Screenshot fixes

Whether it's Mire Mare or a BASIC tape you found in the attic, it needs to be preserved digitally. Post here and experts can help to do so.

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djnzx48
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Re: Site Updates

Post by djnzx48 »

What about the Heavy on the Magick loading screen? Is it supposed to have that "Cracked by Lord French" message at the bottom?
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R-Tape
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by R-Tape »

Probably not! I doubt it was Greg Follis's nom de plume.

Does anyone have an uncracked version we can get a loading screen from?
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by bob_fossil »

I have a .tzx but the issue is that the original turbo loader cycles between a series of panels whilst loading to give the illusion of an animated screen. The guy who cracked the tape has made a composite screen and added his tag at the bottom. If you wanted the full loading screen, you could just blank the bottom two lines out. I have taken .scr files for all the animation stages of the loader (there's 9 in total) if you want to preserve those.
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by R-Tape »

Ah if it's a screen from a crack that is a composite then it's even more wrong.
If you wanted the full loading screen, you could just blank the bottom two lines out.
For shame! Screen doctoring is against ZXDB policy! 3 Hail Marys and a game of SQIJ.

Would this be the correct loading screen then? Can someone check their original bona fide cassette?

Image
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Ast A. Moore
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by Ast A. Moore »

bob_fossil wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:19 am the original turbo loader cycles between a series of panels whilst loading to give the illusion of an animated screen.
Aye. Plus there’s a loading counter.
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by Ast A. Moore »

R-Tape wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:12 am For shame! Screen doctoring is against ZXDB policy!
Heh. Yeah, that SCR format policy will end up biting you, guys, in the fleshy bits. ;)
R-Tape wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:12 amWould this be the correct loading screen then? Can someone check their original bona fide cassette?
This is what the loading process looks like:
Image
Every man should plant a tree, build a house, and write a ZX Spectrum game.

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and zasm Z80 Assembler syntax highlighter.
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by djnzx48 »

It's amusing how these doctored programs end up in the archives in the first place. For ages the only version of JSW I had ever played was the "SAM and JOB cracked this program" version from one of those shovelware CDs.
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by R-Tape »

Thanks Ast, I'm not very familiar with this game.
bob_fossil wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:19 am I have taken .scr files for all the animation stages of the loader (there's 9 in total) if you want to preserve those.
Ta bob.

So I guess this is the way to go?
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by Ast A. Moore »

R-Tape wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:49 am Thanks Ast, I'm not very familiar with this game.
Neither am I, but I keep a fairly extensive TZX archive of classic Spectrum games because many loaders are extremely informative from a programmer’s standpoint. Oftentimes, the loader was the only reason I kept a game.
Every man should plant a tree, build a house, and write a ZX Spectrum game.

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and zasm Z80 Assembler syntax highlighter.
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by Ralf »

I'd say it's a bit crazy to have 9 loading screens for a game.
And what about Technician Ted? Are we going to capture any position of these little walking guys? ;)

In case of Heavy on The Magick personally I would use just one of these combinations, maybe the one which diplays the game title.

And finally yes, if you believed that all games from WOS are 100% recorded from original cassettes, then you are wrong. Yes, people did there an amazing job of creating "perfect tzx" files but there is still a lot of early .tap files are coming from cracks.
Not to say that technically every .tap file which has custom loader replaced is a crack ;)
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by Nomad »

When there loading screen is animated perhaps having a link to a youtube video might be more useful? Or is that wrong-think :lol: Get enough views.. get the Shekels?
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by R-Tape »

Ralf wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:03 am I'd say it's a bit crazy to have 9 loading screens for a game.
And what about Technician Ted? Are we going to capture any position of these little walking guys? ;)
Fair point, though personally I think 9 is somewhere in a fuzzy zone betwen crazy and not crazy. Technician Ted would definitely be the latter.

Maybe it is most sensible to have the first iteration of the animation (as Ralf suggests), the one with 'Heavy on the Magick' at the top left.
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by Nomad »

That's what makes this kind of thing interesting, is the outliers that break policy.

I figured showing a loading screen is supposed to give as best an idea as possible to someone who has never seen the program before what sitting in-front of a TV in the 80s with the tape was like. Sure for most loading screens a static image is going to be perfect but for the animated screens. Especially stuff with subtle stuff going on or multiple changes it starts to break down.

