File permissions.

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Joefish
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Re: File permissions.

Post by Joefish »

I never said I was happy with the WoS listing. I complained a long time ago but was still not satisfied with the result. However, I didn't think it worth withdrawing my permission to host the file over. And it doesn't look like anything is going to be improved there in the short term.

I don't like the term 'freeware' being applied to my software. It's an ambiguous definition. I didn't agree to it. It doesn't mean anything definite, but it is easily mistaken for meaning 'completely free'. And because you have applied it to all games that have been distributed for free then it implies they are all distributed under the same terms.

If the only thing you can offer me is a comment then please add a note along the lines of:
"Redistribution of this game is only permitted on sites and services with the explicit consent of the author."

But if you're seeking individual consent for Spectrum Computing to host files then surely you should be displaying such a message for most of your game downloads?

I think that by not clarifying the licence by which you are distributing a game at the point it is offered for download, you are not properly respecting the author's right to control its distribution either. It's a fundamental piece of information about a game which seems to be missing from your database.
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PeterJ
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Re: File permissions.

Post by PeterJ »

We can add your comment as you have requested, but it's not practical to go back over 1,000s of titles.

We are trying to do the right thing and build a free upto date resource for the whole community.
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Einar Saukas
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Re: File permissions.

Post by Einar Saukas »

Please hold on. I will try to answer tonight everything that has been posted here. Sorry but I won't have time to do it right now...

For now, let me just make something clear: One of the main purposes of ZXDB is to help Spectrum authors promote their work. Last thing we want is to get any author upset, thinking that ZXDB-based sites (like SC) are not handling their software properly! So please don't take anything I wrote as refusal to cooperate. So far, I'm merely explaining my points of view and trying to better understand everybody else's. I'm sure we will be able to reach a consensus soon that will make everybody happy!

To be continued...
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Einar Saukas
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Re: File permissions.

Post by Einar Saukas »

OK, it seems there's still a lot of misunderstanding here! Before I reply to specific posts, we better clarify a few things:

* The word "Freeware" means "Free but Copyrighted". It doesn't mean anything else.

* The word "Free" means users can download and play the game without paying for it.

* The word "Copyrighted" means users cannot do whatever they want with it. Instead, they need to check documentation or contact the author to figure out what else they are allowed to do (for instance if anyone else can redistribute it).

* Let me say it again: "Freeware" means "Free but Copyrighted". Nothing more, nothing less. If you don't believe me, please re-read the Wikipedia page.

* A long time ago, when Martijn created WoS, webpages of Spectrum games released for free (but copyrighted) showed "Original price: Free". However many game authors complained to Martijn that perhaps players would assume these were public domain titles, and they could do whatever they wanted with them. To solve this problem, Martijn changed these pages to "Original price: Freeware", because it means "Original price: Free but Copyrighted". At the time, game authors were satisfied.

* To be honest, I'm not really 100% sure that's exactly what happened, I'm just assuming it's the most likely explanation. Since WoS forum searches are broken, we would never be able to locate old discussions to confirm or refute this story... Regardless of it, my point is that ZXDB follows exactly the same criteria that Martijn's original WoS archive adopted for 2 decades about showing prices and licenses. I cannot understand the reason this suddenly became a major problem now!

* Frankly I also have trouble understanding the concern that a word meaning "free but copyrighted" would make people think something is not copyrighted.

Even so, it's my intent to find a good solution for everybody. Let's see...
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Einar Saukas
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Re: File permissions.

Post by Einar Saukas »

Joefish wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:41 pmI don't think it needs even that. Just an extra field listing distribution rights - for all games, not just free ones.
There's already an entire table in ZXDB called "permissions", that stores all details about distribution rights. This is the table that all ZXDB-based sites check to decide if they should distribute a certain file or not. For instance:

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... el_id=6929

Notice that Martijn's WoS worked exactly the same way:

http://www.worldofspectrum.org/infoseek ... J.+Railton$

Except ZXDB is more complete since it stores this information for multiple sites.


Joefish wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:41 pm
  • Author / publisher has specifically denied redistribution.
In this case, the author/publisher page will show permission denied.


Joefish wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:41 pm
  • This site has not obtained permission to distribute.
In this case, the author/publisher page won't show permissions.


Joefish wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:41 pm
  • This site has specific permission to distribute. Re-distribution without permission is not permitted.
In this case, the author/publisher page will show permission for this site only.


Joefish wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:41 pm
  • Author / publisher has given permission for any public re-distribution.
In this case, the author/publisher page will show permission for all free sites.


