Re: The Perils of Willy
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:20 pm
It is, indeed, an interesting debate, but please (to everyone) keep insults away from here
The community forum for all Sinclair users
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/forums/
I agree. Let’s move it in a direction that will serve everyone better!
I agree with this as well. Personally, I don’t have a business to worry about, but I have other reasons to worry about COVID-19. I would think that most people are more on the edge than usual these days, and that includes myself.
It did, kind of. Let me elaborate:highrise wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:40 am It's clear to me that Danny felt that I was aiming my criticism directly at him. Looking back at the thread, I can understand why that was, and I can understand why he would react in that way, especially since his intentions were only to be helpful. It must have felt like a slap in the face
I do not consider you a villain . However, please note that I equally don’t want to be portrayed as some kind of villain for wanting to produce quality RZX recordings which may be useful to people and which increase the visibility of MM and JSW games.highrise wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:17 am it seems I am portrayed as some kind of villain for wanting to control the distribution of my work in a way that ensures quality control (which is my right), and for believing that people should try to complete the games in an honourable way (which is just my opinion).
I understand that. I can only say that I would suggest keeping a game explicitly as a beta release until you are sure there are no more bugs in it. I would not record an RZX recording of a beta release for public consumption (I *would* record a playtest for you, if you asked me to) and I would not add such a game to JSW Central, which is, by its mission statement, for gamma-released games only.highrise wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:40 am So to be clear, I asked (not ordered!) people not to publish videos of them completing the game using rollbacks in the first couple of weeks for the following reasons:
1) Despite my best efforts, little bugs can crop up. These are usually only found once the game is in the wild and played by a much wider audience. In addition I was thinking about maybe adding some new levels.
I understand your intentions, but I would beg to disagree here, to a certain extent, at least.
The question of “honour” has cropped up more than once in the posts in this thread, I believe.
With the kind of games I described above, these *are* the rules of the game: you’ve *got to* use either some POKEs or Rollback, or you just won’t be able to complete them.
You say you don' think completing a game using Rollback requires any great skill or talent. I don't know about that, but I can say that *at times* it requires a lot of hard work.highrise wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:03 pm What I am against is people using RZX rollback simply to be the first person to complete a game and post a video, often doing so within 24 hours of the release, not posting opinions or reviews, and doing so for every single game, regardless of how they feel about it. This is because (a) I don't think it requires any great skill or talent
It may be that you are talking about things beyond my experience. The only YouTube channel I know that regularly presents full walkthroughs of the Spectrum games is the one run by the RZX Archive (there is another one – zxspectrumgames4 – but, as I understand, it used to make videos of RZX recordings published on the RZX Archive, it did not have its own “supply” of RZX recordings, and stopped doing this after being admonished for using someone else's work).
This touches upon an interesting subject of expectations – what do authors expect from players?highrise wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:03 pm What I am against is people using RZX rollback simply to be the first person to complete a game and post a video, often doing so within 24 hours of the release, not posting opinions or reviews, and doing so for every single game, regardless of how they feel about it. This is because (a) I don't think it requires any great skill or talent, (2) I don't think it benefits anyone except themselves, because they aren't actually interested in the game, they re interested in getting some kind of credit or hits on Youtube.
Well, this is again a question of expectations and, even more, of your motivation to make games. From what you wrote, it looks like you make games *for people* AND expect them to enjoy them the way you imagine they should, i.e. slowly, taking their time.highrise wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:51 pm And if someone spends hours cooking you a delicious meal, is it wrong for them to suggest you take your time over it? If you decide to just wolf it down like dog food, that is your right - but it's not exactly going to encourage them to cook for you again is it? Especially if you decide to film that and put it on Youtube.
Why does it bother you that they complete the game quickly? It’s their choice. They could have chosen to play the game “the hard way”, they chose the easy way. Appreciate the fact that they played the game at all, they didn’t have to!Alessandro wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:02 pmhighrise wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:04 pm It's not nice to see that after months of working at a game and fine tuning it before release, people cheat by using rollback and snapshots and complete it almost soon after it has been released. It feels lazy and cheap to me. Couldn't these users at least try if they can complete it for a week or so before resorting to cheats?
Whether this urge is “irrational” or not, and whether their sense of self-gratification is “foolish”, is a matter of subjective opinion. Apparently, this urge and this gratification serve some purpose for those who do it; otherwise they wouldn’t be doing it. Why does it annoy you so much, though?Alessandro wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:39 pm I too get annoyed by this irrational urge to be the first to swallow a new game and put the results on YouTube, and what's worse, for a foolish sense of self-gratification.
I won’t say that what you described is not the spirit of retrogaming, but I would say there are more spirits and more definitions of retrogaming than one. As mentioned above, I spent countless hours working on RZX-recording JSW games that took weeks to record properly, even with Rollback. The “arrival” did matter, I will not deny this – but what a “travel” it was, each time!Alessandro wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:39 pm If there is something that can be defined as the "spirit of retrogaming", in my personal opinion, it is the challenge, the beauty of being put to the test and finishing without any external aid. It is not so much the "arrival" that matters; rather, it is the "travel", how you manage to get to the end.
