The Perils of Willy

People are still making stuff for the Sinclair related machines. Tell us about new games and other software that runs on the Spectrum, ZX80/ZX81, Pentagon and Next.
User avatar
R-Tape
Site Admin
Posts: 6353
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:46 am

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by R-Tape »

It seems we're more interested in arguing about this than actually playing the game! Except for danny, who has probably spent more time on it than anyone.

Edited typo
User avatar
Ivanzx
Manic Miner
Posts: 736
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:51 am

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Ivanzx »

R-Tape wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:38 am It seems we're more interested than arguing about this than actually playing the game! Except for danny, who has probably spent more time on it than anyone.
+1 👍
User avatar
Alessandro
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1908
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:10 am
Location: Messina, Italy
Contact:

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Alessandro »

jetsetdanny wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:12 pmPreventing adult, intelligent people from doing things they choose to do is limiting their freedom. It is something totalitarian regimes like to do, to limit or eliminate individual choices. It should not be happening in the free world.
"Freedom" does not mean doing what you want without regard for other people's safety and/or feelings. Otherwise I could take myself the freedom to individually choose to publicly define you as an a*****e all over this forum, which I won't because a) I don't think you are :) and b) I don't do such things. Or to point a gun at you and ask you to hand me your Spectrum since I chose it for my collection :lol:

Once again, I am with Allan on this issue, although I can understand Danny's concern.

I too get annoyed by this irrational urge to be the first to swallow a new game and put the results on YouTube, and what's worse, for a foolish sense of self-gratification. Cheats did exist even back in the day of course, and people resorted to them. But there was no internet (for the general user), no YouTube etc. Moreover, you had to wait for months before some POKE could be published on magazines. Many games were not covered at all.

If there is something that can be defined as the "spirit of retrogaming", in my personal opinion, it is the challenge, the beauty of being put to the test and finishing without any external aid. It is not so much the "arrival" that matters; rather, it is the "travel", how you manage to get to the end.

I guess many have been "spoiled" by emulation and the possibility of having information of every kind displayed on a screen in a matter of seconds. But I am not against completing games with rollback per se, although I find it cheap most of the times - not always since I also took advantage of it when recording the RZX for The Sentinel. I am against this malpractice of being-the-first-and-show-it-to-everyone. It hurts me that after spending months on developing a game, I see it completed by cheating on YouTube the day after release.
R-Tape wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:38 amIt seems we're more interested in arguing about this than actually playing the game
As an exercise in retroprogramming, I find it quite impressing. As a game in itself... well, not so much to be honest :)

As for Andre, about 4 times out of 5 I disagree with what he writes on his blog :roll: But I can live with that :mrgreen:
highrise
Manic Miner
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:29 pm

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

I think debate is healthy. It's been interesting for me to see what other people think about this idea. Certainly there is no need to start talking about human rights or freedoms, that really blows it out of proportion.

For me it's about finding ways to develop a healthy, respectful relationship between those who make the games and those who play them. This is not a situation where there are millions of people buying a game and it is done for huge amounts of money. These games are mostly made with care and love for the medium, and are a big part of keeping the scene alive. It's actually possible for me to know every person who downloads my game individually and have a direct relationship with them. And if someone spends hours cooking you a delicious meal, is it wrong for them to suggest you take your time over it? If you decide to just wolf it down like dog food, that is your right - but it's not exactly going to encourage them to cook for you again is it? Especially if you decide to film that and put it on Youtube.

And as for the person who has spent the most time on the game, in the most polite way possible, I think it is probably clear who that is.
User avatar
R-Tape
Site Admin
Posts: 6353
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:46 am

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by R-Tape »

I can't take my own advice!
highrise wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:51 pm And if someone spends hours cooking you a delicious meal, is it wrong for them to suggest you take your time over it?
I think it would be wrong to suggest it.
If you decide to just wolf it down like dog food, that is your right - but it's not exactly going to encourage them to cook for you again is it?
Maybe it would, or it certainly wouldn't bother me. Maybe that's how they like to eat. Maybe it means they really enjoyed it. I think this is one of those innate things where you either feel one way or the other.
Especially if you decide to film that and put it on Youtube.
As far as games go, I'm fine with that, but with the food yes it would be a bit weird.
And as for the person who has spent the most time on the game, in the most polite way possible, I think it is probably clear who that is.
If you mean yourself, then I almost put "apart from the author", but felt it went without saying.
akeley
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1025
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:47 pm

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by akeley »

highrise wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:51 pm Certainly there is no need to start talking about human rights or freedoms, that really blows it out of proportion.
This is something that has really riled me about jetsetdanny's reply. It's one thing to have an argument and disagree about this whole thing, but positioning yourself as some sort of crusader-for-freedom here is just childish and silly. I could perhaps understand if highrise really tried to impose some draconian rules or made legal threats regarding his game, but this whole brohuaha is about a really mild request to simply not publish a specific thing for a couple of weeks. I mean - 2 weeks! Even if you think it's lame, unreasonable, or whatever, you could just go along with it for this really short period of time, out of simple respect for the author. It's something those aforementioned "adult, intelligent people" should understand without much fuss.

The other arguments presented are also rather weak. Rollback or longplay vid is nothing like a review/screenshots, so this comparison simply does not apply here. I have yet to hear about a serious review which gives away every plot point and ending. And the "nobody has to watch it" thing is a fallacy - we all know that once it's out there people are very likely to just click through it on the first watch and so are more likely to tick the thing off as "done". Why is it so hard to understand that this is why the "2 weeks" grace period might matter to the author?