Joefish wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:41 pm
  • Author / publisher relinquishes all copyright (public domain).
In this case, the game itself will say "Original price: Free (Public Domain)".


Joefish wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:41 pmBut using crude undefined terms like 'freeware' is avoiding the responsibility of preserving the author's copyright.
Again, I cannot see how indicating a game is "free but copyrighted" could be avoiding the responsibility of preserving the author's copyright!


Joefish wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:41 pmWhat I am asking for is the license you have to distribute the game to be presented to the user alongside the download link for the game, so that they are made aware of their rights. They should not have to download it first to find out if they have permission to download it or not.
This situation you described would be impossible. If a file is denied, then SC won't have a link to download it. Therefore users would never be able to download it first, then find out they cannot download it...
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Einar Saukas
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Re: File permissions.

Post by Einar Saukas »

hikoki wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:50 amTerrapins is a recent game on ZXDB. You provide a freemium demo to download and regard the title as commercial with a price.
Out of curiosity, where did you get the information that Terrapins is "freemium"? Because it's not.

It's simply a commercial title for the Spectrum, with a freely available demo. Like thousands of others.


hikoki wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:50 amPlease tell me how one could search for premium titles
There are no "premium" Spectrum titles.


hikoki wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:50 amand donationware titles.
ZXDB doesn't keep track if authors or publishers have "donate" buttons in their sites. Lots of people have "donate" options, many update their websites frequently, it would be almost impossible to keep this information updated. And it would be very unfair if we displayed "donate" requests from a few authors but failed to do the same for others.
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Einar Saukas
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Re: File permissions.

Post by Einar Saukas »

OK, let's try to summarize this discussion. Right now, we have this:
  • Whenever a game is "free but copyrighted", the game page shows "Original price: Free (Freeware license)" (including a link to Wikipedia explaining the meaning of "Freeware"). For instance Buzzsaw.
  • Whenever an author/published told us about distribution permissions, this information is available at the author/published page. For instance joefish.
  • Whenever an author/published thinks there's something else particularly important to mention related to licenses, we can add a comment in the game page. For instance Hobbit128.
  • Of course, each author/publisher is also welcome to include additional details about software licenses in the manual or instructions file. This is the most obvious place a user would look anyway, to find out redistribution conditions and everything else. For instance Buzzsaw's instructions.
[mention]Joefish[/mention] I have just added a comment to Buzzsaw exactly as you requested. It will appear in the next archive update. Is that enough?

Afterwards, if you still feel uncomfortable about the word "Freeware", we can consider changing it to "Original price: Free (but copyrighted!)" instead, or something similar. This is not a change I particularly like, but it's a reasonable tradeoff. Do you think it's necessary?
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Re: File permissions.

Post by hikoki »

Freemium so to speak (can I find demos of commercial programs?), donationware.. the point is if you want to promote and encourage a bit of monetary appreciacion as nowadays is easy to donate. I just suggested a way to find donationware titles more visible as in itch.io. Probably a link to ich.io would suffice if ctain authors have uploaded there work in there.

Instead of a link to the wikipedia, it may be better "free with restrictions" and link 'restrictions' to each author's permissions.
Or just an hyperlinked "See restrictions"
More visibility and easy to find/understand restrictions, avoid confussions, fake excuses, reclamations, etc at when someone downloads any title.. don't tell him Free but force peopele to go to Permissions.
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Einar Saukas
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Re: File permissions.

Post by Einar Saukas »

hikoki wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:14 amProbably a link to ich.io would suffice if ctain authors have uploaded there work in there.
ZXDB already stores links to author's website. In SC, you can see it for instance here.

ZXDB also stores "remote" links to websites containing additional information about games, whenever the website contains worthwhile information besides what's included in the game files. In SC, it appears inside DOWNLOADS section like here.

I think that's enough. Of course people can always suggest more stuff (links, fields, popups, etc) to add, but let's keep in mind there's always a tradeoff. The current webpage is already quite long. If we keep adding more stuff, the webpage will look so "polluted" it will be harder for users to see the information they want.

The same applies to the ZXDB database structure itself. It already contains dozens of tables and hundreds of fields. Although it's technically very easy to add one more field, I always take the time to consider the tradeoffs, otherwise the database will gradually become overly complex. This continuous effort is the price to pay for good system design!
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Re: File permissions.

Post by hikoki »

These kind of links are actually hidden to the impatient user and thus quite invisible ;) (Murphy's law)
The most practical way is a message before showing the download link, not necessarily a popup but a ajaxy text with timer.This is more an idea for Peter's site implementation than for Einar's ZXDB model. Although there can be more sites using ZXDB like the Thomas' one.