No, I actually didn’t perceive you as either, and I know you are not. I just think we have different opinions on some things we feel strongly about. I hope we will be able to find some mutually acceptable middle ground – and I am looking forward to it .
If you are riled about my reply, it's because the truth of what I wrote is hurting you
You are entitled to this opinion.
You can't be sure he won't . And having to wait for two weeks is a draconian rule for someone who wants to do something immediately!
The problem is the original request on the author's website - as it is still formulated over there - is NOT "for two weeks", it is "for now".akeley wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm but this whole brohuaha is about a really mild request to simply not publish a specific thing for a couple of weeks. I mean - 2 weeks! Even if you think it's lame, unreasonable, or whatever, you could just go along with it for this really short period of time, out of simple respect for the author. It's something those aforementioned "adult, intelligent people" should understand without much fuss.
That’s just your opinion. You are entitled to have it.
It is not a fallacy. Exercise self-control! If you know there are some heinous websites out there which are showing videos of newly-released Spectrum games, and if you realise you may be tempted to click on them which will lead you to tick something off as “done” – DON’T EVER VISIT THEM! This may save your Spectrum soul from this filth!akeley wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm I have yet to hear about a serious review which gives away every plot point and ending. And the "nobody has to watch it" thing is a fallacy - we all know that once it's out there people are very likely to just click through it on the first watch and so are more likely to tick the thing off as "done". Why is it so hard to understand that this is why the "2 weeks" grace period might matter to the author?
I find it curious that you find it amusing. If the recording of someone completing a simple platformer should not be called a “walkthrough” – then what should it be called? I am asking seriously, I would like to know what word you would use for it.
See – you said “at some point in time”, you didn't say “two weeks after the release”! This only proves the point about "for now" I made above.
Freedom of speech may be a grandiose concept, but it is also a very practical and simple one (just like some urges). And it should be defended vigorously when the first dark clouds start to gather over it on the Spectrum screen!
Well, I think I can be entitled to my own opinions, especially when they are motivated, and so far I think I have not been lacking in motivations...jetsetdanny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:54 pmWhether this urge is “irrational” or not, and whether their sense of self-gratification is “foolish”, is a matter of subjective opinion.
I think I had explained it in my previous posts, but anyway... I am annoyed by the fact that someone plays - or seems to play - my games not because they appreciate them for themselves, but just to add another "hit" to a sort of collection. I don't believe this is a form of appreciaton for what I do. Just "be the first, put your flag on it and show it off on YouTube within a day or so" is all that matters. That's why I think such behavior is irrational and foolish, and I do not like it.jetsetdanny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:54 pmApparently, this urge and this gratification serve some purpose for those who do it; otherwise they wouldn’t be doing it. Why does it annoy you so much, though?
I think you are jumping too quickly to conclusions here. I never wrote I despise people who do this, I get annoyed by this attitude.jetsetdanny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:54 pmJudging by your opinions, you look down on this kind of activity (“swallowing” a new game and putting the results on YouTube). Consequently, I understand you don’t have a particularly high opinion of the people who do these things.
Excessive simplification often leads to misundertandings. I would never refer to someone playing games by cheating just to be the first to do it and putting videos on YouTube in the shortest possible time after release as a "loser", a word that - as far as I know since I am not a native English speaker - has a precise meaning, which is defined by the Cambridge Dictionary as "a person or team that does not win a game or competition", "a person who is always unsuccessful at everything they do", "a person that you have no respect for" etc. None of the above refers to the persons; again, I am criticizing an attitude.jetsetdanny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:54 pmWhy do you care about what they do, then? Let’s call them – for the sake of discussion and simplicity only – “losers”.
Aye but if that message is spread into a 10 min youtube video, titled "Titanic walkthrough", then I wouldn't call it a spoiler. Anyone watching it would have a decent idea of what to expect.
Where's the bit in there that mentions about "especially if it involves no critical analysis or discussion."?
It was taken down because the recording enabled the full download of the game to be available in a format that was not approved. The game is freely available for anyone to download from the itch.io page.My walkthrough of "The Perils of Willy" was taken down from a website, because someone didn't like the fact that it was there.
The walkthrough I recorded was not of some experimental, development or beta version of a computer program. It was of a publicly released product which the author is encouraging people to pay for. I paid for it. I purchased it.
My walkthrough was denied to the public, because someone didn't like the fact that it was available.
No, it isn't, it's denial of distibution of something which is available elsewhere.This is censorship. This is what happens in totalitarian regimes. Some books are never published, because someone doesn't want them to be available to the public. Some movies are never screened, because someone does not allow them to be made public. Things are taken down from websites, because someone doesn't like them and decides they shouldn't be there.
Absolutely correct. But can you photocopy and publish that book? No, you can't. Is that censorship? no, it isn't.When I go to a bookstore and buy a book, I can read it any way I want. The author will not be telling me how to read it. I can read it slowly and thoroughly, I can skim-read it or scan it, I can read just one chapter if I want, or half a chapter. I may not read it at all if I decide it’s not worth it. It is my choice.
