the Spectrum Computing website here.
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Pegaz
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Pegaz »

I think it may be better to limit or rename this section to non Spectrum COMPUTER ONLY related topics.
Einar was right in some sense, but for me things are clear.
I didnt come to this forum, to find out "What's on your saucer?", "What's everyone drinking?", etc.
If I wanted something like that, I would stay on wos.
Maybe the moderators were wrong in this particular case, maybe they only reacted to a cheap provocation, from experienced wos chitchater, I dont know...
What I know is that the SC should not get into the same mud as wos, where many Spectrum themes are polluted or disguised because of a dozen chitchat trolls.
Perhaps there may be a compromise on such off topic content, but as far as I'm concerned, even if you remove this section completely, I will not miss it too much.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Mike Davies »

I note that the moderators repeatedly attempted to contain and de-escalate matters in private, and those advances didn't seem to result in the recipient taking a step back, or to show good faith towards resolving the matter. If one party refuses to de-escalate, there's very little that can be constructively done. So it's worth appreciating the efforts the moderators took in trying to resolve this peacefully.

Freedom of speech is the allowance to say what you want, but not with taking advantage of someone else's resources without their permission and at their expense. "Not in my garden" isn't a limitation of free speech, that person can go elsewhere and have his say, his freedom of speech hasn't been curtailed. He has availed himself of that opportunity.

This forum has flourished in it's first few months with a very light moderator touch. Most of that is to do with participants' self-moderation, which I hope is an effort to create a community we are missing (or lost) before this forum launched. It's a credit to every participating member here. Even the WoS thread hasn't blown up noticeably, which is an indication there's a desire to move on and be part of something positive and constructive.

In terms of Spectrum relevance of the original piece, it's down to a misunderstanding of the original poster. He is upset that a Spectrum emulator runs a confirmed opt-in mailing list (probably a mailing list for update notifications, for example), which suggests to him that he add their email address to his contact list or address book. This is a standard internet marketing request: in that spam filters are over-zealous, and having an email address on your contact list in online mail services (e.g. Gmail, Hotmail) is a positive signal that the sender is legit. However, the poster is under the impression that the request is for the emulator author to have access to his contact list, and he is understandably upset at such a request. Except, that wasn't the request at all, the request was to add their email address to his contact list.

Anyways, the original poster does need to calm down and take a step back. Which is why I agree with Ralf's suggestion of a temporary ban -- a cooling off period.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by utz »

I'm mostly with Einar on this one, though for slightly different reasons (which I would rather discuss in private, though).

However, [mention]Pegaz[/mention], you make an interesting point. It's indeed one of the major nuisances of wos that useless and Spectrum-unrelated drivel has taken overhand there. However, I believe that isn't because these type of discussions are allowed there, but rather because under the new management, a lot of folks with a serious interest in Spectrum were driven away, either through personal insults from the moderation, or by being censorsed on a range of very much Spectrum-related topics.

The "what's on your saucer" style discussions were always there (and mind you, that particular one was inspired by one of the most dearly remembered Spectrum developers so in a way posting in there means paying some digital respects), but for many years they were not a problem. And I don't see them becoming a problem here any time soon. Once that happens, it might be a good idea to limit the /offtopic board to computer related topics. But I don't think there are good enough reasons to act proactively on this. A little chitchat is part of the fun and helps create a positive overall atmosphere. And occasional outbursts by certain people, while being somewhat irritating, aren't really enough to bring the ship down, imo.

That said, I think it's great that we're having an actual discussion about this, and that the mods are being so open and transparent about it.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by PeteProdge »

I see the phrase "freedom of speech" has been brought up.

As a member of many web forums, and an administrator of a couple of them, I'd like to point out that the person or people who have set up a forum and run it, really should have the ultimate say as to what and who posts in their digital space. Those paying the server bill, ultimately, need to be respected.

"Freedom of speech" isn't exactly denied if you're banned here. Nobody should have the automatic right to say what they want on a website they don't even own or contribute to. I'd like to say "Ed Sheeran sucks" in huge flashing letters on Heart Radio's website, but I doubt they'd let me.

Right now there are more possibilities than ever to publish on the web at little or no cost.