Calling the recording of this particular game a "walkthrough" is also kinda amusing - as if The Perils was some hard-as-nails adventure game needing an insta-solution, instead of being just a simple platformer. Now, again, there's nothing wrong with posting such, ahem, walkthrough at some point in time. But doing it instantly against the author's wish, and without any good reasons, tells me it's much more about the simple "first!" urge, than any grandiose concepts such as freedom of speech.
+3code

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by +3code »

What is "rollback"? Snapshots?
Daren
Manic Miner
Posts: 248
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:22 am

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Daren »

When recording an rzx file, rollback allows the user to mark a position, which they can then roll back to if they get into difficulty, & try again. It's like saving snapshots but without the actual saving.
highrise
Manic Miner
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:29 pm

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

or put another way, it's like betting in poker, and then when you lose you get your money back and get to play the hand again.
highrise
Manic Miner
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:29 pm

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

it's an interesting debate isn't it. And clearly there are opposing views. That's why I suggested a short grace period as a compromise.

But anyway, I think I've spent enough time expressing my arguments here. Anyone can do whatever they want with the game, but I think it's only right for me to let people know that there are certain things which annoy me, because although you can choose whatever you want to do, you don't get to choose how other people feel about it. So I'm giving you the chance to decide for yourselves whether you want to annoy me or not. I generally spend more time making new games when I'm not annoyed.
User avatar
Ivanzx
Manic Miner
Posts: 736
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:51 am

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Ivanzx »

It is, indeed, an interesting debate, but please (to everyone) keep insults away from here ;)
User avatar
Ivanzx
Manic Miner
Posts: 736
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:51 am

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Ivanzx »

And by the way, when I mentioned Andre using snapshots, it was more of a comical break in all the debate, as personally it doesn´t really matter at all if someone uses cheats or not to complete the games :)
jetsetdanny
Dizzy
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 10:22 pm
Contact:

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by jetsetdanny »

Things have calmed down a little bit, so let me try to explain some points from my perspective, in the spirit of cooperation and understanding :) .
highrise wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:40 am This whole conversation could have gone in a completely different way with better communication.
I agree. Let’s move it in a direction that will serve everyone better!

highrise wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:40 am In my defence, Coronavirus has effectively closed my business, and I'm stuck at home the whole day. I'm not looking for sympathy, we are all in this together, but it does leave us all feeling more raw and vulnerable than usual.
I agree with this as well. Personally, I don’t have a business to worry about, but I have other reasons to worry about COVID-19. I would think that most people are more on the edge than usual these days, and that includes myself.

highrise wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:40 am It's clear to me that Danny felt that I was aiming my criticism directly at him. Looking back at the thread, I can understand why that was, and I can understand why he would react in that way, especially since his intentions were only to be helpful. It must have felt like a slap in the face
It did, kind of. Let me elaborate:

I am passionate about Manic Miner (MM) and Jet Set Willy (JSW) games (i.e. games using the respective game engines and their modified versions) for the ZX Spectrum. I love MM and JSW games and I am not ashamed to admit that. That’s one of the reasons my previous responses were emotional.

I did not have bad intentions. From my perspective, the situation was like this:

You released the game, which I was really happy to see. You asked that people do not make full 'walkthrough' videos for the time being, but you did not mention RZX recordings. Had you mentioned RZX recordings explicitly, I may have refrained from making mine.

So I proceeded to do what I always do, if times permits, when a new MM or JSW game is released: I completed the game (and had a great time doing it!), RZX-recorded it, using Rollback, and sent the recording to Daren of the RZX Archive.

Daren was respectful of your request and did not make a video of the RZX recording, as he normally does, only added the RZX recording to the Archive. When you asked him to take it down, he did. In other words, the RZX Archive respected your request fully and you shouldn't hold any grudge against them.

The result of it was, though, that my recording showing the completion of the game, available publicly for a short time, was taken down. I was certainly upset by this, as nothing like this had ever happened before.

Please note that – as explained before – I do understand why RZX recordings, which are really game files, cannot be hosted if the author doesn’t want the game to be downloadable from other sites than his own. However, in such cases Daren normally makes a video and he is hosting the video only, while where the link to the RZX file would be, it says, “Distribution Denied”.

In this case, though, the video was denied as well, and it was upsetting.

highrise wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:17 am it seems I am portrayed as some kind of villain for wanting to control the distribution of my work in a way that ensures quality control (which is my right), and for believing that people should try to complete the games in an honourable way (which is just my opinion).
I do not consider you a villain ;) . However, please note that I equally don’t want to be portrayed as some kind of villain for wanting to produce quality RZX recordings which may be useful to people and which increase the visibility of MM and JSW games.

highrise wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:40 am So to be clear, I asked (not ordered!) people not to publish videos of them completing the game using rollbacks in the first couple of weeks for the following reasons:
1) Despite my best efforts, little bugs can crop up. These are usually only found once the game is in the wild and played by a much wider audience. In addition I was thinking about maybe adding some new levels.
I understand that. I can only say that I would suggest keeping a game explicitly as a beta release until you are sure there are no more bugs in it. I would not record an RZX recording of a beta release for public consumption (I *would* record a playtest for you, if you asked me to) and I would not add such a game to JSW Central, which is, by its mission statement, for gamma-released games only.

I know that bugs can persist even after a significant amount of playtesting has been done. However, if a game is tested thoroughly by several dedicated players, I think the problems *can* be eliminated before it reaches a wider audience.

If you produce new versions of “The Perils of Willy” and / or make new MM or JSW games in the future (or other similar platform games), I am sure the friendly folks on JetSet Willy & Manic Miner Community will be happy to playtest them for you. Count me in - I will be delighted to be of assistance in this way! :)

Furthermore, I think it wouldn’t be a problem if, after the first gamma-released version of the game, updated versions followed. It has happened in the world of MM and JSW games (which is my focus) before: “Jet Set Willy in Paris” reached version 4.0, “Willy on a Transatlantic Cruise” reached version 2, “Willy's Afterlife” reached version 2.0, and many games were re-released after the gamma-release without specifying the version number. There’s nothing wrong with improving or expanding your game even after the gamma-release :).

