The Perils of Willy

People are still making stuff for the Sinclair related machines. Tell us about new games and other software that runs on the Spectrum, ZX80/ZX81, Pentagon and Next.
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Andre Leao
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Andre Leao »

Yep, you are correct ;😉
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Daren »

highrise wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:20 am yes, on the 15th March I made the first public release of the game, and asked nicely that people don't publish walkthroughs using rollback as the game may not be fully complete.

On the 16th March, rollback is published. So it seems that you guys are stuck with this version now.... :)
On the download page you only request not to make walkthrough videos of it, nothing about rollback. So when the rzx file was sent to me, I told the author I wouldn't be making a YouTube video of it.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by R-Tape »

On the 16th March, rollback is published. So it seems that you guys are stuck with this version now.... :)
How does that stop you releasing updates?
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Ralf »

I played it a few times and eventually watched the solution at Rzx Archive.

It's fun for a while but for me unfortunately it becomes repetitive after a moment.
All levels use the same graphics and there are only a few enemies - dog, duck, balloon and a little locomotive I believe.

I know it's being faithful to the original version but well... what was decent in 1983 isn't enough in 2020.

The graphics were however really improved, just like general smoothness.

Have a look on the original version on VIC-20. Rather poor I would say. Yet the guys in the comments still have some nice
memories with it :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWJHTZ6bK9w
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

I think it would be pretty clear to anyone that publishing an RZX playback is in principle no different to publishing a video. It's just a different medium. It goes against the spirit of the request, if not the exact wording.

I'm not a fan of using RZX to complete games. If it were possible to prevent it happening in my games, I would. I especially don't like it when they are published within 24 hours of a game being released. In addition, since it is actually a snapshot of the entire game, you are in effect publishing the game in a format that I did not wish it to be published.

That's why i politely asked people to just wait a couple of weeks, particularly since I was planning on making some updates. That gives people time to try to complete the game without the temptation of a replay, gives me time to make updates, and for people to download the game and donate if they wish to.

It's just my view. I respect that other people don't share that view but I think it's reasonable. In addition, it does of course not stop me from releasing updates. What it does do however, is cause me to reconsider whether I should take the time to do it.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

and yes, you are correct, it doesn't stand up to releases in 2020, mainly as it is built using the original 1983 Manic Miner Engine, and designed in a way to look and feel as though it were created in 1984. I felt this was what the community would prefer.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

and just to add, I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm being an a*sehole about it, I'm honestly not. I'm really flattered and happy that people are enjoying the game. It's just that these things take a lot of time to get right so I think it's quite natural to be a little protective and try to encourage people to play the game in the spirit it was made, that of 1984 when things like rollback didn't exist.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Alessandro »

highrise wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:04 pm I'm not a fan of using RZX to complete games. If it were possible to prevent it happening in my games, I would. I especially don't like it when they are published within 24 hours of a game being released. In addition, since it is actually a snapshot of the entire game, you are in effect publishing the game in a format that I did not wish it to be published.

That's why i politely asked people to just wait a couple of weeks, particularly since I was planning on making some updates. That gives people time to try to complete the game without the temptation of a replay, gives me time to make updates, and for people to download the game and donate if they wish to.
I completely agree. I found it very annoying when just a couple of days after the release of one of my games a "walkthrough" video for it had been posted on YouTube. I complained about that with the channel's owner, which is an old contact of mine on the Spectrum scene. He understood my concern and since then he has been so kind to send me an email noticing me that he received a RZX for a game of mine and asking me when I wish it to be made public.

It's not nice to see that after months of working at a game and fine tuning it before release, people cheat by using rollback and snapshots and complete it almost soon after it has been released. It feels lazy and cheap to me. Couldn't these users at least try if they can complete it for a week or so before resorting to cheats?