My real world analogy is this. You can stand out on a pavement holding a banner saying whatever you like - "TRUMP IS GREAT"; "#METOO HAS GONE TOO FAR" or even, to be controversial, "C64 IS THE BEST" - but the second you walk into my house bellowing such opinions, I have the right to throw you out.
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Ast A. Moore
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Ast A. Moore »

Pegaz wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:45 am I didnt come to this forum, to find out "What's on your saucer?", "What's everyone drinking?", etc.
If I wanted something like that, I would stay on wos.
You’re not obligated to read such threads. I didn’t come to this forum to read about The Last Jedi, the Amiga, C64, Amstrad CPC, Atari, Xbox, PC games, or Christmas radio highlights, either. In fact, I find them more off-putting that any of C.Born’s rants. Talk about being a “Spectrum-focused” forum. I, however, can, and do, ignore these topics. I would have, even if they hadn’t been in the Off Topic section.

I couldn’t agree more with Einar. This action on the part of the moderators was an exercise in wielding power rather than an attempt at meting out justice or, in fact, moderating. We’re all adults here. We can deal with heated debates without intervention, for the most part.

As for the forum guidelines, all the “do not post offensive or inappropriate material on the forum or via PM,” and “play nice” wording translates to “it’s my way or the highway.” There’s no objective measurement of what is offensive or inappropriate. Judging from what’s happening in the world these days, people take offense at anything: jokes, clothing, hair styles, tweets, other people’s ideas.

Ironically, intentionally or not, the action of the moderators inadvertently made C.Born’s point, except that instead of spending a night in jail, he was “given life.” I’m sorry, but from where I’m standing, the moderators actually escalated the matter and provoked C.Born unnecessarily.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Rorthron »

Einar Saukas wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:32 am This was a moderation screw up.
I was the moderator who deleted the posts and suspended C.Born. I believe mistakes have been made, but not in the deletion of posts or the suspension.
Einar Saukas wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:32 amHe posted an off-topic rant, under the off-topic section of this forum. So what's the big deal? Admittedly he went over the top
Did you read C.Born's original post on Wednesday?

I you did, then I will reiterate that I consider the post's content entirely unacceptable and in breach of the forum rules and disagree with you. If you did not read the original post, I am afraid your comment is entirely baseless.

Several people have assumed in this thread that the posts C.Born made here were the same as the ones he has made on WoS. They were not. There were similarities, but do not presume that if you have read the WoS read, you have read the posts made here.
Einar Saukas wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:32 am But let's put into perspective that he's taking this issue far enough to spend a night in jail over defending what he sees as his civil rights
How is this relevant? If I am sentenced to life imprisonment for murder, does that somehow make the murder more worth while?

(I am, of course, not suggesting C.Born's case is anything like murder. I am just trying to point out the irrelevance of the argument.)
Einar Saukas wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:32 amAlso I don't agree with his reasoning, but that's irrelevant. If it was a rant about a different, more unanimous concern such as an outrage over massacres in Syria, would it make any difference? Really, if you only concur with freedom of speech when others are expressing the same opinion as yours, then you don't actually believe in freedom of speech.
C.Born's posts were not deleted because I disagreed with them. It was not entirely clear to me what his concern was in the original post, so I could not express an opinion either way. If his views had been clearer, quite possibly I could have agreed with some of his thoughts. That would not have changed the moderating decision.

Your argument on freedom of speech is wholly flawed. [mention]Mike Davies[/mention] has already made the key points, so I won't repeat them here.
Einar Saukas wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:32 amSo why did moderation considered it necessary to interfere and censor his post? What guideline rules did he break exactly?
Please read my earlier comments, where I answered this.
Einar Saukas wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:32 amThe closest he got to breaking an existing guideline was not "playing nice" and not "setting a positive tone". So he was ultimately banned because he didn't accept censorship for not being "positive". Really?
No.

First of all, he broke two forum rules (see above).

Second, I will try not to be goaded by your comment, but it really is utter nonsense. "Not nice" encompasses a range of things including grossly offensive. If a post were deleted for being grossly offensive, that would come under the "play nice" rule. You can try to turn it around and say it was ridiculous to remove a grossly offensive post just because it wasn't nice, but that misses the point that it was actually removed for being much worse than "not nice".

Finally, I would like to clarify that C.Born has not been permanently banned. The moderators have had to spend so much time dealing with the forum's response that they have not yet been able to decide on the length of the ban. I imposed the ban initially to allow cooling off, with the intention that the mods would then collectively decide on a course of action. Unfortunately the subject became a matter of speculation on the forum. I cannot tell you how difficult uninformed speculation has made the moderators' job in this case.
Einar Saukas wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:32 am He posted something similar at WoS forum. The WoS moderators didn't intervene, some users mocked the issue but others engaged in a comprehensive discussion about online privacy (that's a worthwhile subject after all). He had a chance to blow some steam, there was no harm done.
The WoS thread is appalling. It's like bear-baiting.