When I wrote:
“If you release a newer version of the game, Allan, I *will* record a new RZX walkthrough of it. In fact, if you do it several times and release several new versions of the game - I *will* record a new RZX walkthrough of each version, every time you update the game.”

it was a *promise*, not a threat! I wanted to reassure you that I will update the walkthrough, even if I had to do it several times, so that an up-to-date version of it is always available and that, from the perspective of the videos, you can feel free to update and expand your game as many times as you like. This promise still stands, of course :).

highrise wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:40 am 2) It was intended as a challenge, to lay down the gauntlet and invoke the spirit of the 80s gamers we once were that didn't have that luxury. Playing games without breaking the rules can actually be fun.
I understand your intentions, but I would beg to disagree here, to a certain extent, at least.

I remember the Spectrum games in the 1980s as generally being difficult. There were different kinds of them, of course, in some you could just play to set new personal high scores, but in various games where you had a mission to complete, so to speak, it was extremely difficult to achieve that without either POKEs or tips published in magazines, or both.

There was no internet and no RZX recordings with Rollback back in the 1980s, but there *were* POKEs published in magazines and passed along among the players (e.g. at school), and they were widely applied (in my memory, at least). So it wasn’t as if people weren’t “cheating”, and I would say that applying a POKE which changes the game is much more of cheating than using Rollback – because you are not playing the original game any more, but one that has been modified to make it easier.

If you face some very difficult moments in a JSW game – like pixel-perfect jumps – using Rollback helps mainly because you don’t have to replay the whole game from the start when you lose all remaining lives in that difficult place. But believe me, in *really* difficult games you may have to repeat a manouvre (or series of manoeuvres) fifty or a hundred times before you get it right.

In today’s busy world (and I mean the world from before COVID-19) there is hardly any time for anything. I love playing MM and JSW games, but I could *not* afford to spend hours, and hours, and hours on end replaying sections of the game I have already played before just to get to a very difficult place once again – only to lose all my lives there and have to repeat the whole effort. It is simply impossible. In that sense, some kind of assistance – which you would probably call cheating - *has* to be used.

There are two main possible kinds of what you would call cheating: 1) POKEing the game and 2) saving and reloading snapshots or using Rollback. As mentioned above, I definitely prefer the methods mentioned in the second point, because while using them, you are *still* playing the original game. And, among them, Rollback is much easier and much more efficient to use than saving and reloading snapshots.

highrise wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:17 am for believing that people should try to complete the games in an honourable way (which is just my opinion).
The question of “honour” has cropped up more than once in the posts in this thread, I believe.

While I personally would not relate the concept of “honour” to completing Spectrum games at all, taking your beliefs into account, please consider the following:

If you want to talk about “honour”, it should be there on both ends of the equation. If you want players to behave “honourably”, the games’ authors/producers should behave in the same way.

The original “Jet Set Willy”, released commercially, was incompletable because of bugs. Players might have spent an eternity trying to complete it, and they wouldn’t have been able to, simply because it was impossible without applying POKEs to fix the game. Was that honourable behaviour on the part of the software company which released the game? Was it fair to the players?

Now please consider the Multiple Death Scenarios (MDS) present both in the original JSW and many remakes. You lose a life because of an error and then you lose all the remaining lives because of the same error, without being able to do anything about it (and if you have the Inifinite Lives POKE applied, it becomes an Infinite Death Scenario and you still have to reset the game). Game Over. Is this “honourable”? Is this fair to the player? No, by no means. The player’s using Rollback is a perfect response, though. It does make the game fair. You protect yourself from an MDS by rolling the recording back. The author of the game was unfair to you and you have taken adequate steps to avoid the consequences of his wrongdoing. That's pure self-defence - is anything wrong with it? ;)

Fast forward 35 years. We are involved in retrogaming, but this term can have various connotations for various people. I specialise in MM and JSW games for the Spectrum, so I will speak *only* about them now.

There are various games released in the last decades, which are *forbiddingly* difficult. This includes some of the projects I have worked on. Look at the Hard Version of “Jet Set Willy: The 2010 Megamix” (which includes rooms and sprites by myself but also by many other authors, most notably John Equinox Collins and various others – detailed credits are in the Readme). The game has 256 edited rooms and 256 items to collect. In order to complete the game, the player has to visit 248 rooms. Some of them are quite easy, but a significant number (at least 80, I would say, maybe more) are very difficult, requiring tight jumps and the knowledge of various quirks of the game engine. You start out with 10 spare lives. That’s nothing – once you get to “The Land of Great Hardship”, you’ll lose them before passing the second room in that part of the game’s map. I would be *amazed* if any human being was able to complete this game (the Hard Version) without any kind of assistance ("cheating") – I think it’s just impossible.

In a sense, “Jet Set Willy: The 2010 Megamix” is an example of a game that is *designed for ZX Spectrum emulators*. It is not designed for the original hardware, because it would be very difficult to complete it even using the Infinite Lives POKE. It is designed to be played saving and reloading snapshots – or using Rollback. Otherwise, it’ll drive you crazy.

There are various other examples of such games, which I can discuss in detail if need be.

This is also retrogaming, but another kind of retrogaming. It’s facing extreme challenges with a full support of Rollback/snapshot saving. Telling someone *not* to use Rollback when playing those games would not even be a dishonourable action: it would be plain cruelty! :lol:

highrise wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:17 am If you are able to complete the game within the rules of the game, I would 100% welcome it.
With the kind of games I described above, these *are* the rules of the game: you’ve *got to* use either some POKEs or Rollback, or you just won’t be able to complete them.

Of course not all games are like this, some could be completed without using Rollback.

However, please consider this.

