Moderator Action

Broken link? Feature request? Anything related to the Spectrum Computing website here.
hikoki
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by hikoki »

Hikaru wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:08 pm Ahah, okay, you got me. We're actually the same person. :c
(I only think it's important in the sense of who-did-what this time, other than that Idm of course)
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Ralf »

Looks like they lost patience on WOS and closed his thread.
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PeterJ
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by PeterJ »

Ralf wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:04 pm Looks like they lost patience on WOS and closed his thread.
I noticed that too.
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Pegaz
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Pegaz »

Ralf wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:04 pm Looks like they lost patience on WOS and closed his thread.
But, why? A discussion like any other discussion...
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Sokurah »

Pegaz wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:41 pm
Ralf wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:04 pm Looks like they lost patience on WOS and closed his thread.
But, why? A discussion like any other discussion...
No, it wasn't a discussion like any other discussion. It was mostly mud slinging and not ever going anywhere. Locking threads are always unfortunate ... but no good or constructive things was going to come of this one. It's not a big loss. I'd admire a place that doesn't need policing, but every once in a while a person like Crisis/C.Born comes along and stirs things up ... and sometimes locking a thread is just needed to help get things back on track.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Pegaz »

I was just ironic. ;)
Otherwise, I completely agree with you.
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Einar Saukas
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Einar Saukas »

utz wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:20 amNo, no, no. I don't think calling out the mod team on stifling free speech, exercising their wielded power etc. is fair. Until proven differently, I remain completely convinced that this decision was born out of inexperience and a genuine desire to "keep things nice" around. I do think it was the wrong decision, though.
Absolutely.

I disagree with moderation judgement on the best course of action in this particular issue. However it's quite obvious there was no malice or abuse of power here. On the contrary! All moderators have been very transparent on reporting everything, patiently discussing it, opening their actions for scrutiny, even making clear they never expect to be trusted blindly. Despite disagreements, the way all moderators handled everything made me respect them even more.

Moreover, their comments here indicate they gave this incident a lot of thought and importance. It means their hearts are in the right place! :)
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Einar Saukas
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Einar Saukas »

PeterJ wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:22 pmYou are right, this is not a good start.
I'm still convinced it was a moderation mistake, but frankly I never expected moderation (or anybody else) to be perfect. Mistakes and problems can always happen. How people deal with them makes all the difference. And we may never reach a consensus here on this particular case. Even so, the simple fact that the first really complicated issue at Spectrum Computing could be discussed openly and freely, in a civilized way here, means it was a great start. I'm proud to be part of this forum.

PeterJ wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:11 amI have read through the WoS thread and most of the posts seem to be openly mocking him. This is not positive or helpful.
Mocking and diverting subjects is part of WoS humor and culture. Perhaps it shouldn't, but anyway it wasn't much different than many other threads there. Even so, I'm sure he's feeling much better about WoS that gave him the chance to express himself, and very upset about Spectrum Computing that censored it. Also a couple people were annoyed but I doubt anybody considered it offensive.

There's certainly no perfect solution here. My point is just that censorship was probably even less positive and helpful.

PeterJ wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:11 amWe are looking at the Off-Topic area and reviewing the future for it (including maybe renaming it).
I think that's a good idea.

PeterJ wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:11 amWe are trying to be different from the other place.
You already got that!
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Einar Saukas
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Einar Saukas »

PeteProdge wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:02 amMy real world analogy is this. You can stand out on a pavement holding a banner saying whatever you like - "TRUMP IS GREAT"; "#METOO HAS GONE TOO FAR" or even, to be controversial, "C64 IS THE BEST" - but the second you walk into my house bellowing such opinions, I have the right to throw you out.
However he didn't come uninvited. A better analogy is, you placed a soapbox in your backyard and invited all neighbours to freely speak their minds about any off-topic subject, and long as they didn't offend each other. Then one of your invited neighbours steps into the soapbox to present an inflamed political speech and you think "Ops, that's not what I expected". Should you throw him out, or allow it but change the rules to prevent it from happening again? I think that's basically the issue here.

Personally I like the idea of replacing the "Off Topic" section with something like "Other Retro Topics". There would be still room for a wide variety of subjects like old TV series or Atari games, but not for completely unrelated and/or controversial discussions that are apparently unwanted here. Also many people seem to be concerned about chit-chat outgrowing Spectrum discussions like somewhere else, this change would solve that problem too. In practice we would probably just loose dinner pictures, but Facebook is a more appropriate place for them anyway.