One thing that kind of pulls at the back of my mind is - what if there was data from the raw wav file that didn't get encoded during preservation? We have no idea what people might want to study in the future, so far as I can tell the raw wavs were not retained. (And I can understand why). I would need to look it up but there was a huge issue with this with the Atari preservation of specialized encrypted tape formats.
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by Ralf »

One thing that kind of pulls at the back of my mind is - what if there was data from the raw wav file that didn't get encoded during preservation? We have no idea what people might want to study in the future, so far as I can tell the raw wavs were not retained. (And I can understand why). I would need to look it up but there was a huge issue with this with the Atari preservation of specialized encrypted tape formats.
I can confirm - yes, tzx images don't capture everything.
I have seen cassettes with some tones or music marking start or end of the programs. I have even seen programs with some human voice announcing program title. It's lost when converting to tzx.

But as we said before we need to do always some sanity check. Keeping 10 MB big .wav files instead of 40 kB .tzx files for such effects is probably too big perfectionism.
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by druellan »

Ok. Today I'm a bit sick so, sorry if I'm babbling nonsense but:

Loading screens:

I don't think you need to be so accurate about the loading screens. Removing a pirated version is, of course necessary, but after that, the screen is kind of a quick reference for people that already know the game, so, a static frame is good enough IMO.

Said that, zxinfo.dk has a cute section showing some loading schemes.

Image

This are animated GIFs and they look excellent. There are just a few, but I wold love to have those somewhere on the DB, and perhaps create more in the future.

Pirated copies

I was willing to open a thread about this. I'm from Argentina, pirated copies were rampart here. From completely trashed games, to somehow competent releases that I feel worth preserve:

Image

So. I'm still thinking what to propose about this. I don't want to have this mixed with the legitimate copies, we can P?s? someone, those are illegal after all.
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by Nomad »

I think its sad that its not a accurate representation of the object being preserved. I get why its not done. but will suck for the future researcher trying to document this stuff. To know that it once existed but was cast aside is sad. We can't know the context why someone would look for that information or why it would gain relevancy that we at the moment can't foresee.

if there are 9000 titles say, and each was 10mb were talking 87 gigs ($2.61). That figure is going to look smaller and smaller each decade that passes. I wouldn't say its impossible to do now. What I am saying is it seems that preservation mindsets are stuck in a late 90s thinking of memory cost.
Spoiler
I get the clock can't be turned back and that many of the tapes are no longer available to be archived in this way but for the future it would seem to be a good thing to at least start preserving as much as possible.

The final thing is there are still features of titles that are not understood, encryption techniques, imprecise emulation issues that might eventually come down to information that has not been preserved with regular preservation files. I guess the obvious one is Easter eggs left on the tape as audio data.

The other cool thing would be the difference between pirate cassette, different production runs would become obvious under analysis in a way that in not possible at the moment.
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by richl »

Maybe some of us don't bin their samples after they've converted them to TZXes and maybe they have hard drives rammed to the gills with RARed up samples, just in case they come in handy at some point in the future. Just sayin'... ;)

Also, as much as I try not to mention "that other place" if possible, they seem to have got round the Heavy on the Magick loading screen problem by having it as an animated GIF. Would that be possible here or are they generated as PNG on the fly or something like that?
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by Ast A. Moore »

richl wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:50 pm Would that be possible here or are they generated as PNG on the fly or something like that?
My understanding is that the strive for “authenticity” can sometimes outweigh usefulness, practicality, or representativeness. So, no animated GIFs, I’m afraid. The long, short, and curly of it is that loading screens (and in-game screens) are not necessarily what the user would see on the screen, but rather the 6192 bytes that occupied the emulated display file at the moment of capture. There are some exceptions of course. For example, MLT files are used instead of SCR for capturing some tricky (mostly multicolor) screens. Still, there’s no way to retain the border or some other special effects.

I think it’s best to take ZXDB for what it is—a database, rather than a preservation archive. Some compromises have to be made.
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and zasm Z80 Assembler syntax highlighter.
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by richl »

Ast A. Moore wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:21 pm I think it’s best to take ZXDB for what it is—a database, rather than a preservation archive. Some compromises have to be made.
I agree but aren't the screenshots we're talking about just those that are hosted by Spectrum Computing (i.e. part of the archive here), they're not actually part of zxdb as such... right? By that I mean anyone can set up their own site based on zxdb and choose to do whatever they want with regard to screenshots etc... or have I goofed? I thought the database just holds info on the titles such as author(s), publishers, all that sort of thing; it doesn't have anything to do with specific screenshots, inlays etc. and any archive is just a separate entity that uses zxdb as a sort of index or whatever a better term may be. I might not be explaining myself very well but hopefully you'll get what I mean! :)
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by Ast A. Moore »

richl wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:18 pm I thought the database just holds info on the titles such as author(s), publishers, all that sort of thing; it doesn't have anything to do with specific screenshots, inlays etc. and any archive is just a separate entity that uses zxdb as a sort of index or whatever a better term may be.
Mmm. You might be right in that it works this way internally. I don’t think that’s how it’s meant to be distributed, though. I think it’s meant to be distributed as a whole package. Don’t quote me on that, though.
Every man should plant a tree, build a house, and write a ZX Spectrum game.

