1980s / 1990s Computer with the best design and Potential

[Joefish]

Isn't Crazy Cars 2 a 'Plus' game though? i.e. GX4000
Perhaps a better comparison is Chase HQ. The full-colour graphics on the Amstrad look far better than the Spectrum (in still shots), but it's frame rate is not as good.

Another good like-for-like comparison is Gauntlet. It looks better from a distance, with coloured floors compared to the Spectrum's all-black backgrounds. And many of the enemy sprites do look better in more colours. But look at the heroes' walking animation and it's tragic in blocky resolution (not that the Spectrum character sprites are anything to write home about, exactly), and overall the game just runs a lot slower.

A tellingly bad example is Space Harrier, where it simply can't shift a lot of large sprites, and resorts to vector outlines for most of the enemies to keep the speed up.

Then something like Get Dexter, in isometric 3D, looks great on the Amstrad, as the wider pixels fit the angle of the isometric lines anyway.

I think Amstrad programmers should have tried more original stuff in the 4-colour mode though. That's the better way of showing up the inadequacies of Spectrum games that resorted to monochrome!

[catmeows]

The problem was that in either mode (320x200x4 colours, or 160x200x16 colours) there was more than twice as much screen memory to move around as the Spectrum, using the same processor at roughly the same speed. Static screen games didn't suffer much, but anything with a lot of scrolling was kind of screwed.

Exactly. [email protected] is just enough to shuffle with roughly 4KB of screen memory.

[PeterJ]

I've been thinking about this topic whilst sitting in front of the computer in my sweltering hot temporary home office, and I think the reason why I like the MSX is that games like Jack The Nipper 2, look (to my eye) exactly like their Spectrum counterparts (I guess this is helped by the resolution being the same), but without the colour clash. To me, it just looks right and I feel at home.

I just wish (as a BASIC programmer) it was possible to have the sprite collision command tell you what had clashed with what, and that their was the equivalent of Screen and attr commands.

[akeley]

Crazy Cars 2 has a GX version, which has additional music and maybe some very slight gfx improvements, but the one in my pic is from 6128.

Of course, there were some trade-offs across all these platforms, so you can gain something on one, lose on another, but overall there is no doubt that Spectrum was on the bottom of the hardware ladder (out of the Big Four). I don't find it at all upsetting, because it's something which has proven beneficial by stimulating creativity, and has resulted in many unbelieveable coding feats, and even creation and popularization of other genres, such as isometric or text adventures.

[Lethargeek]

oh, and Spectravideo SVI was just basic MSX-compatible, was it meant to be its predecessor SV?

[PeterJ]

oh, and Spectravideo SVI was just basic MSX-compatible, was it meant to be its predecessor SV?

I meant whichever of them was very similar to the MSX, but not 100% the same.

[Pegaz]

I think the list is incomplete without BBC Master and MSX 2 / MSX Turbo R, which are among the most powerful 8 bit computers...
Assuming all MSX models are under the same label, then I am voting for MSX.

[+3code]

I think the list is incomplete without BBC Master and MSX 2 / MSX Turbo R, which are among the most powerful 8 bit computers...

MSX Turbo R was 16 bits (cpu R800). It has too a Z80, but for backward compatibility.

[+3code]

I think, the last 8 bits machine was Amstrad PcW16 (Z80 at 16mhz), in 1995.

[PeterJ]

I think the list is incomplete without BBC Master and MSX 2 / MSX Turbo R, which are among the most powerful 8 bit computers...
Assuming all MSX models are under the same label, then I am voting for MSX.

Yes, all MSX Computers under MSX, as is the BBC.

[toot_toot]

I’d choose one that’s missing - the Commodore 65 - the unreleased “successor” to the C64 with a 3.5” floppy, more memory, faster processor, built in OS and backwards compatibly with the C64. Plus it had a really nice keyboard similar to the Amiga. The Mega 65 project looks like they’re going to revive the hardware and it will be nice to get one without spending ten grand!