There have been various negative comments in this thread about using Rollback, saying it’s cheap and lazy and cheating, and the like. Even this comment you made:
highrise wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:03 pm What I am against is people using RZX rollback simply to be the first person to complete a game and post a video, often doing so within 24 hours of the release, not posting opinions or reviews, and doing so for every single game, regardless of how they feel about it. This is because (a) I don't think it requires any great skill or talent
You say you don' think completing a game using Rollback requires any great skill or talent. I don't know about that, but I can say that *at times* it requires a lot of hard work.

Please note that I will now be speaking *only* about walkthroughs of MM and JSW games, which is my area of expertise. I will *not* be speaking about other games, or all games in general, because I do not feel competent to do it.

The majority of the recordings of MM and JSW games currently hosted on RZX Archive are my recordings.

Making these recordings is a challenge for me and I consider them to be a work of ark to a certain extent.

I am trying to observe the following standards for these recordings:

Each game has to be completed as smoothly, elegantly and efficiently as possible, aiming to achieve the best completion time (for JSW games) or the highest score (for MM games).

The protagonist (usually, but not always, Willy) should act decisively, without hesitation, and without making any unnecessary moves (like stepping back where he can just wait standing in one place). He should take the shortest, most efficient route possible (that’s in JSW games, of course; in MM it can apply to routes within the rooms). The challenges he faces should be overcome without any unnecessary waste of time. Needless to say, no lives can be lost beyond those (as is the case in some games, regretfully) that need to be sacrificed to collect an item / some items.

It may sound trivial to do all these things, but it is not, at least not in many of the released games. Finding the shortest route in the biggest JSW games, with teleports, illogical exits from rooms (e.g. taking you to rooms far away on the map from the one you’ve just left) and detours you need to make to reach certain places can be a daunting task. Sendy’s “where’s woody” is an example of such a game – you need to visit some 240 rooms to complete it, the game is not linear by any means, how do you establish the most efficient route to take when there are literally dozens of possible routes?

When working on recording RZX games for the RZX Archive, many times I had to re-record a given game three or four times to get the quality of the recording I wanted – the optimal route, efficient jumps and no hesitation. It was not a “cheap and lazy” exercise, it was hard work to first prepare these recordings – to know which way I should go and what I should do in each room – and then to record them, and then to re-record them to make them even better. It took me between one and two weeks – working a few hours per day – to produce satisfactory recordings of the most challenging JSW games.

The results of using Rollback are an illusion – and you may not like it. You’re perfectly entitled to this opinion. Nevertheless, other people may like it, so why take it away from them by denying those who record the right to use Rollback?

The walkthroughs created using Rollback are an illusion: they have a quality that would be impossible to achieve without it. I admit it, it’s obvious. The RZX Archive gives information whether or not a recording was made using Rollback. There is no cheating there. You know it was done using Rollback, you know it’s an illusion.

However, what a beautiful illusion it may be! It’s like a good movie – good movies are also illusions created for the sake of the viewers. It’s beautiful, because Willy is moving gracefully, wasting no time, heading firmly forward, avoiding the monsters with close jumps that at times seem to border on magic. It’s not a result of magic, though – it’s the result of hard, repetitive work.

Of course, not all games are as difficult and challenging, some aren’t. Also, MM games are easier to record, because the uncertainty can only be about intra-room routes, not the inter-room ones. And even then, it took me some two weeks to complete the game and make a decent RZX recording of “Manic Scribbler” – the most difficult MM game in existence, I think – or of some of Andrew Broad’s MM games, full of tricks using the so-called quirky features of the game engine.

highrise wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:40 am 3) I am frustrated at certain channels that use rollback on every single game that comes out within hours to be the first to post a video and get Youtube hits. I still don't believe they make any net contribution to the community.
It may be that you are talking about things beyond my experience. The only YouTube channel I know that regularly presents full walkthroughs of the Spectrum games is the one run by the RZX Archive (there is another one – zxspectrumgames4 – but, as I understand, it used to make videos of RZX recordings published on the RZX Archive, it did not have its own “supply” of RZX recordings, and stopped doing this after being admonished for using someone else's work).

I have a very high opinion of the RZX Archive, I am proud to be a contributor over there (in my narrow specialty of MM and JSW games) and I believe it does provide valuable service to the community.

highrise wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:03 pm What I am against is people using RZX rollback simply to be the first person to complete a game and post a video, often doing so within 24 hours of the release, not posting opinions or reviews, and doing so for every single game, regardless of how they feel about it. This is because (a) I don't think it requires any great skill or talent, (2) I don't think it benefits anyone except themselves, because they aren't actually interested in the game, they re interested in getting some kind of credit or hits on Youtube.
This touches upon an interesting subject of expectations – what do authors expect from players?

Let me make an important distinction here.

There may be a relatively small circle of people – like the guys on JetSet Willy & Manic Miner Community, for example – that will assist me in preparing a bug-free release of my games or projects. I *will* expect them to playtest and comment on *beta versions* of my games or *working files* I upload *just for them*, because that’s the essence of our collaboration. I will do the same for them, of course.

I do have certain expectations of these friendly folks, because we work on things together and support each other.

However, once I declare a game gamma-released and upload it for anyone interested to download, I do *not* have any expectations whatsoever.

I have no idea how many people have played the games I have released / the projects I have worked on (I am not the sole author of various games I worked on and I keep saying “projects I worked on” to avoid the wrong impression that I have released several games of my sole authorship).

The feedback I received by e-mail (which I always encourage in the Readmes) has been minimal over the years. The feedback on websites has also been limited.

Five days before you released “The Perils of Willy”, Highrise, I released “Madam Blavskja’s Carnival Macabre 48K”, a port to 48K of Fabián Álvarez López (Adban de Corcy)'s 2002 JSW128 game. It’s not just a 128K game squeezed into 48K, it’s a game enhanced with several new rooms (and an option to play with them or just the original game), enriched music and various technical novelties. It took me some four months of extremely intense work to create it (and I wasn’t the only person working on it – Ian Rushforth made some brilliant contributions). Since it was released (with the original author’s approval), *not a single comment* was posted on the Spectrum Computing thread where it was announced. I think it’s the same situation on World of Spectrum (I didn’t check it today).