Absolutely correct. But again, you can't publish yourself doing that if it includes content that you did not create yourself. You can only do that with the consent of the author.When I buy a computer game, I can play it any way I want. The author will not be telling me how to play it. I can play it as is, I can use POKEs or Rollback, I can save and reload snapshots. I can play it for ten hours or for ten minutes. I may not play it at all if I decide it’s not worth it. It is my choice.
Absolutely incorrect. I asked that full walkthrough recordings not be published in the first two weeks of the game being out.My recording was denied to the public because the author of this particular game (or, to be exact: remake of another author's game) wants to enforce – by banning videos – a vision he has of how his games should be enjoyed by the players. He is ready to deny the public the freedom of choice whether or not to watch – before, during, after or without playing the game – a recording of how the game can be completed in order to enforce his fantasies of what should be happening once people have purchased his game – how they should be struggling to complete the consecutive levels in an “honourable” way, comment and write reviews to express their respect for him and his effort while he would be basking in the true spirit of retrogaming.
You don't own "The Perils of Willy", Allen. You don't own the title, you don't own the character and you don't own the screen layouts if they are the same as in the original game. The IP rights holder who has the rights to the original game - whoever it is today - owns these things.
For all practical purposes, you forced the RZX Archive not to make my recording of the game available to the public.highrise wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:55 am Before I answer that, I want to make the very clear point that I am producing work which anyone can use for free, and I'm not 'telling' anyone what to do. The only thing I did was to ask that people don't publish the game being played in its entirety for the first few weeks. I wasn't forcing anyone to do anything
It does. If you don't own the game fully, you can't usurp full rights to it, like being able to deny people the right to post videos.
You don't have any rights to the Manic Miner code. The IP rights holder who is the legal heir of the Software Projects does. I suspect it may be the same entity that holds the rights to "The Perils of Willy".highrise wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:55 am However, if I did have to defend it I would point out the following:
- no code from the Vic-20 game was used in the making of this game.
- the game is based on a reverse engineered version of the Manic Miner code. It does not use original source code, and is not a hack of any original code.
The mechanics may be different, but if the visual aspect and layout are the same or very similar, the IP rights holder could still claim you infringed them.
This is not entirely correct. Every other mod of MM and JSW - including those made by me - can be considered to be infringing the IP rights related to the game engine or parts thereof, because they all use at least parts of the original game engines (which defines them as MM and JSW games for me).highrise wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:55 am I would argue therefore that the only issue would be the question of IP. It is possible that using the title of the game, and the use of the character may infringe in that instance. If this is the case however, this would not only apply to this game, but to every other mod of Manic Miner or Jet Set Willy, including the ones made by Danny.
You did not hesitate to use the nuclear option to have my walkthrough removed. And, on your website, your are not asking people not to post complete walkthroughs of your remake of "The Perils of Willy" for two weeks: you are asking people not to post full 'walkthrough' videos "for now". You might want to change that if it is indeed a "two-week rule" you are trying to impose in the spirit of censorship.
Yes, this is correct, but a video was not made of my walkthrough and was not uploaded on the RZX Archive because you requested that this should not be done.highrise wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:15 pmIt was taken down because the recording enabled the full download of the game to be available in a format that was not approved. The game is freely available for anyone to download from the itch.io pageMy walkthrough of "The Perils of Willy" was taken down from a website, because someone didn't like the fact that it was there.
The walkthrough I recorded was not of some experimental, development or beta version of a computer program. It was of a publicly released product which the author is encouraging people to pay for. I paid for it. I purchased it.
My walkthrough was denied to the public, because someone didn't like the fact that it was available.
Where is a video of my walkthrough available online?highrise wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:15 pmNo, it isn't, it's denial of distibution of something which is available elsewhere.This is censorship. This is what happens in totalitarian regimes. Some books are never published, because someone doesn't want them to be available to the public. Some movies are never screened, because someone does not allow them to be made public. Things are taken down from websites, because someone doesn't like them and decides they shouldn't be there.
A video of my walkthrough would not be a copy of your game file.highrise wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:15 pmAbsolutely correct. But can you photocopy and publish that book? No, you can't. Is that censorship? no, it isn't.When I go to a bookstore and buy a book, I can read it any way I want. The author will not be telling me how to read it. I can read it slowly and thoroughly, I can skim-read it or scan it, I can read just one chapter if I want, or half a chapter. I may not read it at all if I decide it’s not worth it. It is my choice.
Making an RZX recording is creating content. The way I play the game is unique, someone else would not have recorded it exactly in the same way.highrise wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:15 pmAbsolutely correct. But again, you can't publish yourself doing that if it includes content that you did not create yourself. You can only do that with the consent of the author.When I buy a computer game, I can play it any way I want. The author will not be telling me how to play it. I can play it as is, I can use POKEs or Rollback, I can save and reload snapshots. I can play it for ten hours or for ten minutes. I may not play it at all if I decide it’s not worth it. It is my choice.
I regard blocking videos of walkthroughs from being posted in order to enforce one's fantasies of how players should enjoy one's game as unreasonable. That's all there is to it.