C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

[Pegaz]

Can we bring this back to my original question

Here's some more detailed information that might be useful:

https://www.cosmigo.com/promotion/docs/ ... re-c64.htm
https://dustlayer.com/index-vic-ii/
https://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/ ... The_64.php

[ketmar]

it is obvious that ZX Spectrum is far superior!

sorry again. but really, can anobody resist it? definitely not me. ;-)

Can you quote me an example from my posts where I'm saying that ZX Spectrum is far superior?

It's the second time you're doing this low-blow thing, so it shouldn't be too hard, right? ;)

And while you're looking, pay attention to the multiple times I am actually saying it about C64. There is even one where I'm saying ZX is the weakest.

Have fun :D

oh, sorry, it's not an attack, it is just my weird sense of humor. i mean, Speccy fanboy should say this, and such thread should have at least one fanboy. so i'm pretending to be that one.

[Ersh]

Was this mode used for many games and was it popular?

Some Spectrum ports like Skool Daze and The Great Escape most likely used the standard bitmap mode. Elite possibly also uses it on the upper part of the screen with a raster split to change to multi-colour for the UI (similar to the BBC).

[akeley]

The pictures Pegaz posted aren't in any character mode and doesn't suffer the same limitations as most games, so the colour choices there were entirely up to the artists.

And it does not strike you as odd that they've made those colour choices in all these random pics?

I think you're being a bit unfair here, I never said the c64 was without flaws. I was genuinely interested in seeing some examples, as I never understood the whole "brown" thing. Still don't.
[...]
I believe the "ugly" colours are a highly subjective topic, certainly nothing one must "admit" anything to. I'm not trying to win any argument here, just saying people's taste differ.

I was using plural "you" because it seems to me that was the general consensus ITT, and I'm also recalling all the aforementioned arguments from elsewhere. Overall, yes, colours and perception are subjective - said as much myself when I said arguing about it would be pointless. And yet, I still think it's subjective to a point, as in, most people would probably agree that vibrant, natural colours (which you've called "garish") are a better choice.

Of course it does not mean people should not enjoy or create stuff with C64 palette. In a way I do it myself these days, same with the "blocky" gfx, it has its peculiar charm and gives every machine's gfx a distinct look.

If I had to choose a single 80's micro to be stranded on a desert island with, I'd take the Spectrum any day. I don't use it because it was superior hardware-wise in any way, I use it because, to me, it has the better games. Best community as well.

Sure, it certainly has its share of unforgettable titles. I made my choice with a heavy heart but can't pass on a machine which boasts the likes of Pool Of Radiance and Pirates!

Unfortunately finding a 'community' on a desert island could pose a problem

[AndyC]

I'm not sure why they "brown" thing is the major complaint of C64 graphics. Yes brown and grey were often used as the shared colours, presumably because of the limits mentioned previously, but it was usually not too bad. It probably doesn't help that the washed out palette tended to mean that "red" looked rather more brown too though.

For me, the fact that C64 games often seemed to have a three colour background was far more jarring. The resolution trade off doesn't seem quite so good when you aren't getting the full benefit of extra colours. Of course it happens because, unlike the character map, the colour ram in the C64 is in a fixed position so it's much harder to scroll, so it's easier if the colours remain consistent on screen.

[PeterJ]

I've heard the Spectrum colours described as garish, and the C64 colours described as dull (or washed out as mentioned above).

I think it's all very much down to personal taste (just pop down to B&Q and look at the huge range of paint colours to suit all tastes) and we can appreciate both options. I like looking at the same game over multiple platforms.

For me personally I prefer the Spectrum 'garish' tones, but that's just my personal preference. People see colours very differently

I know emulators are not everyone's cup of tea, but I love the ability to look at games side by side or games exclusive to one machine that I don't have the hardware for (with the understanding that colours may not be reproduced exactly as intended), without having to spend £100s on eBay.

Thanks for all the interesting information that you have all provided.

I'm off to play Creatures 2!

[Joefish]

Another problem is not just 'Brown', but 'Orange' is actually brown, 'Pink' is a bit brown (admittedly, together they're pretty good for flesh tones, but that is only because they're all a bit brown). 'Purple' looks like they took magenta and mixed it with brown, 'Red' is a kind of rusty red - otherwise known as brown - and both shades of blue look like a bit of the brown-tinted purple has leaked into them. Just look, both shades of blue have a hint of purple about them!

Why can't we have a machine with the 8 vibrant RGB colours, then 8 others with the orange, brown, pink, green, grey etc. as smudgy as you like?

Honestly, when I look at the page in that Retro Gamer Speccy/C64 book that's got 100 C64 screenshots, I'd swear I was looking at a page where one of the printer's colour inks had run out. The colour cast is that major.