The Commodore 128 was another good designed computer that didn’t really succeed, maybe because it just wasn’t as good as the lovely new 16 bit machines that were mind blowing at the time.

The Commodore Plus 4 was an interesting idea that was poorly implemented. Having four productivity applications built into the machine would have made it a good machine for business or scchoolwork, but limiting the hardware with poor memory and graphic capabilities was a mistake. If they’d combined the built in productivity idea with the C64, it probably would have done really well.

[PeterJ]

Interesting choice [mention]toot_toot[/mention]

[1024MAK]

Ignoring the two big players (ZX Spectrum & C64) which 8Bit computer do you feel had the best potential in terms of design, and capabilities (sound & graphics) for the time, regardless of their commercial success.

That’s a difficult one. By ignoring the ZX Spectrum and the Commodore 64, do you mean, don’t choose either of these, but they are still in the market place, or do you mean, if they had never been made and sold? If the latter, that may influence the design decisions made by the manufacturers of the machines that were released later...

One of the things that did contribute greatly to the success of the ZX Spectrum and the Commodore 64 was getting the ‘right’ features at the ‘right’ price point. High prices eliminate a fair number of machines in this list. Timing in getting a machine to the market is also critical to the results, so a lot of contenders were not available until after the initial boom of the market.

If ZX Spectrum and the Commodore 64 were missing from the U.K. market, I think the Atari 400, the Oric-1 and TI-99/4A would have been the main choices for the early part of the 1980s. Then later on, maybe the Acorn Electron would have been more successful than it was.

For the slightly higher priced market, it was the BBC B, but after 1983 without the ZX Spectrum and Commodore 64, the Memotech MTX (has the same graphics chip as MSX machines), the various MSX machines and the Amstrad CPC 464, 664, 6128 machines would have been having a bigger war for sales.

The MSX, Enterprise 128 and various others are interesting machines and would have been far more successful if they had been available much earlier.

Also without the Commodore 64, would the Commodore 16 been more successful?

Most of the rest were either too costly, too limited in RAM or had other problems (limited graphics, no or limited colour, no or limited sound etc...).

Where known, I’ve added price and release dates:

Acorn Atom £170, released 1980
Acorn BBC Micro £235/£300/£335, released 1981
Acorn Electron £199, released 1983
Amstrad CPC464, £199/£299, released 1984
Amstrad CPC664, £339/£449, released 1985
Amstrad CPC6128, £299/£399, released end of 1985
Apple lle £980
Atari 400 £150, released 1979
Atari 800 £300, released 1979
Atari 600XL/800XL, released end of 1983
Cambridge Computer Z88, released 1987
Camputers Lynx £225, released 1983
Commodore Pet, US$795, released 1977
Commodore VIC-20 £140, released 1981
Commodore 16, released 1984
Commodore Plus/4 $299, released 1984
Commodore 128, released 1985
Dragon 32 £175, released 1982
EACA Video Genie, released 1980, 1981, 1982
EACA Colour Genie £200, released 1982
Enterprise Computers Enterprise 64, Enterprise 128, released 1985
Grundy NewBrain £199, £229, released 1982
Jupiter Cantab Jupiter Ace £90, released 1982
Mattel Aquarius, released 1983
Memotech MTX500, £275, released 1983
Memotech MTX512, £315, released 1984
MSX, released 1983
Oric-1 £100, released 1982
SAM Coupe, released late 1989
Sharp MZ-80K, released 1978
Sharp MZ-80A £550, released 1982
Sharp MZ-700, released 1982
Sinclair ZX80, £100, released 1980
Sinclair ZX81 £50/£70, released 1981
Sord M5 £196, released 1982
Spectravideo SV-318 / SV-328 released 1983
Spectravideo SVI-728 / SVI-738 £400, released 1985
Tandy TRS80 model 1 £200, released 1977
Tandy TRS-80 Model III, released 1980,
Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer £240, released 1980
Tatung Einstein £499, released 1984
TI-99/4A £150
VTech Laser 200, £98, released 1983


For the record, when as a child I was trying to decide which computer to get (okay, ask for as a Christmas present for Christmas 1983), the shortlist included the Atari 400 and the TI-99/4A... (although I preferred the Atari 800 keyboard...).