Sorry if I sound argumentative, I am glad to know people are enjoying my creations, too. But at the same time I would also like my games to be tasted as a good meal, not devoured like junk food :)
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

It's frustrating isn't it. What's worse is that you can even end up feeling like you are being selfish simply because you put in a ton of time and then express disappointment because people choose to steamroller through your work within 24 hours and make that available to everyone.

It doesn't exactly encourage people to create more work does it.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by akeley »

Ralf wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:06 am I know it's being faithful to the original version but well... what was decent in 1983 isn't enough in 2020.
I wouldn't agree with that. I always like to think that what was good back then, should still be good now. This is the retro gaming mindset, where decent gameplay is timeless. And the simplistic gfx is a part of the retro charm too (baring the blasted blinking perhaps), for me at least. Of course, if somebody made a port with souped-up fx (like that Atic Atac on C64) that'd be cool too, but we got a faithful one and I'm happy with that.

About rollbacks (weren't they used to be called "save states" btw?), well, it seems an unfortunate function of the insta-access/gratification times we live in now. The race to be the first to post something on utubz is relentlessly ruthless. I'm sure it'd be the same if we had this internet malarkey back then, but we didn't and it's perhaps fortunate. Personally, I was never into even using POKEs, and I'm glad that it remained so to this day. I don't feel like I have to complete or see the ending of every game out there and I'm okay with just dying at some point and perhaps coming back to it - or not - later. That's just me though.

But if author explicitly asks for something like that not to be done, for a short while at least, then all that's left is just smh mode.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Ivanzx »

I have to say that I highly disagree with Alessandro and Allan, up to a point that it is really difficult for me to understand some of your points, guys :roll:

First, if 1 person, 1 or 2, the one that are doing the videos, are playing using Rollback... what makes you think that the rest of the people that are playing the game will also use rollback? or how that will encourage other people to use also Rollback?? :shock: I think most of the people who are seeing the videos do not even know about rollback. And, how do you know the amount of hours this person used to get the video? Maybe, even with Rollback, he spent 3-4 hours playing your game until completion, something that, let´s admit it nowadays, will not happen with most of the other people who will play your games (from any creator of new Spectrum games)

Another factor, Spectrum games are hard, and very likely, 50-60% of the games are almost impossible to complete without using little advantages, and maybe some people would not even care to try the games without Rollback, maps, pokes, etc...

Third, I also think that the videos in Youtube provide a great visibility for the game. In many cases, specially in Homebrew games, the RZX is the only video in the whole internet about a specific game and that encourages other people to play it (it does it with me) and allows the game to be spread out and more known.

Just that, of course I understand everybody has different opinions and it is about someone´s work, but I felt that other point of view was really needed here ;)
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

I understand your point Ivan, but if you look back you will see that I didn't ask people not to post these videos, I only asked that people show a little patience and wait around two weeks before they post or share a full video of a playthrough. I think that is fair.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

Incidentally, with this particular game, with regard to it not being a '2020' game. I was very aware of how beloved the original games are, so a lot of discussion was had with long term fans of the games as to how best to find the balance and get it to feel like it fitted in with the other two games. Since it was always going to use the original graphic for Willy, it was important that the rest of the graphics were drawn to try fit into that same style.

The same applied to the jump mechanic. It was impossible to complete the levels as they were without either changing it, or the levels themselves. I was determined to keep the original levels as intact as possible, so the jump mechanic had to be rewritten. As a result Willy's jump is one pixel further than in the original, and he also continues to jump even when he hits his head (which was true in the original Vic game). Getting this working whilst at the same time ensuring that the change would hardly be noticed proved to be trickier than you might imagine, but in the end I found a solution I could work with.

The idea was to make the game feel instantly familiar, stayed true to the Vic version whilst also feeling like something slightly different and new.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Ivanzx »

highrise wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:26 pm I understand your point Ivan, but if you look back you will see that I didn't ask people not to post these videos, I only asked that people show a little patience and wait around two weeks before they post or share a full video of a playthrough. I think that is fair.
Yes, it is true that if the creator asks for something, it would be good to respect it, although it is a bit hard to understand why was requested.

