C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

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Pegaz
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Pegaz »

Well, the answer is simple, C64 game developers had a choice and decided that it was more important for them at that time, to have more colors on the screen, than a higher resolution.
That, in my opinion, is one of the main reasons for the predominant multicolor games.
All those resolutions on 8bit computers from the early eighties are in fact lo res and that is why this blockiness issue is pretty pointless.
At that time, most games on popular computers looked like that, no one complained, just as color clash didn't bother us much.
We have learned to live with their shortcomings, it's a part of computer history and more importantly our beautiful memories.
I took part in one horrible “vs” discussion at Wos, several years ago, learned my lesson and haven't the slightest desire to deal with this brown or similar "arguments" again... sorry.
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Joefish »

akeley wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:45 pm...the strange fascination with colour brown :D
There's actually a partial reason for this. As I said, in multi-colour character mode, one of the bits of the colour RAM is used to toggle wether a character is to be treated as hi-res or lo-res. (Which is a bit weird, as they all come from the same character set. I'm not sure anyone would ever design a UDG where the bit patterns work as both monochrome hi-res and 4-colour lo-res).

The result of that is you can then only pick one of the first 8 colours from the palette to be unique to that character. That's black, white and the weirdly de-saturated versions of red, blue, purple, yellow, green, cyan.

If you want to use one of the further 8 colours (muddy orange, diarrhoea brown, dead-flesh pink, light green and blue, 3 greys) then you have to assign it to one of the three global screen colours, which means then every lo-res character on the screen then inherits that as one of its four colours, meaning it shows up a lot more than you might otherwise want.
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by akeley »

These discussions are only horrible when people make them so. And there's no need for that. I really don't see why it shouldn't be possible discuss all the pros and cons of these machines in a lighthearted fashion. The fact it almost never happens and mostly ends in bitter exchanges was always a mystery to me - after all over three decades have passed, we've all grown up (allegedly) and there's no need for tribalism anymore.

Spectrum was overall the weakest of the Big Four micros when it comes to hardware. But it had some strong points too, high res gfx was one of them, and so why not talk about it (especially here)? Conversely, C64 was the mightiest of the lot - but it also had some weaknesses. It's not possible to mention them on the dedicated forums because the pitchforks will come out instantly.

Like I mentioned before I love all the micros. I find it fascinating to learn about them and compare stuff across the board. Sinclair will always have a special meaning for me as the first 8-bit <3, but it does not cloud my judgement or turn into a cultist.

Here's my micro-desk next to where I'm sitting now. Unfortunately no space for the CPC, Amiga & ST atm (but they're on rotation). They all get along just fine there :)

Image

[mention]Joefish[/mention] thanks for the explanation. I wasn't actually sure if that really is a thing or maybe just some local bias I had, especially seeing as of course there are plenty of games which work around this too and look really colourful.
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by PeterJ »

akeley wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:56 am after all over three decades have passed, we've all grown up (allegedly) and there's no need for tribalism anymore.
Agreed!
akeley wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:56 am Like I mentioned before I love all the micros. I find it fascinating to learn about them and compare stuff across the board.
I'm exactly the same!
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by ketmar »

akeley wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:56 am Like I mentioned before I love all the micros.
...except those built with 6502.

sorry, just couldn't resist it... ;-)
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by AndyC »

Describing the exact limitations of the C64 screen display is always a bit difficult, because it isn't quite a simple as "In mode X you have N*M pixels with Z colours". And that's even before you start getting into the kind of tricks modern developers pull to lift certain limitations.

As to the "low res" bit, I don't think it's a bad as people sometimes make out. It's not that far off from the horizontal resolution of the Speccy and the blurry nature of old school CRT displays definitely helped somewhat. I personally think the limitations around shared colours and the washed out ones in the unique-per-tile ones really don't help much. Having drawn a fair few bits for the CPC (which has a similar 160*200 screen) having better colour density can massively improve the achievable results.
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by catmeows »

Well, I wonder, if Speccy would have similar hi-color mode, say 128*192 with 2 global and two local colors per attribute cell, what would be preffered mode. Hires or hicolor ?
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by p13z »

One of the reasons the Speccy didn't look as "blocky" as some other machines at the time was simply that the border area is huge, and the video output was a bit fuzzy / bleedy. In the early eighties I had access to a PC and a Speccy. Games on the PC looked awful and blocky compared to the Speccy, even though higher res - just because they took up the whole screen, and the pixels were sharply defined on the monitor (similar situation with some BBC machines).
I remember being shocked at how bad the C64 graphics were when I first had a real play with one. They looked great as little screenshots on the back of a cassette case, with their huge palette of colour, but the resolution didn't hold up to TV size.
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Pegaz »