If money had not been a limiting factor, it would have likely been a BBC B.

Mark

[1024MAK]

Incidentally, since 2010 I have acquired these computers:

Acorn Atom
Acorn BBC Micro model B
Acorn BBC Master 128
Acorn BBC Master Compact
Acorn Electron
Amstrad CPC464
Amstrad CPC6128
Cambridge Computer Z88
Commodore 128
EACA Video Genie
Jupiter Cantab Jupiter Ace (don’t have an original, but built a replica board)
Memotech MTX500
Memotech MTX512
MSX (can’t remember which make/model)
Sharp MZ-80A
Sharp MZ-700
Sinclair ZX80
Sinclair ZX81
Tatung Einstein

Mark

[PeterJ]

Thanks [mention]1024MAK[/mention]

What I'm trying to get at is purely lookng at the hardware and BASIC or Forth implementation which had the best opportunity to succeed, regardless of if it did succeed.

My understanding is that the Oric had a lot of bugs to start with.

[1024MAK]

What I'm trying to get at is purely lookng at the hardware and BASIC or Forth implementation which had the best opportunity to succeed, regardless of if it did succeed.

Yeah, I get that.

I think of them all, the Enterprise looks the most interesting for the mid 1980s, so that’s what I’m going to go with and vote for.

Mark

[1024MAK]

My understanding is that the Oric had a lot of bugs to start with.

Don’t know, I’ve never had one. A year later the Oric Atmos came out with a much better keyboard and with a new ROM that apparently fixed most of the bugs. I’ve never got my hands on one of those either.

Mark

[Cosmium]

I think of them all, the Enterprise looks the most interesting for the mid 1980s, so that’s what I’m going to go with and vote for.

I went for the Enterprise too for the same reasons. I remember reading development news about it when it was known as the Elan and wanting one, and seeing a prototype at a computer show, but the release delay went on and on..

Other contenders I considered (and lusted for at the time): the Amstrad CPCs though they had limited horizontal resolution if you wanted more than 4 colours on screen, and the Z80 had more on its plate dealing with the larger screen memory footprint, compared to the Spectrum.

From what I read recently, the SAM Coupe also had its faster Z80B taxed with the machine's larger screen memory - even at 6MHz.

Putting me off the Memotech and MSX were the video chip's dedicated video RAM which resulted in a kind of bottleneck by not having direct CPU access to a memory mapped screen, compared to the Spectrum. The sprites were nice though, even if they always seemed to be one colour.

So all in all I think the Spectrum with its memory mapped 6KB and lower res colour attributes display was a nice trade off which allowed:
a) the Z80 able to handle the display without being to overtaxed
b) the computer to feel very "open" and flexible and
c) the price to be kept down

[PeterJ]

The Amstrad's middle resolution of 320x200 in four colours was rarely used in games; only in those crappy Spectrum ports where of course even the Speccy's palette had to be downgraded. But with a careful selection of colours and maybe slightly more abstract graphics than trying to draw anything realistic, this mode looked really good. Certainly an improvement over all those monochrome Spectrum titles. Look at it's version of Head Over Heels for instance - brilliant stuff.

[mention]Joefish[/mention]

Could I ask, Is Monty on the Run on the CPC just a standard 160 x 200 16 Colour Game. The graphics just look really impressive for a CPC game (or is that just me?)

[XTM]

Yes, it is a standard mode 0 game with 16 colours, but what makes them impressive for you? I think there are tons of much better looking games in this mode. I for one was usually far more impressed by Mode 1 (320x200) games if they went for a good colour palette and high detail, resulting in games like, for example, Bob Winner (YouTube link).