On another page, I liked the game, I have never been a fan of Manic Miner and so, actually I never liked it, but this one plays similar but better and easier.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

To be clear - I'm not against walkthrough videos - I actively encourage them, especially when people actually play the game properly and give their opinions, good or bad.

What I am against is people using RZX rollback simply to be the first person to complete a game and post a video, often doing so within 24 hours of the release, not posting opinions or reviews, and doing so for every single game, regardless of how they feel about it. This is because (a) I don't think it requires any great skill or talent, (2) I don't think it benefits anyone except themselves, because they aren't actually interested in the game, they re interested in getting some kind of credit or hits on Youtube.

By asking that people don't publish complete walkthrough videos of the entire game in the first couple of weeks of release, I'm hoping that it gives people a challenge, because if they publish a live walkthrough of them completing the game with NO rzx rewinds, I would 100% approve it.

I know that I'm not the only author that feels this way, and I believe that if this became the standard practice, it would actually be for the benefit of the community. There are many arguments in favour of walkthroughs, many of which Ivan mentioned. None of these are lost by asking people to show a little more respect and patience.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Alessandro »

highrise wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:03 pmI know that I'm not the only author that feels this way
In fact - again - I completely agree with what you just wrote. It's not the "walkthrough" videos I am against; so far I did not object to any of them regarding my games being published, as long as the "at least 1 week after release" rule has been respected. Even if they are made with rollbacks and cheats. After all they can be useful to show other players who don't want to cheat (hopefully) how to negotiate a difficult step, for instance.

It's the rush to be the first to complete the game - without any real skill, on top of it all - and show it to everyone else within a day or so after the title has been released that really annoys me. Maybe, as akeley wrote, such behavior is yet another consequence of two bad habits, namely the irrational desire for instant gratification and the urge to seek other people's attention even just for a quarter of an hour, which plague today's post-modern, technologically advanced societies.

This is not the way I want my games to be played - as one piece of junk food to be devoured, swallowed and excreted the following day. I don't want to sound like an old grump, but I design my games carefully and with players in mind, because I have been a player for decades before starting to create something of my own, and take great care in considering players' suggestions for further improvement. You want to complete the game by cheating? Well that's your choice, I for one wouldn't do it - I resorted to rollback very rarely, for instance for my walkthrough of The Sentinel, because otherwise I would have had to play it continuously for 79 hours, and anyway I tried to stay as close as possible as you would do it back in the day, i.e. taking note of level codes after each playing session. But at least be respectful of all the efforts gone into producing that title and play it for its sake, not because you just want to "put your flag on it". No one is going to award you a medal for that.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

Yes Alessandro, exactly. And as I said, they often have no real regard whatever for the game itself, it could be any game, they just devour it, post the videos and move on to the next one.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

One thing I would hope is that if you put in a two-week embargo, but say that if anyone can finish the game 'live' (i.e playing the game with them in a window so you can see they aren't cheating), it would create a possible scenario where people try to finish the game properly.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by R-Tape »

highrise wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:20 am yes, on the 15th March I made the first public release of the game, and asked nicely that people don't publish walkthroughs using rollback as the game may not be fully complete.

On the 16th March, rollback is published. So it seems that you guys are stuck with this version now.... :)
It looks to me like it was an oversight or misunderstanding, and not a deliberate intent to disrespect the author. I suspect it won't be happening again with your games. I'm sure we can agree that it's no reason to give it the "and now you've spoiled it for everyone" treatment.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

You might be right, I was flippant with my original comment but in my defence I did elaborate.

Also, because of the work i do with AGDx I am actually involved in some capacity with quite a lot of other homebrew games. I know the work that goes into these and time and again I see people racing to make rollbacks videos with little to no regard for the work, no comments or reviews. They simply want to be the first to make videos on Youtube for their own hits. So I decided to make a stand for my own principles and call it out for what it is, i.e taking the P?s?.