[ketmar]

offtopic about emulators

I know emulators are not everyone's cup of tea

sidenote: i always owned computer monitor for Speccy (just a sheer luck, tbh), yet it was b/w. so i've never seen those Speccy half-toned game screens blurred as intended. and for a long time i chose colors for my Speccy software by only looking at monochrome intensity. i wish i still have some of those programs, i'd like to look at 'em now. ;-)

anyway, today i don't have Good Old CRT TV too. so i still won't be able to see Teh Right Colors And Bluring. so emulators are much more authentic for me than any "real hardware". and if the emu has b/w setting (ZXEmuT have it, now you know why ;-), it is almost 100% "real" from my PoV.

so, "Emulators Are Not Real" is the same fanboyism as "C64 rox/sux, Speccy sux/rox", and even not true in some cases like mine.

and thank you for reading this. but didn't i told you that this is offtopic right from the start? ;-)

[Pegaz]

I think it's more a matter of taste, than the real problem, in other words whether someone prefers more vibrant or more realistic color palette.
I read somewhere that part of the problem may be that the C64, like some other US computers, is designed primarily for the NTSC format.
Just found a couple of videos where we can see pictures from the NTSC C64 machine.
It doesn't look washed out to me, of course it has brown color, but it is there for the purpose of getting a realistic digitized images.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3VNDstKx3w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgM6KVdae3Y

Also, every TV has the ability to increase color saturation if needed.
At the end of the day, a capable programmer will find a way to avoid the shortcomings of each system and take advantage of the machine he is working on.
Everything else is splitting hair into four...

[Ersh]

Another problem is not just 'Brown', but 'Orange' is actually brown, 'Pink' is a bit brown (admittedly, together they're pretty good for flesh tones, but that is only because they're all a bit brown). 'Purple' looks like they took magenta and mixed it with brown, 'Red' is a kind of rusty red - otherwise known as brown - and both shades of blue look like a bit of the brown-tinted purple has leaked into them. Just look, both shades of blue have a hint of purple about them!

Yes, that makes much more sense. That's probably the origin of the whole "brown" thing. Not an overuse of a single colour but a slight orange (as well as somewhat desaturated) tint to all shades.

As a painter I still like the c64 palette the best with its more natural and earthy tones, wish the colour red was a bit brighter though. That said; I can still appreciate the saturation of the ZX/CPC palettes.

[AndyC]

Why can't we have a machine with the 8 vibrant RGB colours, then 8 others with the orange, brown, pink, green, grey etc. as smudgy as you like?

Looks over at SAM Coupe and Amstrad Plus machines...

Yeah, if only such things were possible.

[Einar Saukas]

This is an interesting discussion.

I found this:



If these palettes are accurate, then it means C64 colors are 1 black, 4 browns, 3 purples, 2 greens, 1 greenish yellow, 1 grayish cyan, 3 grays, 1 white. The problem is not just lack of vibrant colors, it's also missing most of the color spectrum! There's no red, orange, yellow, pink or blue.

The Speccy has the opposite problem: it covers the color spectrum quite well, but there's not enough difference between bright and non-bright colors. It would have more color variety if the non-bright colors were more washed out versions of the bright colors (instead of just darker versions of them).

[PeterJ]

There is also an interesting document here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... e_graphics

[mention]Pegaz[/mention] mentioned how he felt NTSC had been a factor in the choice of colours which the above article mentions too.

This article (warning lots of adverts in this one) describes more:

https://www.britannica.com/technology/t ... TSC-system

[Ersh]

If these palettes are accurate...

They are not. The correct c64 colours are highly debated and there are several palettes in use. When using emulators I opt for the colodore palette as that seems the closest to what I see on my actual 1084 monitor, but it's not a 100% match. There are other popular palettes as well, like the older pepto.

How colodore was calculated: https://www.pepto.de/projects/colorvic/

Here's an interactive colodore test screen, you can adjust the image like you would on a monitor: https://www.colodore.com/ (try turning the saturation to the max for some very vibrant colours)

[Pegaz]

If these palettes are accurate...

They are not. The correct c64 colours are highly debated and there are several palettes in use. When using emulators I opt for the colodore palette as that seems the closest to what I see on my actual 1084 monitor, but it's not a 100% match. There are other popular palettes as well, like the older pepto.

How colodore was calculated: https://www.pepto.de/projects/colorvic/

Here's an interactive colodore test screen, you can adjust the image like you would on a monitor: https://www.colodore.com/ (try turning the saturation to the max for some very vibrant colours)

Just like I thought.
This second link nicely shows, that if the color saturation is raised a bit, purple, red and light red become clearly visible and recognizable.
Also, the distinction between orange and brown is much better, although it's not ideal. 

[catmeows]

This is an interesting discussion.

I found this:
[...]

Look here: https://lospec.com/palette-list

IMHO:

When you browse the palette list, you quickly realize that universal 16 color palette is rather impossible.
If you restrict yourself to a particular mood/style, you could go away with 4,5,6 colors but if you want palette for general use, you probably want cover at least 9-10 hues with few levels of saturation and brightness plus at least rudimental black-gray-white scale. You can always cheat little bit but in the end you probably need around 30 colors to have passable general purpose palette.
With 16 color palettes, there are always cases when a particular palette fits your intent better than other one. For different intent, you would choose different 16c palette. So trying to decide which 16c palette is better is kind of futile attempt. Of course, thats just my impression.