Actually I'm going to go over on my site and remove some play and download links, otherwise no one using the site will visit the original sites.

Cheers
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kolbeck
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Re: File permissions.

Post by kolbeck »

hikoki wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:30 pm This is more an idea for Peter's site implementation than for Einar's ZXDB model. Although there can be more sites using ZXDB like the Thomas' one.
And just to be clear zxinfo.dk does not offer downloads of game files, but provide links to eg sc or wos as defined in ZXDB.

/thomas
https://api.zxinfo.dk/v3/ - ZXDB API for developers
zxinfo-file-browser - Cross platform app to manage your files
https://zxinfo.dk - another ZXDB frontend
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Einar Saukas
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Re: File permissions.

Post by Einar Saukas »

hikoki wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:30 pmThese kind of links are actually hidden to the impatient user and thus quite invisible ;) (Murphy's law)
The most practical way is a message before showing the download link, not necessarily a popup but a ajaxy text with timer.This is more an idea for Peter's site implementation than for Einar's ZXDB model. Although there can be more sites using ZXDB like the Thomas' one.
Personally I hate those popups and annoying messages that appear on most file sharing sites whenever you want to download anything. Are you sure that's really what you want?

Martijn's original WoS was probably my favorite site ever, it still amazes me how he managed to put so many game details in minimalist, easily readable pages. And I like the fact that both SC and ZXInfo are following the same principle, except also focused on providing a good interface for mobiles. This is the direction I hope they keep going, with only a few adjusts to accommodate developer concerns such as pointed out by Joefish. Please let's not overdo anything that would pollute their interface unnecessarily!
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PeterJ
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Re: File permissions.

Post by PeterJ »

Einar Saukas wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:17 pm
hikoki wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:30 pmThese kind of links are actually hidden to the impatient user and thus quite invisible ;) (Murphy's law)
The most practical way is a message before showing the download link, not necessarily a popup but a ajaxy text with timer.This is more an idea for Peter's site implementation than for Einar's ZXDB model. Although there can be more sites using ZXDB like the Thomas' one.
Personally I hate those popups and annoying messages that appear on most file sharing sites whenever you want to download anything. Are you sure that's really what you want?

Martijn's original WoS was probably my favorite site ever, it still amazes me how he managed to put so many game details in minimalist, easily readable pages. And I like the fact that both SC and ZXInfo are following the same principle, except also focused on providing a good interface for mobiles. This is the direction I hope they keep going, with only a few adjusts to accommodate developer concerns such as pointed out by Joefish. Please let's not overdo anything that would pollute their interface unnecessarily!
Agreed 100% Popups and similar messages make me want to leave a site as soon as possible. We want to encourage people to visit our site. The information has or is being added to accommodate concerns and is clearly available for people to view. Let's keep a crisp and clean interface as Einar suggests. We don't want to overcomplicate stuff. The focus is on an easily maintained mobile friendly site that fits the majority of users needs.
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Re: File permissions.

Post by hikoki »

I just suggest a general idea, you have to find the best implementation :)
See an example from the itch.io site. This is my download link for Altair (a donationware game for Spectrum) :
https://jorgicor.itch.io/altair/purchase
There you can see a few information and the actual files to download. The information could show "Permissions" for that game, extracted from ZXDB.
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PeterJ
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Re: File permissions.

Post by PeterJ »

We would not knowingly include download links to this type of software (where the author is seeking financial reward of any type) without the author's permission. In that case we would add the link text in the comments text area. Although where a completely free demo version is available that would be different especially as the example I'm thinking of includes details of how you can buy the full version. If files slip through the net please let us know.

As I say we aim to provide what the majority of users want, but will never please everyone. We do always listen though.. Donationware or whatever it may be called is a very small proportion of published titles, and as I say we would not normally host these files.

You perhaps want to add to that site, the license terms and if you are happy for it to be hosted elsewhere.

Most modern developers of retro homebrew titles want as many people to have access to and play their games and aren't looking for financial rewards. Those developers who think differently (which is of course their right) can ask for anything to be removed.
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Re: File permissions.

Post by hikoki »

I don't say you include the link from above. The donation is optional, you can avoid it an download the files for free. The point i s that you are showed important information right before downloading the files. You could show a last remainder of just a few things like Permissions. This is not a popup but the last important door before getting the files, to remark the most important things for the developer.
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PeterJ
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Re: File permissions.

Post by PeterJ »

As I say we would not provide these types of donationware files for download unless the author gave permission and we would in such cases add text in the comments box (as Einar mentions above) at the authors specific request, as well as links to their website. We have no plans to add any additional functionality such as confirmations or similar as you describe to this site. The author of any title can request text to be added to the comments section and we will do our very best to help.