It's not a question of spoiling it for everyone. It's a question of reconsidering exactly how I distribute the work in the future because although I am happy to do work for myself that I enjoy, share it with people who appreciate it, and help others do the same in a supportive, holistic way, I think I need to consider that (1) there are people who take this model for granted and expect to just take what they want and give nothing back, and (2) I am not willing to accept that this is 'just how things are'. I always believe things can be better.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by jetsetdanny »

As the author of the RZX walkthrough which was published on RZX Archive a day after the game's release - and then taken down upon request from the game's author - I would like to make the following points:

I absolutely disagree with any requests by authors not to publish things related to their games - which are permitted by the law - after the games have been released.

I understand that an author can request that an RZX file not be hosted somewhere, because an RZX file is also a game file - someone can download it, stop the playback and play the game. That's comprehensible and I *think* an author could even try to enforce such a request legally, since hosting an RZX file might be considered infringing upon their intellectual property rights.

However, I don't believe a video of a game falls into the same category - I don't think it's protected by law the same way the original product is (or a version thereof, like an RZX walkthrough). A video is not a game, one cannot use it to play the game.

Now, if someone asks that a video is not made of a released game - well, you could equally ask: Please don't write any reviews of it for the first two weeks after the release, or don't publish any screenshots. Would that be a reasonable request? No, it wouldn't.

People interested in the ZX Spectrum are mostly adults. They make conscious choices. If a video is available to watch how a game can be completed, nobody has to watch it. If someone enjoys playing games without any help, solving all the puzzles and overcoming obstacles all by themselves - that's fine, they're perfectly entitled and able to do it. Nobody forces them to watch a published video of the walkthrough. However, why should it bother them that there is a video published and that someone else - who makes a different choice and prefers to play the game using some assistance or just watch it without playing it - it's an equally valid choice! - may watch it if they choose to?

Preventing adult, intelligent people from doing things they choose to do is limiting their freedom. It is something totalitarian regimes like to do, to limit or eliminate individual choices. It should not be happening in the free world.

The argument about waiting for 2 weeks before making the video is also lame. The RZX recording I made - and the video made from it - illustrate the game as it is now. It's 100% accurate and up-to-date. There is no reason to say it shouldn't be there or pull it off from a website.

If you release a newer version of the game, Allan, I *will* record a new RZX walkthrough of it. In fact, if you do it several times and release several new versions of the game - I *will* record a new RZX walkthrough of each version, every time you update the game. In this sense, there is nothing to stop you from releasing new versions.

However, to release a game and say: 'Please don't make a video of it yet, because I may still change it!' is unreasonable to me. If you don't want people to show their completion of the game, don't release it yet! Or at least call it a beta release, or something, emphasise that it is not a finished product. Well, "The Perils of Willy" on https://itch.io/ *is* a finished product and you are selling it - or, to be exact, making it possible for anyone interested to download it for free, but also asking for donations. From this point of view, it may be the first version of the product, but it *is* a gamma-released product - otherwise you shouldn't be asking money for it. And if it is a released product, then why should people not record their completion of it - just because you think it's not a good idea?

I will not go into the other aspects of this subject - like the visibility RZX walkthroughs and videos give to a game - because they've been discussed on this thread before and, frankly, are quite obvious.

Since my RZX walkthrough has been taken down from the RZX Archive, I am going to make a video of it and put it online elsewhere, for the sake of freedom of choice and common sense.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by jetsetdanny »

highrise wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm Also, because of the work i do with AGDx I am actually involved in some capacity with quite a lot of other homebrew games. I know the work that goes into these and time
I also know the work and time that goes into homebrew games, because I have spent a good part of my spare time in the last sixteen years designing them. And I would *never* ask anyone to refrain from recording a game of mine, or a project I worked on. In fact, I was happy to see recordings of my games published online, even though their quality - from the point of view of the efficiency and elegance of completing the game - was far from my standards. I would *never* think of asking someone to take them down from a website. I feel flattered that someone actually took the time and effort to record them.

