C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

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PeterJ
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by PeterJ »

Wow @Ersh,

They are certainly big differences.
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Ersh
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Ersh »

For reference; and do keep in mind that these photos aren't scientific in any way (it's a smartphone camera capture of a CRT after all). Here's the same screen taken on my 1084. First screen is with the monitor at 50% colour saturation, the second at 100%.

Now it doesn't necessarily look that close to colorode in these photos, but it's a much better fit with the naked eye. Also if you'd apply a CRT filter (hanover bars, scanlines etc) when taking a screenshot with an emulator, it comes notably closer.

Image
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Ersh
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Ersh »

PeterJ wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:41 pm
They are certainly big differences.
Sure are. :)
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Lethargeek
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Lethargeek »

catmeows wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:24 am
Look here: https://lospec.com/palette-list

IMHO:

When you browse the palette list, you quickly realize that universal 16 color palette is rather impossible.
I see there some are much better than the others to represent the real world in games and pixel art instead of "covering the color spectrum quite well" (who the hell ever needs that for home computer except Sir Clive who, as we know, hated video games). Anyway, my picks are:
https://lospec.com/palette-list/arq16
https://lospec.com/palette-list/arne-16
https://lospec.com/palette-list/dawnbringer-16
https://lospec.com/palette-list/fzt-ethereal-16
https://lospec.com/palette-list/fun16
https://lospec.com/palette-list/optimum
https://lospec.com/palette-list/ultima-vi-sharp-x68000
https://lospec.com/palette-list/zeitgeist16
OTOH the poor Spectrum has no proper colors for blue sky, skin tones, steel, clay, wood etc, while getting extra almost useless cyan and magenta.
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Pegaz
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Pegaz »

PeterJ wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:23 pm
@Joefish mentioned the 87 screenshots double page in the Sinclair ZX Spectrum And Commodore 64 Book 2012. If you can get hold of a copy, it is well worth the investment. I know which I prefer, but I can see the beauty in both.

There is a version here, but the scan quality does not give it justice.

https://archive.org/details/Sinclair_ZX ... 2/mode/2up

I think it was quite brave doing a ZX & C64 double magazine.

This is the Spectrum one:

Image

and this is the C64 one:

Image
Thanks for the link Peter, great book indeed. :)
Assuming the author took these screenshots in the same or similar conditions, there really isn’t too much difference or at least to me, the colors don’t look washed out.
It seems, that screenshots from various sources and types of palettes can make quite a difference.
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Ersh
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Ersh »

Image

I made a mistake in the screenshot collage, here's the correct colodore. Sorry about that. :?
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Einar Saukas
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Einar Saukas »

Ersh wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:47 pm
Image

I made a mistake in the screenshot collage, here's the correct colodore. Sorry about that. :?
Sorry but I think this "fixed" palette still looks mostly brown and purple!
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Ersh
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Ersh »

Einar Saukas wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:20 pm
Sorry but I think this "fixed" palette still looks mostly brown and purple!
That might well be. :) The point was; there are different palettes in circulation, none of them entirely correct. On my 1084 I can see a slight orange tint to a few colours, which may explain the "brown" argument. There may be a slight hint of purple in the light blue as well. In my opinion it's not that bad, and if the overall saturation is too washed out, simply crank that colour wheel to eleven. :)

If you hook the c64 up to a TV, the colours are of course dependent on the set. The 1084 is just my personal benchmark.
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Pegaz
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Pegaz »

After all, it seems that the differences between NTSC and PAL C64, definitely have an impact on the color palette.
I think this interesting article explains that pretty well:
http://hitmen.c02.at/temp/palstuff/
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Einar Saukas
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Einar Saukas »

Lethargeek wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:22 pm
catmeows wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:24 am
Look here: https://lospec.com/palette-list

IMHO:

When you browse the palette list, you quickly realize that universal 16 color palette is rather impossible.
I see there some are much better than the others to represent the real world in games and pixel art instead of "covering the color spectrum quite well" (who the hell ever needs that for home computer except Sir Clive who, as we know, hated video games).
You missed the point. I never said the Spectrum's specific choice of color tones was "right". On the contrary, I mentioned it has a serious flaw: there's no meaningful difference between bright and non-bright colors. They are not different color tones, just slightly darker versions of exactly the same colors. It means the Spectrum palette only has 8 colors in practice! You can try it yourself: load any Spectrum screenshot into ZX-Paintbrush, then remove all brightness. It will look basically the same.

But my exact point was that, when a general purpose computer can only have a very small fixed palette, it works much better to chose a wide variety of colors spread over the color spectrum, regardless of what specific colors were chosen.

The link you mentioned illustrates this point quite well. In pixel art, a small palette that's mostly different tones of brown and purple, could be great to provide a unique atmosphere for a certain level of a game. However it's not such a great idea to keep using these colors for an entire game. And it's a terrible idea to always use only these colors for absolutely everything, all the time.

The book images that Peter posted clearly show more graphic variety in Spectrum screens, despite using essentially half the palette size.
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