I would be more comfortable on a forum focused on Spectrum and other somewhat related subjects only, instead of a forum with "gray areas" that is open to all kinds of discussions but subjected to censorship analysis on each case.
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Mike Davies
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Mike Davies »

Einar Saukas wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:44 pm Personally I like the idea of replacing the "Off Topic" section with something like "Other Retro Topics". There would be still room for a wide variety of subjects like old TV series or Atari games, but not for completely unrelated and/or controversial discussions that are apparently unwanted here.
That's a great suggestion, I like it!
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by R-Tape »

I have to admit the idea of trying to moderate a pure Off Topic forum, especially after this week, brings me out in cold sweats.

Changing it is something we've been discussing, now it's been raised it'd be interesting to hear what people would prefer.

Binning it entirely could result in lots of non Speccy things in Miscellaneous (and unpopular decisions when they are removed for being out of place), that's why Chitchat was created on WoS. So it seems some kind of repository for 'not quite Speccy' is needed.

Looking at Off Topic now, the good news is that almost all of it can be kept. Things like "Merry Christmas" can be move to Website, and all but a couple can be kept as retro something or other.

One suggestion was Retrocomputing. I liked that but it does exclude a lot of general computing and modern gaming that fits well here. Can anyone think of a way to include that?

Einar's suggestion of "Other Retro stuff" allowed even more scope.

Still no modern computers or gaming though. Is there a way of fitting that in too? Do we want that in?

Any more thoughts on this? How "not quite Speccy" do we want to get?
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Spud »

Einar's suggestion of "Other Retro stuff" allowed even more scope.
Maybe this but it is hard to say for sure. I don’t look at individual forums per se, I just look at the thing at the top and cycle through the recently updated threads and read or reply to stuff that takes my interest there.

I wouldn’t be able to post about the new guitar i bought recently if we only allowed retro stuff but then there isn’t much chance i’d create a thread about it if it was as allowed anyway! It seems a shame to remove or change a section that may be beloved by some members.

To summarise: no idea.
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Einar Saukas
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Einar Saukas »

Perhaps "Other Retro or Computer-related Topics"? What do people think?

Whatever we choose, let's make sure the scope is clear and easily understood, otherwise this change won't solve anything.
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Rorthron
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Rorthron »

Einar Saukas wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:44 pm A better analogy is, you placed a soapbox in your backyard and invite all neighbours to freely speak their minds about any off-topic subject, and long as they didn't offend each other. Then one of your invite neighbours steps into the soapbox to present an inflamed political speech and you think "Ops, that's not what I expected". Should you throw him out, or allow it but change the rules to prevent it from happening again? I think that's basically the issue here.
This is not correct. A more accurate analogy would be:

You host a ZX Spectrum party in your back yard and invited all your neighbours on the conditions that they behave nicely and discuss only subjects you consider appropriate. (Read the forum rules.) Then one of your invited neighbours starts screaming and calling people Nazis. You politely ask your guest three times not to speak about this, but your guest becomes abusive, refuses to comply with your requests, insists he should be allowed to shout about high-school shootings, refugees, "real" Nazis, etc and starts screaming again. So you decide to throw the person out at least until they calm down.

That's quite a different situation.

(Incidentally, I specifically considered the soap box analogy in reaching the decision I took.)

Not a moderator and not speaking for the moderator team.
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Rorthron
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Rorthron »

I would like to make one other point.

Several people in this thread have voiced strong opinions about circumstances where they actually have no knowledge. For example:

- Some have defended the content of the deleted posts, when they haven't even seen those posts.
- The mods have been accused of being heavy handed by people who have presumably never seen any of the communications with C.Born.
- Actions have been described as knee-jerk by people who have never seen the communication among the mods that considered the issue at great length.
- People have criticised the imposition of a permanent ban, even though the moderator team never said the ban was permanent. No decision had been reached on the length of the ban at that time.
- ‎People have accused me of being on a power trip, when quite obviously they cannot possibly read my mind and know my intentions.

There are many more examples, but I think these are enough to make the point.

I think it would help the moderators do their job and make the forum a better place if in future people are more circumspect. It's not just the mods who need to learn from this episode. Before any of you start describing events as "screw-ups" or suchlike, please make sure you pay as much attention to the information that you don't know as that which you do.

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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Hikaru »

Some have defended the content of the deleted posts, when they haven't even seen those posts.
Remember kids, make sure to always read a deleted post before you attempt to defend it.
No decision had been reached on the length of the ban at that time.
That makes it a ban of indefinite length.
Before any of you start describing events as "screw-ups" or suchlike, please make sure you pay as much attention to the information that you don't know as that which you do.
For convenience's sake, I will try to present the important bits of information that we know about this screw-up below during the next 2 hours.

