New demo: Pushbot

People are still making stuff for the Sinclair related machines. Tell us about new games and other software that runs on the Spectrum, ZX80/ZX81, Pentagon and Next.
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R-Tape
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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Joefish wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:43 pm Level 3 is quite easy!
Possibly needs the levels to be re-ordered for increasing difficulty.
Spud wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:58 pm I just did 4! It was easier than level 1.
I think level 1 might be slightly out of place, but I think the rest are in order of difficulty. I think.

I've completed them all at least once! :-p
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Ersh
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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Nice multi coloured graphics! I really enjoy the size of the puzzles, being smaller, they don't feel all that overwhelming. Only had time to complete 2 levels, will play more this evening. Great job!
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Joefish
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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I think we can all agree it's batshit mental. Or a bit tricky.
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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It's hard!

I reached level 10 and gave up. It's impossible!
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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Lovely little game, thanks!
It's amazing that these tiny levels seem impossible at first, and then suddenly they are easy.
Well done the people that the people you stole from from.
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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Kweepa wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:36 pm Well done the people that the people you stole from from.
:lol:
Website: Tardis Remakes / Mostly remakes of Arcade and ZX Spectrum games.
My games for the Spectrum: Dingo, The Speccies, The Speccies 2, Vallation & Sqij.
Twitter: Sokurah
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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Damn, I missed the second "stole" between the "from"s :(
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R-Tape
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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Kweepa wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:06 am Damn, I missed the second "stole" between the "from"s :(
Do you mean?
Well done the people that the people you stole from stole from.
In which case you are welcome!
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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Well done the people that the people you stole from stole from.
That's too deep for me :D

But I guess it's something about borrowing levels from other games which is absolutely okay as long as you are honest with it.
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R-Tape
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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Ralf wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:42 am
Well done the people that the people you stole from stole from.
That's too deep for me :D

But I guess it's something about borrowing levels from other games which is absolutely okay as long as you are honest with it.
Yep, and if it transpires that Aymeric du Peloux stole his levels off someone else that sentence will make my head explode!

I think it might be:
Well done the people that the people that the people you stole from stole from stole from.
***DISCLAIMER - THIS IS HYPOTHETICAL, AYMERIC DU PELOUX DID NOT, REPEAT NOT, STEAL HIS LEVELS!***

It's a reminder that I do need to add a readme.txt to the downloads page, and a message at the start of the game.

I'll just need to work out where each level came from first... :shock:
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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Well it's a PSPACE-complete problem so stands to reason its going to be a tough cookie. :lol:

http://weetu.net/Timo-Virkkala-Solving- ... Thesis.pdf
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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R-Tape wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:03 amI'll just need to work out where each level came from first... :shock:
Satan's armpit. :lol:
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

Post by Joefish »

Actually these smaller ones can be easier to solve methodically, since the decision trees aren't all that extensive. There are certain obvious moves at the start that turn out not to work, but if you look again often you only have a choice of one or two possible moves from any position, so at the point where you do have a choice, you simply try the less-obvious option and see what happens.
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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Joefish wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:39 pm Actually these smaller ones can be easier to solve methodically, since the decision trees aren't all that extensive. There are certain obvious moves at the start that turn out not to work, but if you look again often you only have a choice of one or two possible moves from any position, so at the point where you do have a choice, you simply try the less-obvious option and see what happens.
I'd be interested to know what you make of level 26. It's one of these cases but I was totally blind to the move that opened the door, I spent a whole afternoon trying to do it (as I did a few years ago with SokobOne and forgot the trick). I wonder if a different set of eyes finds it quite straightforward.
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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Nomad wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:29 pm Well it's a PSPACE-complete problem so stands to reason its going to be a tough cookie. :lol:

http://weetu.net/Timo-Virkkala-Solving- ... Thesis.pdf
I'm sure it's very normal for people with a maths/computer science background, but I love the fact that people do professional research into things like this. If you type 'Sokoban' into the web of science it brings up all manner of interesting stuff.

Another great one is the Sokoban level generator paper, I even wondered if it could be implemented on the Speccy - I think Einar tried and decided it was a no go.
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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Since it took minutes on a 2011 pc to generate non-trivial levels, the time between levels might be rather painful...
I'm still stuck on level 10. No need for random levels yet :)
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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Kweepa wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:49 pm Since it took minutes on a 2011 pc to generate non-trivial levels, the time between levels might be rather painful...
Easy solution - use compiled BASIC.
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

Post by pavero »

Can you please add a joystick support to the full version of the game? ;-)
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Einar Saukas
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

Post by Einar Saukas »

pavero wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:39 pm Can you please add a joystick support to the full version of the game? ;-)
May I mention how easy it is to implement multiple joystick support using JOY? Now with proper coding instructions:

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/zxdb/si ... 05/JOY.txt
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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I'm up to Level 23. :) 13 to 16 felt really tricky but then I breezed through 17 to 21, Level 22 was a bit harder again. Never bothered with Sokoban before because I've seen some huge levels and I haven't the patience for that. This is perfect, bite-sized puzzles that takes 1-7 minutes to figure out.

Full game pwease.
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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R-Tape wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:59 pmAnother great one is the Sokoban level generator paper
This is a very good paper on the subject. But if you think hard enough, you can figure out many further optimizations that they have missed :)

R-Tape wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:59 pmI even wondered if it could be implemented on the Speccy - I think Einar tried and decided it was a no go.
I'm a big fan of Sokoban, and implemented my own level generator and optimal solver in Java years ago. These processes are inerently memory hungry, thus impractical for Spectrum except for solving very straightforward levels like Joefish described.
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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I don't see why the generator is inherently memory intensive. You could easily generate a floor plan, create a solved state, then move the robot around and pull blocks randomly.
...You could hash the crate positions and keep them in a stack to ensure that you don't revisit states.
...and robot positions...
...and backtrack to a previous crate pull if you hit a deadend...
I'm beginning to see why the generator is memory intensive!
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Einar Saukas
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

Post by Einar Saukas »

Exactly.

Even using quite a few more optimizations than the ones mentioned in papers, the number of combinations still explode too rapidly. So it's not viable to traverse the tree of possibilities without keeping track of already analyzed positions.
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

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pavero wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:39 pm Can you please add a joystick support to the full version of the game? ;-)
Yep, will do. Joysticks are more in demand than I realised. Can I ask how are you playing your games? PC with joystick or real hardware?
Ersh wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:51 pm I'm up to Level 23. :) 13 to 16 felt really tricky but then I breezed through 17 to 21, Level 22 was a bit harder again. Never bothered with Sokoban before because I've seen some huge levels and I haven't the patience for that. This is perfect, bite-sized puzzles that takes 1-7 minutes to figure out.

Full game pwease.
7 minutes is faster than me. I graded them as easy, medium, medium/hard, and hard. Interested to know how you fare with hard, the last 4 or so.

There's been more interest than I expected in Pushbot, I'm more likely to return to it. It needs smooth movement, an undo function, joystick, sound, more polish. I enjoy making my own Sokoban levels but it'd be impossible to improve on these ones.
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Ersh
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Re: New demo: Pushbot

Post by Ersh »

Completed it! :) Managed to beat Level 23 in around a minute or two but the remaining levels took me quite some time to get through, had the most problems with Level 25, think I spent over 20 minutes on that one. Such an addictive game and the well defined graphics works extremely well here. More please. :)
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