In this context, I am happy if I know that someone outside of the small circle of members of JetSet Willy & Manic Miner Community had a brief go at my projects. I don’t honestly expect most people to complete these games (although “Madam Blavskja’s Carnival Macabre 48K” is an easy one to play, and its rooms, designed by Fabián, are charmingly atmospheric). If they play them just a little bit, I consider it a success. I hardly expect anyone to write any reviews – if people won’t even play these games properly ("properly" meaning to me "for more than a quarter of an hour"), how can you expect them to spend time writing reviews?

To be honest, I don’t mind at all if someone just watches an RZX walkthrough of my game. They will at least have an idea of how it looks and what it’s about. Of course, I would prefer people to play the game, discover it and enjoy. But if that’s impossible – because few people really appreciate JSW games any more and everyone is busy in the middle of the rat race – I prefer people to watch a video rather than not have any contact with the game at all.

I believe authors should be humble in what they do and should not have inflated expectations. I believe authors are servants in a sense, and players are masters. The player can do anything – play my game to completion without any assistance (“cheating”), play it to completion with assistance (“cheating”), play it only in part without any assistance (“cheating”), play it in part with assistance (“cheating”), just have a brief, passing look at it, not play it at all but watch the whole RZX walkthrough, not play it at all but watch a part of the RZX walkthrough, not play it at all and not watch the walkthrough either.

Who am I to tell them what to do? If they become interested in the game so as to spend a little more time on it – I am thrilled. If they like the game and play it to completion – I am happy. If they write a nice review – I am delighted. If they write a bad review – I am not happy, but I appreciate the fact that they have taken the time to write that review at all. If they complete the game using “cheating”, like POKEs – I feel sorry *for them* that they missed the real beauty and thrill of it. But it’s their choice, I don’t feel authorised to interfere with it in any way.

Once a book is on the shelf in the bookstore, the author can only sit back and watch the developments. No more changes or corrections (until the second edition, at least), just watching if people react to their book at all and, if so, what their reactions are. I think it’s similar for homebrew games.

I would *never* condition the players’ activities in any way, even in my mind – like thinking that if they want to make an RZX recording, they should first write a review to show their respect for me as the author and for the work and time I have put into creating the game. The players do what they want, they are the masters. They did not ask me to create the game in the first place – I did it because *I* wanted to do it – and they have *no obligations* whatsoever towards me – they can take whatever they want from what I created, and I don’t expect them to give anything back. If they do, it’s fantastic, particularly if their feedback is positive. But I don’t expect it. I am nicely surprised if they do. I am only a little sad if they don’t. But this sadness is *my* problem, not theirs – because I don’t think I can expect or demand anything from them.

highrise wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:51 pm And if someone spends hours cooking you a delicious meal, is it wrong for them to suggest you take your time over it? If you decide to just wolf it down like dog food, that is your right - but it's not exactly going to encourage them to cook for you again is it? Especially if you decide to film that and put it on Youtube.
Well, this is again a question of expectations and, even more, of your motivation to make games. From what you wrote, it looks like you make games *for people* AND expect them to enjoy them the way you imagine they should, i.e. slowly, taking their time.

I must admit that with this kind of motivation – which you are fully entitled to have, of course, it’s your motivation – it is logical that you are disappointed when people “wolf down” your games.

My attitude is very different, and perhaps that’s one of the reasons why we have a hard time understanding each other. I create games / work on game-related projects because it gives me pleasure to do it. I am taking the possible players’ response into account (like whether to make the game very difficult, whether or not to use the quirky features of the game engine, etc.), but I am essentially making the game because *I* want to make it, not because I think someone is waiting for it or needs it.

It’s like I am cooking a meal mainly for the sheer pleasure of cooking it. I share it with a small circle of friends before it’s fully ready and this is the only stage when I expect some comments, feedback or even help. Once the meal is fully ready – gamma-released, so to speak – I offer it to the wider public, but I don’t have any particular expectations of what its members will do with it / about it, I don’t expect them to behave in any special way.

If they ignore it, that’s fine. If they wolf it down, that’s fine too. If they enjoy it longer, that’s great. I assume that very few people will actually spend more time on it. If they do – it’s very gratifying. If they don’t – it doesn’t matter, I've had my pleasure already while creating the game.

And I really don’t mind if they put it on YouTube. I am not very happy if they put there low quality, poor recordings of the game I created, or perhaps only of parts thereof, with not-too-supportive comments. But I appreciate even those, because those poor videos and those dismissive comments mean that some people actually played the game, which is more I may have hoped for.

Alessandro wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:02 pm
highrise wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:04 pm It's not nice to see that after months of working at a game and fine tuning it before release, people cheat by using rollback and snapshots and complete it almost soon after it has been released. It feels lazy and cheap to me. Couldn't these users at least try if they can complete it for a week or so before resorting to cheats?
Why does it bother you that they complete the game quickly? It’s their choice. They could have chosen to play the game “the hard way”, they chose the easy way. Appreciate the fact that they played the game at all, they didn’t have to!

Alessandro wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:39 pm I too get annoyed by this irrational urge to be the first to swallow a new game and put the results on YouTube, and what's worse, for a foolish sense of self-gratification.
Whether this urge is “irrational” or not, and whether their sense of self-gratification is “foolish”, is a matter of subjective opinion. Apparently, this urge and this gratification serve some purpose for those who do it; otherwise they wouldn’t be doing it. Why does it annoy you so much, though?

Judging by your opinions, you look down on this kind of activity (“swallowing” a new game and putting the results on YouTube). Consequently, I understand you don’t have a particularly high opinion of the people who do these things. Why do you care about what they do, then? Let’s call them – for the sake of discussion and simplicity only – “losers”. There are some “losers” who “swallow” new games and put the results on YouTube. Would you like *these people* to be the admirers of your games? Would you like “loosers” to be the ones to write the reviews of your games? Do you even care about them?