[Einar Saukas]

They are not. The correct c64 colours are highly debated and there are several palettes in use.

I can understand minor differences. However I never saw anyone publish a C64 screenshot that wasn't very washed out. Do you mean absolutely EVERYBODY got it completely wrong?

Bizarre.

[Pegaz]

They are not. The correct c64 colours are highly debated and there are several palettes in use.

I can understand minor differences. However I never saw anyone publish a C64 screenshot that wasn't very washed out. Do you mean absolutely EVERYBODY got it completely wrong?

Bizarre.

Well, If you looked at the link posted by Peter this morning, you would see that the palettes for all US/Japan machines look similar or less vibrant.
On the other hand, the palette of European computers (Amstrad, Acorn, Sinclair) seems much more vivid.
Maybe that NTSC/PAL factor is the reason for this, after all.
Also, on the same link you can see a picture of the C64 screen with colors, which look quite ok.
Slightly oversaturated yes, but washed out I wouldn't say.

[PeterJ]

[mention]Joefish[/mention] mentioned the 87 screenshots double page in the Sinclair ZX Spectrum And Commodore 64 Book 2012. If you can get hold of a copy, it is well worth the investment. I know which I prefer, but I can see the beauty in both.

There is a version here, but the scan quality does not give it justice.

https://archive.org/details/Sinclair_ZX ... 2/mode/2up

I think it was quite brave doing a ZX & C64 double magazine.

This is the Spectrum one:



and this is the C64 one:

[Ersh]

They are not. The correct c64 colours are highly debated and there are several palettes in use.

I can understand minor differences. However I never saw anyone publish a C64 screenshot that wasn't very washed out. Do you mean absolutely EVERYBODY got it completely wrong?

Bizarre.

No, I've already said in a previous post that I find it somewhat subdued (or washed out if you rather prefer that). I'm just saying that the palette you posted is wrong, they all are, even colorode. Colour signals are a complicated thing. If you'd check the links I've posted then you'd see it's not that straightforward.

Minor differences? No, they can be quite severe. The amount of RGB, saturation (which all should be pretty close actually), the brightness, the contrast, it makes a huge difference.

All screenshots you mention that you've seen has been taken by an emulator using a palette. Have a look at these screens, notice any difference? Some are way off like the old CCS64 palette. The closest to my eyes, like I've mentioned, is the last one Colorode. It's not perfect, but it's close.

[PeterJ]

Wow [mention]Ersh[/mention],

They are certainly big differences.

[Ersh]

For reference; and do keep in mind that these photos aren't scientific in any way (it's a smartphone camera capture of a CRT after all). Here's the same screen taken on my 1084. First screen is with the monitor at 50% colour saturation, the second at 100%.

Now it doesn't necessarily look that close to colorode in these photos, but it's a much better fit with the naked eye. Also if you'd apply a CRT filter (hanover bars, scanlines etc) when taking a screenshot with an emulator, it comes notably closer.

[Ersh]

They are certainly big differences.

Sure are.

[Lethargeek]

Look here: https://lospec.com/palette-list

IMHO:

When you browse the palette list, you quickly realize that universal 16 color palette is rather impossible.

I see there some are much better than the others to represent the real world in games and pixel art instead of "covering the color spectrum quite well" (who the hell ever needs that for home computer except Sir Clive who, as we know, hated video games). Anyway, my picks are:
https://lospec.com/palette-list/arq16
https://lospec.com/palette-list/arne-16
https://lospec.com/palette-list/dawnbringer-16
https://lospec.com/palette-list/fzt-ethereal-16
https://lospec.com/palette-list/fun16
https://lospec.com/palette-list/optimum
https://lospec.com/palette-list/ultima-vi-sharp-x68000
https://lospec.com/palette-list/zeitgeist16
OTOH the poor Spectrum has no proper colors for blue sky, skin tones, steel, clay, wood etc, while getting extra almost useless cyan and magenta.

[Pegaz]

@Joefish mentioned the 87 screenshots double page in the Sinclair ZX Spectrum And Commodore 64 Book 2012. If you can get hold of a copy, it is well worth the investment. I know which I prefer, but I can see the beauty in both.

There is a version here, but the scan quality does not give it justice.

https://archive.org/details/Sinclair_ZX ... 2/mode/2up

I think it was quite brave doing a ZX & C64 double magazine.

This is the Spectrum one:



and this is the C64 one:

Thanks for the link Peter, great book indeed.
Assuming the author took these screenshots in the same or similar conditions, there really isn’t too much difference or at least to me, the colors don’t look washed out.
It seems, that screenshots from various sources and types of palettes can make quite a difference.