Certainly, it's not easy to describe all the C64 graphics capabilities.
There are also custom graphics modes, which allow stunung pictures, with or without interlaced techniques.
Here's a brief description of these modes:
https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Graphics_Modes
http://www.studiostyle.sk/dmagic/gallery/gfxmodes.htm

One of the most interesting is the hi-res NUFLI mode discovered about 10 years ago, which allows impressive images without interlacing!
I don't know exactly how this mode works but the pictures look great.
https://sites.google.com/site/nuflibase64/nufli-images

Here are some videos as examples of this and other modes mentioned above:
Most of them look great even on emulators, but on real C64 and CRT it looks fantastic.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJP9Sa7HFVE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e95g9rbE9EQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAUprwhQTZY
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Ersh »

NUFLI / MUIFLI are pretty impressive looking, as a static image in a demo or even as a streaming REU movie. Never seen it used in a game, seem to remember it requires quite a few cycles and memory (well FLI should require accurate timing at least), also all sprites are being used in displaying the image. Maybe a graphical text adventure could be done or something.

I love the subdued c64 palette, especially from an art standpoint. Feel the CPC's colours are a bit too over-saturated, which is fine for some art but looks pretty garish otherwise.

I never got the whole "brown" thing when talking about the c64, I mean trees and wood are brown, mud and some rocks are brown... you've got a brown colour why not use it? Should I use red instead? Can someone give me a few examples of the overuse of brown? Would be fun to see where this came from. :)
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Pegaz »

Ersh wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:02 pm NUFLI / MUIFLI are pretty impressive looking, as a static image in a demo or even as a streaming REU movie. Never seen it used in a game, seem to remember it requires quite a few cycles and memory (well FLI should require accurate timing at least), also all sprites are being used in displaying the image. Maybe a graphical text adventure could be done or something.

I love the subdued c64 palette, especially from an art standpoint. Feel the CPC's colours are a bit too over-saturated, which is fine for some art but looks pretty garish otherwise.

I never got the whole "brown" thing when talking about the c64, I mean trees and wood are brown, mud and some rocks are brown... you've got a brown colour why not use it? Should I use red instead? Can someone give me a few examples of the overuse of brown? Would be fun to see where this came from. :)
I don’t know the answer to that question and I honestly don’t care.
It's much more interesting to learn something new about these unofficial c64 graphics modes.
Here is the link where I found a lot of nice examples and descriptions, just expand "World First -Graphics" section:
http://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/recoll ... d_of_demos

Some of the most interesting modes are MUCSU FLI, NUFLI, UFLI (non interlaced):

Image
Image
Image

...as well as TRI-FLI and MUIFLI (interlaced):

Image


;)
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by akeley »

Ersh wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:02 pm I never got the whole "brown" thing when talking about the c64, I mean trees and wood are brown, mud and some rocks are brown... you've got a brown colour why not use it? Should I use red instead? Can someone give me a few examples of the overuse of brown? Would be fun to see where this came from. :)
Look at Pegaz's post above, it's a perfect example. Also, Joefish has explained it earlier: viewtopic.php?p=43131#p43131
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Ersh »

akeley wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:59 pm Look at Pegaz's post above, it's a perfect example. Also, Joefish has explained it earlier: viewtopic.php?p=43131#p43131
I'm quite familiar with the c64 hardware and already aware of the limitations Joefish wrote about, I even mentioned it before Joefish's post.

My point is, I haven't seen brown being overused in many games, take a look at the lemon64 top 100 list, not too many games there that uses predominantly the colour brown. Of course, trees, wood, rocks, mud, skin etc. are allowed to be brown (why would they not?)

I don't think the pictures Pegaz posted overuses brown either. Brown, given the limitations, is the most natural shade for human skin here. Sure beats red or yellow. ;)
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Pegaz »

Exactly.
If we take things out of context like this, we can always get the conclusion we want.
Form over substance, I would say...
So, back to the topic, heres a video as a perfect example about C64 graphics capabilities... and without too much brown around. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSqXWqT2HyE
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by akeley »

Ersh wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:28 pm Of course, trees, wood, rocks, mud, skin etc. are allowed to be brown (why would they not?)
Because it's possible to represent them in other colours as well, and because we are not talking about examples where brown is legitimately used, but general overuse of its many shades. I mean I suppose you could also say that this lady's dress, Arnies' blood, bird's feathers, the inscription, etc can be brown too, but this is getting a bit silly :)
Ersh wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:28 pm I don't think the pictures Pegaz posted overuses brown either.
Well, I do - see above :) Brown and sickly green. But, arguing about colours is a surefire way to a loop of pointlessness, so I'll pass. It's a bit like when one man's "subdued" is another's "bland", I guess.