Author of A Yankee in Iraq, a 50 fps shoot-’em-up—the first game to utilize the floating bus on the +2A/+3,
and zasm Z80 Assembler syntax highlighter.
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by PeterJ »

Hi, yes the database in this case ZXDB is the structure. It doesn't contain any files, screens or other material. It stores directory paths for files. SC stores those files in the places where ZXDB expects to see them. This is just the same as other sites which use ZXDB.

We are all keen to store any material which helps preserve things for future generations. If you want to preserve anything just get in contact and we will find a place to store it, and make it publicly available.
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by Einar Saukas »

richl wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:18 pm
Ast A. Moore wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:21 pm I think it’s best to take ZXDB for what it is—a database, rather than a preservation archive. Some compromises have to be made.
I agree but aren't the screenshots we're talking about just those that are hosted by Spectrum Computing (i.e. part of the archive here), they're not actually part of zxdb as such... right? By that I mean anyone can set up their own site based on zxdb and choose to do whatever they want with regard to screenshots etc... or have I goofed? I thought the database just holds info on the titles such as author(s), publishers, all that sort of thing; it doesn't have anything to do with specific screenshots, inlays etc. and any archive is just a separate entity that uses zxdb as a sort of index or whatever a better term may be.
Kinda :)

ZXDB is just a database, that holds info on the titles such as author(s), publishers, all that sort of thing. It doesn't contain any files. However it also indexes external files at WoS, Spectrum Computing, Archive.org, and a few other sources. Choosing external files to be indexed (therefore what's the screenshot that will be displayed for a certain game) is also part of ZXDB responsibility.
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by Einar Saukas »

Ast A. Moore wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:21 pmMy understanding is that the strive for “authenticity” can sometimes outweigh usefulness, practicality, or representativeness. So, no animated GIFs, I’m afraid.
That's the general rule. ZXDB strives for authenticity, and original unedited unconverted SCR screens is the closest we can get to fully authentic material.

However in rare cases where an SCR cannot represent a loading screen accurately, and an animated GIF does a better job, then I think it's reasonable to make an exception. Martijn originally created an animated GIF for Heavy on the Magick, I think it was a good idea in this case. I previously remove this GIF because I thought it was redundant but you all made a good point here, so I have reconsidered and it will be back in the next update. Thanks for bringing this up!

Ast A. Moore wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:21 pmThe long, short, and curly of it is that loading screens (and in-game screens) are not necessarily what the user would see on the screen, but rather the 6192 bytes that occupied the emulated display file at the moment of capture. There are some exceptions of course. For example, MLT files are used instead of SCR for capturing some tricky (mostly multicolor) screens.
This is a different problem. I was going to suggest Fuse to implement saving SCR exactly like MLT, but I forgot about it. Thanks for reminding me! I will do it now.

Ast A. Moore wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:21 pmStill, there’s no way to retain the border or some other special effects.
In rare cases where border effects are really important, ZXDB also makes an exception. See for instance Bordertrix and Rotatrix.

Ast A. Moore wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:21 pmI think it’s best to take ZXDB for what it is—a database, rather than a preservation archive. Some compromises have to be made.
ZXDB tries to be both. Sometimes it's a trade-off, and I realize it's not perfect. Constructive criticism is always welcome! I try to be open for suggestions and reconsider decisions whenever it makes sense, like in this case about a Heavy on the Magick animated GIF.
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Re: Screenshot fixes

Post by Einar Saukas »

Ralf wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:28 am I can confirm - yes, tzx images don't capture everything.
I have seen cassettes with some tones or music marking start or end of the programs. I have even seen programs with some human voice announcing program title. It's lost when converting to tzx.
True.

Whenever a tape has extra sound (such as music between programs or a voice recorded story), it's certainly worth it to preserve everything, either as WAV or MP3. If you have this kind of material, please send it! We will find a place to store it, and get it referenced in ZXDB too.

In the remaining 99.9% of cases, then TZX is a perfectly accurate representation of all program blocks. Usually the only difference between TZX and original WAV is extra noise from the cassette, that's different for each cassette copy anyway. I see no possible reason to preserve random noise. But I'm open to arguments otherwise. :)
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