I honestly would not want to be member of a forum that allowed that.
Einar Saukas wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:32 amMost people migrated to this forum expecting a more humane and comprehensive moderation policy, where unfair bans would never happen. However, in this particular case, moderators adopted a zero-tolerance "Internet police" approach, instead of taking context into account and then "letting it slide" like WoS moderators did. Good moderation is supposed to look after users and interfere only when strictly necessary, to prevent conflicts from happening. As opposed to acting heavy handed on users on uncomfortable situations (thus causing conflicts themselves).
I agree that "Good moderation is supposed to look after users and interfere only when strictly necessary". That is the policy I adopted here.
Einar Saukas wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:32 amDespite all this, I do believe moderators here are doing their best. They all have good intentions, and they sacrifice their time on a difficult and tiresome task every day. I also understand the extenuating circumstances (he blew up after getting censored thus making it harder to deal with the situation). And finally I appreciate the willingness from moderators to openly discuss it.
Thanks for this. I would like to say, though, that I will no longer be sacrificing my time to do this. I have informed the rest of the team that I will stand down as moderator with immediate effect. The aftermath of this incident has taken a quite enormous amount of my time. I simply do not have the time (or inclination after your response) to carry on.

I believe my actions were careful and correct. You are entitled to disagree.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Rorthron »

Ast A. Moore wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:03 am This action on the part of the moderators was an exercise in wielding power
It really wasn't. As I explained above, I am relieved to say I will no longer have to "wield that power".
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by utz »

No, no, no. I don't think calling out the mod team on stifling free speech, exercising their wielded power etc. is fair. Until proven differently, I remain completely convinced that this decision was born out of inexperience and a genuine desire to "keep things nice" around. I do think it was the wrong decision, though.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Ast A. Moore »

PeteProdge wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:02 am the second you walk into my house bellowing such opinions, I have the right to throw you out.
You do have that right, absolutely, but consider this:

1. A forum as a place for an exchange of ideas. That’s its sole purpose. It’s not your house.
2. If you apply the “my way or the highway” rule to a forum, it’ll soon turn into a pretty lonely place or an echo chamber. In either case, it won’t be a forum any more.
3. This policy is divisive and isolationist by definition, so, again, see #2.

Other than that, sure, you “have the right” to do as you please.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Rorthron »

One other point. I would as ask (not as a moderator) that people are really careful and considered in what they write here. Very few of you are aware how close this site is to closing down.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by MonkZy »

It seem as if Chris is rather paranoid. In today's world of constant digital surveillance (mostly benign data-mining) things will get tough for people of this disposition. The feeling of being 'watched' and 'controlled' will be enhanced. I hope he is OK.

Uncle Bill says:

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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Ralf »

I didnt come to this forum, to find out "What's on your saucer?", "What's everyone drinking?", etc.
Yes, there is a problem with these threads.
Okay, they were forever. Almost forever. Being an old wosser I remember that chitchat forum was introduced around 2006 or so.

But it wasn't a problem. You didn't want to see discussion in chitchat, you didn't enter there.

At some moment Lee changed forum engine to this Vanilla engine, really bad and ugly if you ask me. Now there is a list on the right with latest posts which wasn't before. And these posts are 80% chitchat. You can't avoid seeing them.

When you see these guys talking about food, driniking and celebrity deaths you lose motivation to post about Spectrum. That's exactly what I was feeling.

I suppose it's all about finding a golden mean. Good forum cannot become an opressive place where saying something not related to forum main topic is immediately punished. But allow to much raving, babbling and talking crap and it will become to kill the forum. As seen.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by PeterJ »

[mention]Ast A. Moore[/mention] I would add to your footer that Every Man should try moderation of a forum.

I hope you are pleased with the outcome.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Ast A. Moore »

PeterJ wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:30 am @Ast A. Moore I would add to your footer that Every Man should try moderation of a forum.

I hope you are pleased with the outcome.
Ha, good one, Peter! Yeah, we all have to deal with that task at some point in our lives. That’s what this thread is essentially about, isn’t it?
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and zasm Z80 Assembler syntax highlighter.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by PeterJ »

It is very sad that this discussion has resulted in [mention]Rorthron[/mention] leaving his admin role. I support every step and action that he took. 100%.