Authors of commercial or donationware software would need to accept that this is currently how the site works if they wanted their files hosted by us.
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Morkin
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Re: File permissions.

Post by Morkin »

Hang on, a 5 page discussion about copyright, no-one's been banned and the thread hasn't been locked..??

You guys aren't doing this right.. :lol:
My Speccy site: thirdharmoniser.com
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Re: File permissions.

Post by hikoki »

Morkin wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:13 pm Hang on, a 5 page discussion about copyright, no-one's been banned and the thread hasn't been locked..??

You guys aren't doing this right.. :lol:
Thanks Golly neither Joefish nor Hikaru made unintelligible pointer arithmetics out of this. Let's keep our fingers crossed!
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Joefish
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Re: File permissions.

Post by Joefish »

No-one's asking for pop-ups or click-through confirmations. Just clearly display above or next to the game download a note of the license by which YOU are distributing it. At the moment you throw in the game download with the pictures, pokes etc, which frankly doesn't help anyone - half the time you can't tell if there's a game download amongst the files at all! Separate out the game download from the rest of the data, and display the type of license next to it, linking back to the author's permission statement or whatever you have. You should be displaying this for commercial games you have permission to distribute too.

There's a huge majority of people using the internet that think anything they get for free is theirs do do whatever they want with, or must be 'public domain' if it's on a public site. These people are never going to click through links looking for permission for anything. These people need to be constantly reminded that they are wrong, and as a content provider I think you should be helping instead of kidding yourselves with excuses like "Everybody knows what Freeware means" or blaming WoS for what goes on on your site.

Saying 'Freeware License' is at least a start as it reminds people that there is a licence involved. But if you're not reminding people that you take copyright seriously, then you're not helping.
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PeterJ
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Re: File permissions.

Post by PeterJ »

Hi [mention]Joefish[/mention]

Our chosen solution is to allow any author to request text in the comments section, in a similar fashion to the text we will be adding for you. We also offer links to the authors website. We will of course remove any titles at the request of the author if they feel unable to accept the solution we have decided on. We aim to make a solution that is agreeable to the vast majority of our audience, but we will never please everyone. We are very open to suggestions, but can't say yes to everything. I believe we offer more options for authors than other large scale retro computing websites.

Whilst the downloads are stored on our server, the cmments field is stored within ZXDB (which is opensource rather than the alternative closed model) as this is a database driven site. This does mean that any site that uses ZXDB would display the same text if they used this field. Anyone is free to create their own website using ZXDB as it is free and without restriction or condition and is not subject to copyright. So the text should mention SC specifically if appropriate, as your requested comment does.

We are of course very open to discuss this 6 page thread further, but it does take us away from time we could be spending on the development of the site.

It's a good idea about grouping the types of downloads, and we can look into that. Thank you.
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Einar Saukas
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Re: File permissions.

Post by Einar Saukas »

Joefish wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:38 pmNo-one's asking for pop-ups or click-through confirmations. Just clearly display above or next to the game download a note of the license by which YOU are distributing it. At the moment you throw in the game download with the pictures, pokes etc, which frankly doesn't help anyone - half the time you can't tell if there's a game download amongst the files at all!
This is actually a good point!

Perhaps it has more to do with SC instead of ZXDB. Anyway I will chat with Peter and see what can be done about it.
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Guesser
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Re: File permissions.

Post by Guesser »

The distribution permissions given to an individual website clearly don't belong in the ZXDB being distributed. Though that's not to say there's any reason against ZXDB noting where stuff has been released into the public domain, and which companies which have blanket denied distribution etc. (though that is the default anyway if no license information to the contrary).
Trying to store a list of which sites have permission to distribute things within ZXDB seems like completely the wrong way to go about things to me. The sites should store the permissions they've been granted in their own database. (Potentially seeding it from titles that have been confirmed to be PD in ZXDB).
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Re: File permissions.

Post by Ralf »

No-one's asking for pop-ups or click-through confirmations. Just clearly display above or next to the game download a note of the license by which YOU are distributing it. At the moment you throw in the game download with the pictures, pokes etc, which frankly doesn't help anyone - half the time you can't tell if there's a game download amongst the files at all!
Yes, putting the game files together with pokes, maps, screens and so on is not clear at all

It would be much better if there would be two sections:

-game downloads
-additional data
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R-Tape
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Re: File permissions.

Post by R-Tape »

Either way I want some cool icons. Must have the cool icons.
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