In fact it's probably time for me to bail out of this thread altogether, because I'm starting to have a deja vu from watching similar binary discussions on other dedicated micro forums. The cultish template is that Our Machine is always best-in-everything - it has no flaws, and the alleged ones are quickly rationalized away or disproven with a non-representative demo or a solitary example (same as in many recent posts ITT).

That's something which I struggle to get along with because a) it's clearly not true b) I have no problem in talking about flaws and limitations, even in my supposed "favourites", ie Amiga/Spectrum.

So, I'm not sure why it is so hard to admit that many C64's games have suffered from lower-res and ugly colours vs its competitors. In the end it's still the best machine overall, and one I'd take to a desert island if I was forced to (on the strenght of its library of "big" games such as Pirates! thou, not the gfx itself). I have no need to perceive it as some unattainable, fantastical ideal though.
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by ketmar »

akeley wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:12 pm So, I'm not sure why it is so hard to admit that many C64's games have suffered from lower-res and ugly colours vs its competitors.
not hard at all. many C64's games have suffered from lower-res and ugly colours. here it is.

it is obvious that ZX Spectrum is far superior!

sorry again. but really, can anobody resist it? definitely not me. ;-)
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Pegaz »

akeley wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:12 pm
Ersh wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:28 pm Of course, trees, wood, rocks, mud, skin etc. are allowed to be brown (why would they not?)
Because it's possible to represent them in other colours as well, and because we are not talking about examples where brown is legitimately used, but general overuse of its many shades. I mean I suppose you could also say that this lady's dress, Arnies' blood, bird's feathers, the inscription, etc can be brown too, but this is getting a bit silly :)
Ersh wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:28 pm I don't think the pictures Pegaz posted overuses brown either.
Well, I do - see above :) Brown and sickly green. But, arguing about colours is a surefire way to a loop of pointlessness, so I'll pass. It's a bit like when one man's "subdued" is another's "bland", I guess.

In fact it's probably time for me to bail out of this thread altogether, because I'm starting to have a deja vu from watching similar binary discussions on other dedicated micro forums. The cultish template is that Our Machine is always best-in-everything - it has no flaws, and the alleged ones are quickly rationalized away or disproven with a non-representative demo or a solitary example (same as in many recent posts ITT).

That's something which I struggle to get along with because a) it's clearly not true b) I have no problem in talking about flaws and limitations, even in my supposed "favourites", ie Amiga/Spectrum.

So, I'm not sure why it is so hard to admit that many C64's games have suffered from lower-res and ugly colours vs its competitors. In the end it's still the best machine overall, and one I'd take to a desert island if I was forced to (on the strenght of its library of "big" games such as Pirates! thou, not the gfx itself). I have no need to perceive it as some unattainable, fantastical ideal though.
That's not disputable at all, every computer has its weaknesses, C64 is no exception.
The problem is, when the discussion is quickly transferred from the facts to the "brown blocky breadbin commode" argument, which happened very often.
However, if we want to be precise, the topic was started about the Hi-Res capabilities on the c64, we saw that they are pretty good and that's it.
The latest Atic Atac or Ultimate filmation 3d ports are probably the final proof of that..
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by akeley »

ketmar wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:24 pm
it is obvious that ZX Spectrum is far superior!

sorry again. but really, can anobody resist it? definitely not me. ;-)
Can you quote me an example from my posts where I'm saying that ZX Spectrum is far superior?

It's the second time you're doing this low-blow thing, so it shouldn't be too hard, right? ;)

And while you're looking, pay attention to the multiple times I am actually saying it about C64. There is even one where I'm saying ZX is the weakest.

Have fun :D
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Ersh »