I have made a decision:

We will tighten up the forum rules.
The ban will be changed to 2 weeks.
A repeat of his message style will result in permanent ban with no option back.
We will consider the future of off-topic

If this is not enough for people then other forums are available.

Peter
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by PeteProdge »

Ast A. Moore wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:22 am
PeteProdge wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:02 am the second you walk into my house bellowing such opinions, I have the right to throw you out.
You do have that right, absolutely, but consider this:

1. A forum as a place for an exchange of ideas. That’s its sole purpose. It’s not your house.
2. If you apply the “my way or the highway” rule to a forum, it’ll soon turn into a pretty lonely place or an echo chamber. In either case, it won’t be a forum any more.
3. This policy is divisive and isolationist by definition, so, again, see #2.

Other than that, sure, you “have the right” to do as you please.
Oh yes, those are valid points and overly zealous moderation will certainly have #2 happen. I've seen that going on over the years.

But still, there has to be a dividing line and yes, there will always be shades of grey. It's a fine balancing act, but when you come to a ZX Spectrum forum, you expect it to at least be relevant most of the time. Political arguments can derail forums and newsgroups. I think SpectrumComputing has got it right.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Mike Davies »

Rorthron wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:15 am Several people have assumed in this thread that the posts C.Born made here were the same as the ones he has made on WoS. They were not. There were similarities, but do not presume that if you have read the WoS read, you have read the posts made here.
I did not see the post in question, so I'm guilty as charged. I have no reason to doubt you made the right call for the right reasons. I'm sorry you have been pushed to the point of stepping down on what looks like a well-intentioned and justifiable action. Moderation, when done well, is an invisible and thankless task, so may I at least say thank you, [mention]Rorthron[/mention] for your investment of time and effort.
Ast A. Moore wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:22 am 1. A forum as a place for an exchange of ideas. That’s its sole purpose. It’s not your house.
2. If you apply the “my way or the highway” rule to a forum, it’ll soon turn into a pretty lonely place or an echo chamber. In either case, it won’t be a forum any more.
3. This policy is divisive and isolationist by definition, so, again, see #2.
The forum is provided without charge on a system that's being paid for out of someone's own pocket, with someone's own investment of time. That does give that person, and those he nominates/delegates, as having absolute say as to what behaviour is allowed or not in his space, it's very much his "house" as the final judge as to what is and isn't appropriate.

If his definition of what is or isn't acceptable is incompatible with that of the community around the forum, then that does indeed lead to a lonely place or echo chamber. But I don't believe that is the case here, very much the opposite. Moreover the "anything goes" rule can be just as much a turn-off.

Much like any form of community building, we encourage the behaviour we want, and discourage the behaviour we don't. You're seeing examples of behaviours in the other forum that are a disincentive. Sometimes excluding the lesser quality stuff means the higher quality stuff is more visible. Forums need gardening and tendering, just as much as wikis -- heck, any space that allows unfiltered contributions from others needs gardening.

And the transparency and openness of the admin team is a good example for others to take note of. And where contributors don't necessarily see eye-to-eye doesn't diminish either.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by 4thRock »

I'd like to give my support to the Moderators and site Administrators.

Let's not invert blame. The user started the problem, and the mods had to act.
This is normal on all forums, and I'm sure will happen again.

Of course, people will always disagree about specific penalties (post deletion, ban, locked thread), but that's a different issue.

Action had to be taken and that's a good thing.
Moderators exist to take action, let's not blame people for doing their "job".
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by utz »

PeterJ wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:50 am It is very sad that this discussion has resulted in @Rorthron leaving his admin role. I support every step and action that he took. 100%.

I have made a decision:

We will tighten up the forum rules.
The ban will be changed to 2 weeks.
A repeat of his message style will result in permanent ban with no option back.
We will consider the future of off-topic

If this is not enough for people then other forums are available.