In fact, *you* could easily feel flattered - rather than disappointed - that someone recorded your game immediately after it was released. It's just the way you look at it.

highrise wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm and again I see people racing to make rollbacks videos with little to no regard for the work, no comments or reviews.
Why "racing" is such a problem for you? If something is released, why should anyone wait to complete the game and record the way it's done? How long should someone wait? A day? A week? Two weeks? A month? A year? Oh, you did mention two weeks. But why exactly two weeks? Why not ask people to wait for two months, or two years? Any period of "embargo" on recording the game you might try to impose is entirely arbitrary. I don't believe members of the community should depend on the whims of the authors, who may actually have very different views on the subject. You say two weeks, but another author may say two months, and another one - two years. There is no objective reason for setting any particular "no recording" period. The only reasonable approach is that there is no such period at all - once a game is released, it may be recorded at any time.

Furthermore, are you implying that someone should write some comments or a review in order to be able to record a walkthrough of someone else's game? That writing comments or reviews "justifies" the person who makes the recording, or gives them the right to make a recording, because it shows "regard" for the authors' work? Sorry, but this is just ridiculous.

highrise wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm They simply want to be the first to make videos on Youtube for their own hits.
I do *not* have a video channel on YouTube and I do not care about any hits. I made the RZX recording of your game because I love JSW games and I considered it the right thing to do and I sent it to RZX Archive as I always do. I had no qualms about it and I don't see any problem with *at all*.

The RZX Archive did not make a video of it - out of respect for your opinion expressed on the game's homepage - but *only* hosted the RZX file (and then took it down when you asked them to). The Archive *did not* have any hits on YouTube from the walkthrough of your game, because they did not make a video of it.

Having said that, I am perfectly happy for the RZX Achive to have as many hits on YouTube as they can possibly get! They are doing a wonderful job and deserve every success!

highrise wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm It's not a question of spoiling it for everyone.
Of course not. It's obvious that whoever doesn't want to watch the recording, they don't have to do it. People can choose whether they want to use a spoiler or not. It's their choice. Nobody should take the freedom of making this choice away from them by banning the videos!

highrise wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm It's a question of reconsidering exactly how I distribute the work in the future because although I am happy to do work for myself that I enjoy, share it with people who appreciate it,
I *do* appreciate your work. The fact that I recorded an RZX walkthrough of it - as soon as I could, prioritising it over other things I had to do at that time - bears testimony to it.

highrise wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm and help others do the same in a supportive, holistic way
If "holistic" means to you "refraining from recording an RZX walkthrough for two weeks if I ask them to", then this is definitely not the true meaning of the word.

highrise wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm , I think I need to consider that (1) there are people who take this model for granted and expect to just take what they want and give nothing back,
I did give you something back - a nice, smooth RZX walkthrough of your game. You don't seem to appreciate it, though...

highrise wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm and (2) I am not willing to accept that this is 'just how things are'. I always believe things can be better.
Yes, things can be better if choices - like whether to watch a video recording of the game's completion or not - are made available to people freely, without an unreasonable interference from the games' authors.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

ok, well let me respond to some of these points. Before I say anything else, of course it is only my opinion. There is not a single suggestion of me telling people what to do - only of me asking them, and explaining my reasons. People have different opinions to mine and I respect that.

I also want to again make the point that I did not intend to single out this individual case when I expressed my opinion. i was talking about the practice in general. As I already said, my remark was flippant, I apologised for it, and clarified my position.

And to be clear - the reason I asked for the RZX to be removed is because unfortunately this method of recording includes a full version of the game, which I wish to only be available through my itch page so that I can monitor the downloads AND make changes to the zip file with bugfixes and updates. It's especially important that this happens in the first two weeks, because this is the time that I usually get bug reports and feedback. It's not a random, arbitrary amount of time, it's based on experience.