akeley wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:12 pm Because it's possible to represent them in other colours as well, and because we are not talking about examples where brown is legitimately used, but general overuse of its many shades. I mean I suppose you could also say that this lady's dress, Arnies' blood, bird's feathers, the inscription, etc can be brown too, but this is getting a bit silly :)
Of course they can be represented by other colours, but it's never wrong to use brown where it naturally would occur. The pictures Pegaz posted aren't in any character mode and doesn't suffer the same limitations as most games, so the colour choices there were entirely up to the artists.
akeley wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:12 pm Well, I do - see above :) Brown and sickly green.
Instead of bright red and yellow? ;) False colours are used in all sorts of art.
akeley wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:12 pm In fact it's probably time for me to bail out of this thread altogether, because I'm starting to have a deja vu from watching similar binary discussions on other dedicated micro forums. The cultish template is that Our Machine is always best-in-everything - it has no flaws, and the alleged ones are quickly rationalized away or disproven with a non-representative demo or a solitary example (same as in many recent posts ITT).
I think you're being a bit unfair here, I never said the c64 was without flaws. I was genuinely interested in seeing some examples, as I never understood the whole "brown" thing. Still don't.
akeley wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:12 pm So, I'm not sure why it is so hard to admit that many C64's games have suffered from lower-res and ugly colours vs its competitors. In the end it's still the best machine overall, and one I'd take to a desert island if I was forced to (on the strenght of its library of "big" games such as Pirates! thou, not the gfx itself). I have no need to perceive it as some unattainable, fantastical ideal though.
Admit? As in you're stating a fact? I believe the "ugly" colours are a highly subjective topic, certainly nothing one must "admit" anything to. I'm not trying to win any argument here, just saying people's taste differ. And yes, most games ran at a lower resolution, never tried to deny that.

If I had to choose a single 80's micro to be stranded on a desert island with, I'd take the Spectrum any day. I don't use it because it was superior hardware-wise in any way, I use it because, to me, it has the better games. Best community as well. :)
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by PeterJ »

Can we bring this back to my original question :)
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Pegaz »

PeterJ wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:52 pm Can we bring this back to my original question :)
Here's some more detailed information that might be useful:

https://www.cosmigo.com/promotion/docs/ ... re-c64.htm
https://dustlayer.com/index-vic-ii/
https://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/ ... The_64.php
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by ketmar »

akeley wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:47 pm
ketmar wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:24 pm
it is obvious that ZX Spectrum is far superior!

sorry again. but really, can anobody resist it? definitely not me. ;-)
Can you quote me an example from my posts where I'm saying that ZX Spectrum is far superior?

It's the second time you're doing this low-blow thing, so it shouldn't be too hard, right? ;)

And while you're looking, pay attention to the multiple times I am actually saying it about C64. There is even one where I'm saying ZX is the weakest.

Have fun :D
oh, sorry, it's not an attack, it is just my weird sense of humor. i mean, Speccy fanboy should say this, and such thread should have at least one fanboy. so i'm pretending to be that one.
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Ersh »

PeterJ wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:58 pm Was this mode used for many games and was it popular?
Some Spectrum ports like Skool Daze and The Great Escape most likely used the standard bitmap mode. Elite possibly also uses it on the upper part of the screen with a raster split to change to multi-colour for the UI (similar to the BBC).
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by akeley »

Ersh wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:48 pm The pictures Pegaz posted aren't in any character mode and doesn't suffer the same limitations as most games, so the colour choices there were entirely up to the artists.
And it does not strike you as odd that they've made those colour choices in all these random pics? ;)
Ersh wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:48 pm I think you're being a bit unfair here, I never said the c64 was without flaws. I was genuinely interested in seeing some examples, as I never understood the whole "brown" thing. Still don't.
[...]
I believe the "ugly" colours are a highly subjective topic, certainly nothing one must "admit" anything to. I'm not trying to win any argument here, just saying people's taste differ.
I was using plural "you" because it seems to me that was the general consensus ITT, and I'm also recalling all the aforementioned arguments from elsewhere. Overall, yes, colours and perception are subjective - said as much myself when I said arguing about it would be pointless. And yet, I still think it's subjective to a point, as in, most people would probably agree that vibrant, natural colours (which you've called "garish") are a better choice.

Of course it does not mean people should not enjoy or create stuff with C64 palette. In a way I do it myself these days, same with the "blocky" gfx, it has its peculiar charm and gives every machine's gfx a distinct look.
Ersh wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:48 pm If I had to choose a single 80's micro to be stranded on a desert island with, I'd take the Spectrum any day. I don't use it because it was superior hardware-wise in any way, I use it because, to me, it has the better games. Best community as well. :)
Sure, it certainly has its share of unforgettable titles. I made my choice with a heavy heart but can't pass on a machine which boasts the likes of Pool Of Radiance and Pirates!

Unfortunately finding a 'community' on a desert island could pose a problem ;)
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by AndyC »

I'm not sure why they "brown" thing is the major complaint of C64 graphics. Yes brown and grey were often used as the shared colours, presumably because of the limits mentioned previously, but it was usually not too bad. It probably doesn't help that the washed out palette tended to mean that "red" looked rather more brown too though.

For me, the fact that C64 games often seemed to have a three colour background was far more jarring. The resolution trade off doesn't seem quite so good when you aren't getting the full benefit of extra colours. Of course it happens because, unlike the character map, the colour ram in the C64 is in a fixed position so it's much harder to scroll, so it's easier if the colours remain consistent on screen.
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