New demo: Pushbot
Re: New demo: Pushbot
Well it's a PSPACE-complete problem so stands to reason its going to be a tough cookie.
http://weetu.net/Timo-Virkkala-Solving- ... Thesis.pdf
http://weetu.net/Timo-Virkkala-Solving- ... Thesis.pdf
Re: New demo: Pushbot
Satan's armpit.
Re: New demo: Pushbot
Actually these smaller ones can be easier to solve methodically, since the decision trees aren't all that extensive. There are certain obvious moves at the start that turn out not to work, but if you look again often you only have a choice of one or two possible moves from any position, so at the point where you do have a choice, you simply try the less-obvious option and see what happens.
Re: New demo: Pushbot
I'd be interested to know what you make of level 26. It's one of these cases but I was totally blind to the move that opened the door, I spent a whole afternoon trying to do it (as I did a few years ago with SokobOne and forgot the trick). I wonder if a different set of eyes finds it quite straightforward.Joefish wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:39 pm Actually these smaller ones can be easier to solve methodically, since the decision trees aren't all that extensive. There are certain obvious moves at the start that turn out not to work, but if you look again often you only have a choice of one or two possible moves from any position, so at the point where you do have a choice, you simply try the less-obvious option and see what happens.
Re: New demo: Pushbot
I'm sure it's very normal for people with a maths/computer science background, but I love the fact that people do professional research into things like this. If you type 'Sokoban' into the web of science it brings up all manner of interesting stuff.Nomad wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:29 pm Well it's a PSPACE-complete problem so stands to reason its going to be a tough cookie.
http://weetu.net/Timo-Virkkala-Solving- ... Thesis.pdf
Another great one is the Sokoban level generator paper, I even wondered if it could be implemented on the Speccy - I think Einar tried and decided it was a no go.
Re: New demo: Pushbot
Since it took minutes on a 2011 pc to generate non-trivial levels, the time between levels might be rather painful...
I'm still stuck on level 10. No need for random levels yet
I'm still stuck on level 10. No need for random levels yet
Re: New demo: Pushbot
Easy solution - use compiled BASIC.
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Re: New demo: Pushbot
Can you please add a joystick support to the full version of the game?
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Re: New demo: Pushbot
May I mention how easy it is to implement multiple joystick support using JOY? Now with proper coding instructions:
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/zxdb/si ... 05/JOY.txt
Re: New demo: Pushbot
I'm up to Level 23. 13 to 16 felt really tricky but then I breezed through 17 to 21, Level 22 was a bit harder again. Never bothered with Sokoban before because I've seen some huge levels and I haven't the patience for that. This is perfect, bite-sized puzzles that takes 1-7 minutes to figure out.
Full game pwease.
Full game pwease.
ZX Soft - ALIEN(BUGFIX) - GB Soft - Demoscene
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Re: New demo: Pushbot
This is a very good paper on the subject. But if you think hard enough, you can figure out many further optimizations that they have missed
I'm a big fan of Sokoban, and implemented my own level generator and optimal solver in Java years ago. These processes are inerently memory hungry, thus impractical for Spectrum except for solving very straightforward levels like Joefish described.
Re: New demo: Pushbot
I don't see why the generator is inherently memory intensive. You could easily generate a floor plan, create a solved state, then move the robot around and pull blocks randomly.
...You could hash the crate positions and keep them in a stack to ensure that you don't revisit states.
...and robot positions...
...and backtrack to a previous crate pull if you hit a deadend...
I'm beginning to see why the generator is memory intensive!
...You could hash the crate positions and keep them in a stack to ensure that you don't revisit states.
...and robot positions...
...and backtrack to a previous crate pull if you hit a deadend...
I'm beginning to see why the generator is memory intensive!
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Re: New demo: Pushbot
Exactly.
Even using quite a few more optimizations than the ones mentioned in papers, the number of combinations still explode too rapidly. So it's not viable to traverse the tree of possibilities without keeping track of already analyzed positions.
Even using quite a few more optimizations than the ones mentioned in papers, the number of combinations still explode too rapidly. So it's not viable to traverse the tree of possibilities without keeping track of already analyzed positions.
Re: New demo: Pushbot
Yep, will do. Joysticks are more in demand than I realised. Can I ask how are you playing your games? PC with joystick or real hardware?
7 minutes is faster than me. I graded them as easy, medium, medium/hard, and hard. Interested to know how you fare with hard, the last 4 or so.Ersh wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:51 pm I'm up to Level 23. 13 to 16 felt really tricky but then I breezed through 17 to 21, Level 22 was a bit harder again. Never bothered with Sokoban before because I've seen some huge levels and I haven't the patience for that. This is perfect, bite-sized puzzles that takes 1-7 minutes to figure out.
Full game pwease.
There's been more interest than I expected in Pushbot, I'm more likely to return to it. It needs smooth movement, an undo function, joystick, sound, more polish. I enjoy making my own Sokoban levels but it'd be impossible to improve on these ones.
Re: New demo: Pushbot
Completed it! Managed to beat Level 23 in around a minute or two but the remaining levels took me quite some time to get through, had the most problems with Level 25, think I spent over 20 minutes on that one. Such an addictive game and the well defined graphics works extremely well here. More please.
ZX Soft - ALIEN(BUGFIX) - GB Soft - Demoscene
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Re: New demo: Pushbot
The answer "C" is correct.
I use Spectaculator in which I can select a sinclair/kempston joystick. Then I use arrow keys on PC keyboard.
Re: New demo: Pushbot
Nice..! I usually struggle with games like this, but I got up to level 10.
Manic Miner-esque difficulty spike at level 1, heheh...
An 'undo' move button might be a nice idea, the key controls seem fairly sensitive and a few times I overrun when pushing and had to reset. Though that's not really an excuse for failing to solve the levels...
Am getting quite familiar with the multi-colour games now, I'm going to forget the Speccy has limitations at this rate...
Manic Miner-esque difficulty spike at level 1, heheh...
An 'undo' move button might be a nice idea, the key controls seem fairly sensitive and a few times I overrun when pushing and had to reset. Though that's not really an excuse for failing to solve the levels...
Am getting quite familiar with the multi-colour games now, I'm going to forget the Speccy has limitations at this rate...
My Speccy site: thirdharmoniser.com
Re: New demo: Pushbot
BASIC or ML
did you use Zeus, ZX ASM?
did you use Zeus, ZX ASM?
Re: New demo: Pushbot
It's written in assembly and it's actually quite advanced code.
No, the Sokoban engine itself isn't that advanced. But this game uses a graphic mode which isn't standard for Spectrum. Maybe you know already that 8 bit computers had some default graphic modes but through advanced tricks in the code people was able to achieve more. It's one of such cases.
No, the Sokoban engine itself isn't that advanced. But this game uses a graphic mode which isn't standard for Spectrum. Maybe you know already that 8 bit computers had some default graphic modes but through advanced tricks in the code people was able to achieve more. It's one of such cases.
Re: New demo: Pushbot
This game is great . I am stuck on level 10 though. It does not seem possible.
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Re: New demo: Pushbot
All levels are possible.