If you do, I would say it’s strange. I would care a thousand times more about people I would not consider to be “losers”. The opinion about my game of one person I value highly would matter to me a hundred times more than the opinions of ten people I consider “losers”. Why bother about them at all? If they want – for whatever reason – to record your game quickly and upload it, it’s their choice. It makes them “losers” in your eyes. Do you care about the opinion of “losers”? Would you like to read their reviews? Why? They are “losers” and it’s pretty much a waste of time to deal with them.

Now, the people you don’t consider “loosers”, the ones who are ready to play your game without (or with little) assistance, spend a considerable time playing it and then write a review – they don’t have to watch the YouTube videos the “loosers” have posted. What’s more, *if* they are like-minded people for you and share your views and preferences, they *will not* watch these videos, they will play your game without watching them. Their opinion is what really should matter to you. So why would it bother you that the videos are out there?

The “loosers” recorded their quick videos and got their instant gratification. The “wise men” (and women, as much as those can be found in the Spectrum community) did not watch the videos and played your game without any assistance ("cheating"), and then wrote meaningful reviews. You've just made two groups of people happy. What’s wrong with that?

Please note that someone may think I wrote this ironically. No, there’s irony here at all, I really think this is the way things are. *If* there are people I don’t respect, I don’t care about their opinion. I do care about the opinion of those I respect, though.

Alessandro wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:39 pm If there is something that can be defined as the "spirit of retrogaming", in my personal opinion, it is the challenge, the beauty of being put to the test and finishing without any external aid. It is not so much the "arrival" that matters; rather, it is the "travel", how you manage to get to the end.
I won’t say that what you described is not the spirit of retrogaming, but I would say there are more spirits and more definitions of retrogaming than one. As mentioned above, I spent countless hours working on RZX-recording JSW games that took weeks to record properly, even with Rollback. The “arrival” did matter, I will not deny this – but what a “travel” it was, each time!

highrise wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:40 am it's likely that because of that, I came across as someone who is dismissive or arrogant. Hopefully my more recent posts have shown that I'm neither of those things.
No, I actually didn’t perceive you as either, and I know you are not. I just think we have different opinions on some things we feel strongly about. I hope we will be able to find some mutually acceptable middle ground – and I am looking forward to it :) .
Website: JSW Central
highrise
Manic Miner
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:29 pm

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

That's a lot to take in... well look, what it comes down to is this. I know that archiving the games is a good thing, and I know people find walkthroughs useful. Although I personally am against using rollback, I am not suggesting it should not be used at all. All I'm saying is that as an author I would like to have at least a bit of time to enjoy seeing people playing the game, talking about it, exchanging experiences and trying to complete it without cheating. I worked with a number of playtesters to make a game which is around the same difficulty level of Manic Miner. It's absolutely possibly to complete it with a bit of practice, and it should be rewarding to do so.

People focus on those playing the game enjoying it but they sometimes forget that we don't make these games for money. Donations are nice, but apart from the challenge of coding, the one single thing that motivates authors and gives them the most pleasure with a game like this is seeing people rise to the challenge you have given them. It was fantastic to read different people talking and saying 'ooh, I made it to level ten' and so on. When someone posts a complete walkthrough within hours, using rollback, it goes against the spirit of that and massively devalues the experience in my eyes. It's basically pissing on my fire. Whether you see it this way or not, to me it's like a spoiler in a movie. It's not illegal to tell your friend how a movie turns out that they haven't seen, in fact you could argue that it's your right to pass that information on if you feel like it, but it is definitely not very considerate. You might argue that I could ignore the videos but it doesn't work like that. I don't need to watch them because I have already gone through the game dozens of times. I know it better than anyone. Once I know those videos are out there it's like breaking a spell, a reminder that something you really don't like is being used on your game. You can't stop people from doing it, but people who do it don't have a right to tell you that you're wrong for being disappointed. Being disappointed is not the same as being dictatorial.

..and that is why I asked for a two week grace period. Given that people have been waiting 36 years for this game, I am sure they can spare me a couple of weeks grace.
jetsetdanny
Dizzy
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 10:22 pm
Contact:

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by jetsetdanny »

akeley wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm
highrise wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:51 pm Certainly there is no need to start talking about human rights or freedoms, that really blows it out of proportion.
This is something that has really riled me about jetsetdanny's reply.
If you are riled about my reply, it's because the truth of what I wrote is hurting you :lol:

akeley wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm It's one thing to have an argument and disagree about this whole thing, but positioning yourself as some sort of crusader-for-freedom here is just childish and silly.
You are entitled to this opinion.

And I would say that if someone tells someone else not to do something I believe that person is perfectly entitled to do, it is limiting their freedom.

And when people start talking about rules: a "one-week rule" or "two-weeks rule" or "whatever-time rule", it is the beginning of limiting someone's freedom systemically.

Once rules limiting the players' freedoms are invented and imposed, someone may want to try to enforce them legally. That's why it's better to fight them from the very start, before it's too late ;).

akeley wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm I could perhaps understand if highrise really tried to impose some draconian rules or made legal threats regarding his game
You can't be sure he won't ;) . And having to wait for two weeks is a draconian rule for someone who wants to do something immediately! :lol:

akeley wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm but this whole brohuaha is about a really mild request to simply not publish a specific thing for a couple of weeks. I mean - 2 weeks! Even if you think it's lame, unreasonable, or whatever, you could just go along with it for this really short period of time, out of simple respect for the author. It's something those aforementioned "adult, intelligent people" should understand without much fuss.
The problem is the original request on the author's website - as it is still formulated over there - is NOT "for two weeks", it is "for now".