1. A regular and known member was banned indefinitely for stating that 'Someone somewhere is a Nazi'.
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Rorthron
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Rorthron »

Hikaru wrote: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:16 am Make sure to always read a deleted post before you attempt to defend it.
Yes! If you haven't read the post, you have a very limited view of what it is about.
Hikaru wrote: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:16 am That makes it a ban of indefinite length.
Yes, not a permanent one. The mods were discussing different possible ban lengths.
Hikaru wrote: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:16 am For convenience's sake, I will try to present the important bits of information that we know about this screw-up below during the next 2 hours.

1. A regular and known member was banned indefinitely for stating that 'Someone somewhere is a Nazi'.
No. Please see the explanation I have already supplied.

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Re: Moderator Action

Post by hikoki »

hikoki wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:13 pm This thread will be locked for a two weeks cooling-off period.

We are also proud to announce that Rorthron will be the artist and level designer of a new game coded by C. Born.
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Rorthron
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by Rorthron »

Hikoki and Hikaru. This is going to get confusing... :)
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by R-Tape »

Einar Saukas wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:29 pm Perhaps "Other Retro or Computer-related Topics"? What do people think?

Whatever we choose, let's make sure the scope is clear and easily understood, otherwise this change won't solve anything.
We'll need to have a chat and decide what we're most comfortable with, but it'd be interesting to hear more views on this.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by hikoki »

hikoki wrote: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:50 am
hikoki wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:13 pm This thread will be locked for a two weeks cooling-off period.

We are also proud to announce that Rorthron will be the artist and level designer of a new game coded by C. Born.
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by 1024MAK »

Okay, I have been watching this for a while now.

Rorthron a couple of posts above makes some very relevant points.

And here in this place, some members have been second guessing things, just like they did over on WoS forums.

In general, most administrators and moderators don't do the role for reasons of power. There is no money in it. There is no status in it. They do it because someone has to do it to keep the forum from becoming a Wild West of the internet, full of spammers and various people having rants that have nothing to do with the reason that the forum was created. Or worse...

The work of administrators and moderators can vary wildly. They much prefer when they don't have to do any moderation. Keeping track of topics and threads where things may be about to kick off, or editing and moderating posts and threads where members have broken the rules or guidelines can be challenging. It often causes the administrator or moderator to have to decide which side of a moral dilemma to take. It can be very time consuming.

I have no more information than anyone else who has read this thread. But going on the information here, I believe the administrators and moderators made the correct decision. There are many other forums aimed at 1980s and 1990s computer enthusiasts that would have done the same, or a very similar thing.

In comparison, most (but maybe not all) of the moderation on WoS forums is very light in comparison.

On the subject of off-topic type areas, well one aim of having an off topic area, is to try to help to keep the main subject areas clear of off-topic items. Then if a member wants, they can stay clear of all (well, most of) the off-topic threads and posts.

If there is no off topic area, at some stage, someone will post off topic material elsewhere on the forums. This will then continue to happen at random intervals by various members over the years. Then there may be another issue with members getting upset that 'their' post has been moderated...

One forum that I am a member of has a special area for posts and threads that are considered to be against the ethos of the forums. Posts and threads are moved to this area, but still remain viewable (but may be subject to being edited depending on which rules were broken). This is not a normal off topic area. If this site decides to have such an area, one consideration should be will replies be allowed in this area?

Now the main point. The final decision on anything here, including the very existence of this forum is down to the owner and operator. It is not a fully democratic place. No ordinary member has any right to so called free speech. Each and every member here had to request to join, and then the owner/operator or an administrator or moderator (operating on their behalf) either accepted your membership or rejected your membership. So at any time, they can revoke your membership. It's their call.

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Re: Moderator Action

Post by PeterJ »

Rorthron wrote: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:54 am Hikoki and Hikaru. This is going to get confusing... :)
I'm glad it's not just me!
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Re: Moderator Action

Post by 1024MAK »

PeterJ wrote: Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:39 pm
Rorthron wrote: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:54 am Hikoki and Hikaru. This is going to get confusing... :)
I'm glad it's not just me!
It helps that one gives their location as Russia but does not have a picture avatar, while the other does not list their location, but does use a picture avatar...

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Re: Moderator Action

Post by PeterJ »

Hikaru wrote: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:16 am

For convenience's sake, I will try to present the important bits of information that we know about this screw-up below during the next 2 hours.

1. A regular and known member was banned indefinitely for stating that 'Someone somewhere is a Nazi'.
That is so far from the truth!
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