As I have said a number of times now. I do not have any issue with anyone recording the games. I have an issue with people using the rollback method to complete games. It's like playing poker but you are allowed to go back if you lose your money and bet again. In my opinion this goes completely against the spirit of the game, and it is especially annoying when it is done on the same day as the release. As I said, I'm not alone in that view, many authors have expressed the same opinion. If you are able to complete the game within the rules of the game, I would 100% welcome it. This is just my opinion, but it is dovetails well with the other reason for asking that such videos are not made in the first two weeks.

Furthermore, I am always flattered that people like to play my games. However, I don't feel flattered when people record videos of every single game that is released, make no observations or reviews of the games, and simply post the videos on Youtube. I am not singling anyone out here, I am speaking about this practice in general.

These are just my opinions. I don't have the authority to dictate what people do with games when they are released, any more than I have the authority to tell people they can't go out and buy a dozen packets of toilet roll. But I do have the right to disapprove of it, and I have the right to reconsider how I publish games, particularly when it seems I am portrayed as some kind of villain for wanting to control the distribution of my work in a way that ensures quality control (which is my right), and for believing that people should try to complete the games in an honourable way (which is just my opinion).
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

Reading back through the thread, I do want to stress again that this is a debate I have been having outside of this forum for a week or so and I recognise that some of my comments appear to have been specifically directed at this rzx recording. This was not my intention at all. In my defence, the original comment by the way did have a smiley face next to it! At that point it wasn't meant as an entirely serious comment.

I admit however that I do have a beef with the recent trend for some Youtube channels to take every single game that comes out, use rollback to quickly complete the game within a day of release, then post a video of that with no creative input in the form of a review. They do this with every single game and it's clearly just a way to get clicks. I am still of the opinion that such a practice is cheap and lazy, and doesn't really contribute anything to the community. Just my view of course.

But to be clear, I don't believe that this recent RZX recording was done in that spirit, and it's unfortunate that this impression was formed. We are all a little more on edge than is probably good for us in the current climate, so hopefully we can put it behind us.

Peace and good health to all.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by jetsetdanny »

Rev_Stuart_Campbell wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:11 am
jetsetdanny wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:12 pm However, I don't believe a video of a game falls into the same category - I don't think it's protected by law the same way the original product is (or a version thereof, like an RZX walkthrough). A video is not a game, one cannot use it to play the game.

Since my RZX walkthrough has been taken down from the RZX Archive, I am going to make a video of it and put it online elsewhere, for the sake of freedom of choice and common sense.
Rev_Stuart_Campbell wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:11 am I'm not at all sure your legal point is correct. Someone automatically owns copyright in their work, and in "derivative works" from it, which a playthrough video definitely is.
Well, when I put the video online - at the time of my choosing - you will be able to test the legal situation by trying to force me to take it down. Oh, wait a minute! - but you are not the game's author, so you don't have any right to it, do you?

Rev_Stuart_Campbell wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:11 am However, nobody's actually saying you're a criminal.
Gosh, what a relief! I am SOOO grateful for this opinion of yours, Reverend! You called me an arsehole, but you must truly be a holy man yourself!

Rev_Stuart_Campbell wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:11 am They'e saying you're a bit of an arsehole, and having read your posts I'd say the evidence is conclusive.
It didn't take you long to solve that one! Why don't you change your nickname to Sherlock_Holmes?

Rev_Stuart_Campbell wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:11 am You're risking further development of this and other games, potentially depriving everyone of a lot of joy, and for what?
Wow, now you've really scared me! I didn't know I had such powers, it's terrifying! Depriving *everyone* of joy, like the coronavirus...

Do you really think someone would stop developing games only because someone else recorded a video of a walkthrough and made it available to the public? That would be so tragic... and what a sign of emotional maturity!

Rev_Stuart_Campbell wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:11 am Because you couldn't just wait a couple of poxy weeks?
I would not wait only because *you* think I should, I can assure you of that.
Website: JSW Central
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