Peter
I disagree with the permaban thing. He just has these outbursts once in a while, it's not something he can really "control". Ultimately they aren't a major problem though. Lock the thread, dish out a cool-off ban if necessary, but a perma-ban isn't needed imo.
Other than that, I think this is the right course of action to take and I support this decision. Also, indeed very sad to have Rorthron leave, I hope that perhaps after some time to recover from the incident, he'll be back.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Pegaz »

Ast A. Moore wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:03 amI couldn’t agree more with Einar. This action on the part of the moderators was an exercise in wielding power rather than an attempt at meting out justice or, in fact, moderating. We’re all adults here. We can deal with heated debates without intervention, for the most part
Yes, we are all adults here, but this "discussion" has nothing to do with the behavior of adult people.
It looks more like an act of spoiled child, who hasnt yet realized how real life works.
If this kind of discussion is more relevant to you, than any other non Spectrum computer theme, thats fine.
One thing I know, SC moderators have always been tolerant and transparent, unlike the leadership of the forum we all know.
Perhaps they could have managed this situation better, maybe they paid tribute to inexperience, but I'm glad they didnt allow wos chitchat anarchy here.
Instead of complaining about moderator action, it may be time for some Alice from Wanderland to take the red pill and find out how deep the rabbit hole goes...
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Ast A. Moore »

Pegaz wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:14 am but this "discussion" has nothing to do with the behavior of adult people.
A discussion like any other discussion on a topic that is slightly more serious than “Two or three lumps of sugar in your teat?” I don’t see why so many people get their panties in a bunch about it. He makes a point (with whatever limited command of the English language he has), and others either engage in an argument, or make jokes about him or the subject matter. Nothing wrong with that. The most important thing is there are no parents to spank the misbehaving children or to ground them. The thread is pretty much self-moderating.
Mike Davies wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:54 am And the transparency and openness of the admin team is a good example for others to take note of.
Hypothetically, yes, Mike, but I have yet to see the transparency or openness that has been mentioned several times in this thread. We all—aside from those privy to the “offending” post, obviously—can only speculate about its contents.

Anyway, Peter has made his stance clear on this. I don’t see much point in discussing this further. My takeaway on the whole issue and the way it was handled can be summarized as follows:

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz9810Y7ZRw[/media]
Every man should plant a tree, build a house, and write a ZX Spectrum game.

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Re: Moderator Action

Post by PeterJ »

[mention]Ast A. Moore[/mention] If you are really that keen on seeing his message, I'm happy to show it you. You would need to contact Chris though and check in light of everything he is OK for me to show it you. Then send a PM to me.

That is about as open as you get. Don't forget ZXDB is open and free as is the forum software. There is no issue in the slightest with you setting up your own site and managing it as you wish. We can share our code with you.

You are also welcome to join the forum admin and see how things go. The challenge is reaching a decision that all or the majority of the admin are happy with. I'm not apologising for the decisions we made. The majority of the admin team agreed with them.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Ast A. Moore »

PeterJ wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:43 am If you are really that keen on seeing his message, I'm happy to show it you. You would need to contact Chris though and check in light of everything he is OK for me to show it you. Then send a PM to me.
I was referring to the original forum post that was deemed inappropriate and then deleted, not the private exchange that took place afterward. The latter, I’m not that interested in seeing.
PeterJ wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:43 amThat is about as open as you get. Don't forget ZXDB is open and free as is the forum software. There is no issue in the slightest with you setting up your own site and managing it as you wish. We can share our code with you.
No need to get defensive, Peter. I wasn’t attacking you personally or SC in general. The thread is called Moderator Action and I am discussing it. At no point did I try to undermine or criticize ZXDB, nor did I play the “build my own theme park” card.
PeterJ wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:43 amYou are also welcome to join the forum admin and see how things go. The challenge is reaching a decision that all or the majority of the admin are happy with. I'm not apologising for the decisions we made. The majority of the admin team agreed with them.
Thanks! I might take you up on that at some point. (Then again, do you really need an attack helicopter on your team?)
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Pegaz »

Much more than this controversial discussion, I am bothered by double standards and some attempts to put equality between wos and SC moderation.
One wos chitchater is banned and the whole revolution is rising, but I didnt notice those voices of the righteous, when recently another long-time wos member was permanently banned.
After so many years, only a small avatar "User banned, carry on" remained.
No, gentlemen, we are not the same...
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Hikaru »

Pegaz wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:44 am Much more than this controversial discussion, I am bothered by double standards and some attempts to put equality between wos and SC moderation.
One wos chitchater is banned and the whole revolution is rising, but I didnt notice those voices of the righteous, when recently another long-time wos member was permanently banned.
After so many years, only a small avatar "User banned, carry on" remained.
No, gentlemen, we are not the same...
Eh, it's getting there from what I can see. Plenty of subtle (and not so) pointing at the door even ITT already. Got one in a PM yesterday too despite hardly even posting these days lul

OT, is it because most of those people moved to /sc/ perhaps? Idk who did they ban this time, but surely it should be common knowledge by now that the /wos/ moderation is absolutely inadequate
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