"For now" can be mean for a day, or for a week, or for years. Coronavirus has paralised normal life for now. Do you know long it will take to go back to normal? You don't know when that "now" will end in the author's mind. Not even "adult, intelligent people" can know it if they just have a look at the game's website.

akeley wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm The other arguments presented are also rather weak. Rollback or longplay vid is nothing like a review/screenshots, so this comparison simply does not apply here.
That’s just your opinion. You are entitled to have it.

akeley wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm I have yet to hear about a serious review which gives away every plot point and ending. And the "nobody has to watch it" thing is a fallacy - we all know that once it's out there people are very likely to just click through it on the first watch and so are more likely to tick the thing off as "done". Why is it so hard to understand that this is why the "2 weeks" grace period might matter to the author?
It is not a fallacy. Exercise self-control! If you know there are some heinous websites out there which are showing videos of newly-released Spectrum games, and if you realise you may be tempted to click on them which will lead you to tick something off as “done” – DON’T EVER VISIT THEM! This may save your Spectrum soul from this filth! :lol:

akeley wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm Calling the recording of this particular game a "walkthrough" is also kinda amusing - as if The Perils was some hard-as-nails adventure game needing an insta-solution, instead of being just a simple platformer.
I find it curious that you find it amusing. If the recording of someone completing a simple platformer should not be called a “walkthrough” – then what should it be called? I am asking seriously, I would like to know what word you would use for it.

akeley wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm Now, again, there's nothing wrong with posting such, ahem, walkthrough at some point in time.
See – you said “at some point in time”, you didn't say “two weeks after the release”! This only proves the point about "for now" I made above.

akeley wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm But doing it instantly against the author's wish, and without any good reasons, tells me it's much more about the simple "first!" urge, than any grandiose concepts such as freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech may be a grandiose concept, but it is also a very practical and simple one (just like some urges). And it should be defended vigorously when the first dark clouds start to gather over it on the Spectrum screen! :!:
Website: JSW Central
highrise
Manic Miner
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:29 pm

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

Here's the reality. Once a game is out there, you are perfectly entitled to do whatever you want with it. You can archive it for personal use, you can poke it or hack it, you can stand on your head playing it, whatever you want.

but you can't publish that if you are basically just showing the entire game - especially if it's done on a channel that is in any way monetised.

Do you think, in all seriousness, that you could publish a 'watchthrough video' of yourself watching an entire episode of say, The Mandalorian? Do you think the argument would be that you were doing it for archive purposes, or that you were 'helping' people to know the ending? It just doesn't work like that, no matter how much you might wish it to. When you download a game, it is for personal use, not public.

This is why I am more than happy for people to present sections of a game, and give criticism and review, even if it's negative. That is because they are actually using their own talents to create something new. Publishing a video or and rzx recording of an entire game being played the way most people would play it, i.e a walkthrough, is absolutely not the same as that.

Whether you agree with this or not is not really the point. As you say, once you own a game you can do whatever you like. I can't reasonably request that people don't use rollbacks or snapshots to finish a game. If you complete a game I can't stop you from letting people know you have completed it, and whether you enjoyed it or not. But I can request that they don't publish themselves doing it in a way that effectively shows the entire game.

You are perfectly welcome to express your opinions about the game, positive or negative. That is the freedom of speech you talk about, which I value just as highly as you do. It absolutely does not give you the right to record an entire playthrough of a game and publish it, because there is nothing in that which expresses your views or opinions.
User avatar
djnzx48
Manic Miner
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:13 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by djnzx48 »

When you're telling people what they can and can't do with your game, are you speaking on behalf of Matthew Smith and the author of the VIC-20 version? Are they allowed an opinion when people make derivative works of something they produced?
User avatar
Ivanzx
Manic Miner
Posts: 736
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:51 am

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Ivanzx »

To be honest, Allan, I deeply admire and respect the work you are doing with AGD and Spectrum programming in general, it is really doing good for the scene ;) but I can´t agree and can´t understand some things like this in particular, and others like when a programmer was told off in public because he published his game (for sale, 1,50€ or so) and did not put your name, when this has happened also the other way around ;)
I think we should be all thankful and not so picky when it comes to the Spectrum scene and how it is being alive, as many people are supporting and contributing in some many ways that this would not be possible :)

For example I have organised the last 3 ZX Devs and they took soooooooooo much time and also quite some money!! from my pocket. Many videos, blogs, etc wrote about the games being submitted for them and many of them did not even mentioned the ZX Dev itself. I never demanded anything to anyone, everybody is free to do, as long as they don´t disrespect or insult, etc. This is what you do for the love of the machine, basically :)

I know it is just my opinion, but those are my 2 cents :)
highrise
Manic Miner
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:29 pm

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

Before I answer that, I want to make the very clear point that I am producing work which anyone can use for free, and I'm not 'telling' anyone what to do. The only thing I did was to ask that people don't publish the game being played in its entirety for the first few weeks. I wasn't forcing anyone to do anything, I was simply pointing out the flaw in the argument that they are free to do what they want with the game.

As regards the game itself, this is an entirely different discussion, and not one which changes the point I made. However, if I did have to defend it I would point out the following:

- no code from the Vic-20 game was used in the making of this game.
- the game is based on a reverse engineered version of the Manic Miner code. It does not use original source code, and is not a hack of any original code.
- although the levels are based on the Vic-20 game they are built from scratch and due to alternative mechanics, play entirely differently to the original.

I would argue therefore that the only issue would be the question of IP. It is possible that using the title of the game, and the use of the character may infringe in that instance. If this is the case however, this would not only apply to this game, but to every other mod of Manic Miner or Jet Set Willy, including the ones made by Danny.

As I said, it's a totally different argument. If someone wants to push the button on that nuclear option and get the game withdrawn, that is their prerogative. All I did was ask people not to post complete walkthroughs of the game in the first two weeks.
highrise
Manic Miner
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:29 pm

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

and Ivan, with regard to the matter of the game made with AGDxMini. As you know, I put a huge amount of time into AGDx, and made it available completely for free for anyone to use. In addition, I made a number of patches for AGDx which add more functionality, in particular AGDxMini.

AGDxMini is also entirely free for anyone to use, but because it uses a large amount of code I wrote, I did set the following terms clearly:

1) That I should be given an 'additional code' credit, which is entirely normal when someone uses your code. The main reason for this is that I want people to be aware that it was written with AGDxMini so that they might seek it out and make games themselves.
2) That any games built using the code I provided for free, should only be available for free. Asking for donations is fine.

Games which use regular AGD or AGDx (without patches), use code by Jonathan Cauldwell. I do not, and have never, asked for credit or set conditions on that code, because it doesn't belong to me. I think the conditions I set on my own code, which is that it can be used to make free games but is not for commercial use, is completely reasonable, in particular when you consider how much free time I put into AGDx which I have never expected anyone to pay me for.

You appear to suggest that I have been guilty of not giving credit where it's due, or selling something that I don't have the right to sell. I'm not aware of this being the case, but if you have an example of this I will certainly do my best to remedy the situation.
highrise
Manic Miner
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:29 pm

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

and one last point. All the work I do, every game and every mod, has always been available and free to anyone who also makes homebrew games, hosts competitions or generally puts something into the community to help it grow. I am tremendously supportive of anyone that contributes in this way. As a matter of principle I would never expect someone like Ivan to have to pay for anything I've done, or even make a donation. For me that's a simple principle of give and take.
User avatar
Alessandro
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1908
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:10 am
Location: Messina, Italy
Contact:

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Alessandro »

jetsetdanny wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:54 pmWhether this urge is “irrational” or not, and whether their sense of self-gratification is “foolish”, is a matter of subjective opinion.
Well, I think I can be entitled to my own opinions, especially when they are motivated, and so far I think I have not been lacking in motivations...
jetsetdanny wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:54 pmApparently, this urge and this gratification serve some purpose for those who do it; otherwise they wouldn’t be doing it. Why does it annoy you so much, though?
I think I had explained it in my previous posts, but anyway... I am annoyed by the fact that someone plays - or seems to play - my games not because they appreciate them for themselves, but just to add another "hit" to a sort of collection. I don't believe this is a form of appreciaton for what I do. Just "be the first, put your flag on it and show it off on YouTube within a day or so" is all that matters. That's why I think such behavior is irrational and foolish, and I do not like it.
jetsetdanny wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:54 pmJudging by your opinions, you look down on this kind of activity (“swallowing” a new game and putting the results on YouTube). Consequently, I understand you don’t have a particularly high opinion of the people who do these things.
I think you are jumping too quickly to conclusions here. I never wrote I despise people who do this, I get annoyed by this attitude.
jetsetdanny wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:54 pmWhy do you care about what they do, then? Let’s call them – for the sake of discussion and simplicity only – “losers”.
Excessive simplification often leads to misundertandings. I would never refer to someone playing games by cheating just to be the first to do it and putting videos on YouTube in the shortest possible time after release as a "loser", a word that - as far as I know since I am not a native English speaker - has a precise meaning, which is defined by the Cambridge Dictionary as "a person or team that does not win a game or competition", "a person who is always unsuccessful at everything they do", "a person that you have no respect for" etc. None of the above refers to the persons; again, I am criticizing an attitude.

Maybe people who do this are genuinely unaware that I could get annoyed by that. Maybe they are thinking they are not doing anything that could annoy me. Most probably in real life they are nice folks and we could also have some drinks or a pizza together, who knows. It's that particular behavior that annoys me, not the persons in particular. I just wish they could restrain from this absurd rush to "do it within a day or so and be the first to show it off" because, for the reasons I do not wish to repeat once more, I do not find such attitude respectful towards my humble contributions to the Spectrum retrocomputing scene. No need to make distinctions between "losers" or "wise men" or anything else for that matter, that were not in my intentions in the first place, anyway.

I hope things are clearer now because, honestly, I am getting tired of repeating the same things over and over and yet being unable to be understood. Maybe it's the language barrier.

As for reviewers - as long as they admit they cheat because they have no time to play a game in order to experience the game itself in much or all of its entirety, well, that does not bother me that much, as long as they have the honesty of admitting it as Andre did.
highrise
Manic Miner
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:29 pm

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

Alessandro, I understand what you are saying completely. In fact, I think a lot of authors would agree with you, including myself.

The good news is that according to my research, an individual does require your consent if they are going to publish a recording of a walkthrough in its entirety, especially if it involves no critical analysis or discussion. As I said before, it's like publishing yourself watching a movie. The fact that the game is not in a playable form doesn't matter because with a simple game like this, by the definition of 'walkthrough' you are showing the game being played in the same way that most people would play it.

This means that:

1) if you wish to you can set an embargo period whilst everyone else enjoys the game.
2) You can also decide who is or isn't allowed to publish full walkthroughs on the basis of how they go about it, i.e if they really love the game for example, as opposed to just trying to get hits on Youtube.

People are still free to complete games using cheats for themselves if they wish to, people can still publish pokes and review the games, they can do "let's play" videos, but they can't post a complete walkthrough without your permission. As I said, it's the difference between personal and public use of your work.
Daren
Manic Miner
Posts: 248
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:22 am

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Daren »

highrise wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:09 am
The good news is that according to my research, an individual does require your consent if they are going to publish a recording of a walkthrough in its entirety, especially if it involves no critical analysis or discussion.
Sources please?
highrise
Manic Miner
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:29 pm

Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

https://ancillarycopyright.eu/news/2019 ... gh-culture\

To be clear, I personally would actively encourage people to review games, do 'let's play' videos, talk and discuss. The only thing I would discourage is the persistent publication of games in their entirety with little or no discretion - particularly when they use rollback to do it.
Last edited by highrise on Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
Post Reply