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BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:47 pm
by MrPixel
How does the BBC micro differ from the zx spectrum in terms of graphics, sound and control? also, what do they share? is there anything that makes the BBC micro stand out?

(for some reason, coding in assembly for the micro is harder than on zxspin)

by the way, the left and right bracket keys have been switched to arrows in Beebem. has anyone else experienced this?

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:36 pm
by PeterJ
Apart from being of a similar era there is nothing else I can think of which is similar to the Spectrum.

Sir Clive was not happy when the BBC chose the Acorn BBC rather than his ZX Spectrum as their computer of choice. If you search around there was a BBC documentary about this called Micro Men. It was also widely used in schools. It was also 2 or 3 times the price of the Spectrum and used a different CPU.

I believe it has a built in assembler.

Watch a review here:

https://youtu.be/Ge2Y7AIeEVw

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:59 pm
by MrPixel
this is the article i pulled the idea from:http://www.cracked.com/blog/revisiting- ... ern-gamer/

granted it's a lot shorter than this one (and the author really needs to add a hotkey for reset and allow a way to save to .tap or disc)

Moderation Action (PJ): I have deleted the video as it seems to show a computer screen for 5 seconds then jump straight to a leather repair video. Can you try adding the video again? If you don't do it within two hours, ask R-Tape or I to do it via a PM.

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:11 pm
by PeterJ
I'm not sure what you are asking? Those screens in the link aren't from a BBC micro.

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:27 pm
by Joefish
The BBC is very different. For a start its BASIC runs a LOT faster than Sinclair BASIC and includes an assembler for programming machine code.

Completely different CPU (6502), though it runs twice as fast as the similar 6510 in the Commodore 64. Processing-wise it's comparable in power with the Speccy, but needs a different approach to programming machine code.

It has multiple graphics modes, from simple text-only (even Teletext compatible) up to hi-res monochrome and per-pixel colour displays. But, it only has 32K of RAM so the more detailed screens can swallow most of that memory leaving little room for program code. Some games use timed interrupts to swap the screen mode part-way down the screen to save memory. Its text-only modes simply store the ASCII code of the character at each position and an INK and PAPER colour for the whole screen. You can't change the colour per-character in TEXT mode.

The pixel modes had 2, 4 or 16 colours, but the machine only actually had 8 colours. Colours 9-15 were the same 8 colours but inverting on a regular flashing cycle. You could redefine the 2, 4, or 16 colours on display to be any of the basic 8 colours or 8 flashing colours, so for example you could define two or more screen colours to appear the same.

It has multi-channel sound, and can hardware scroll the screen left and right (up and down is more complicated). But there's not much memory for screen buffering so anything other than simple scrolling games tend to flicker a lot as the display is redrawn.

There are some brilliant, colourful and noisy clones of early arcade games for it, and it was home to some highly original games (the original Elite and Sentinel, though the former suffers from flicker and the latter is slow).

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:56 pm
by Alessandro
PeterJ wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 7:36 pm If you search around there was a BBC documentary about this called Micro Men.
It was not a documentary but a fiction (or "comic drama"). And an enjoyable one, I must say :D I even translated Matt Westcott's subtitles for it into Italian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXBxV6-zamM
PeterJ wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 7:36 pmIt was also widely used in schools.
Here is a photo I took during my visit of the Cambridge Computing History Museum showing what a computer lab in a British school during the '80s would look like (click on it to enlarge it):

Image

Despite this, it was also used for game development, as Joefish pointed out. The second time I went to Rome for the presentation of the Spectrumpedia, a number of historical items were on display, including the BBC Micro used by Dino Dini to code Kick Off.

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:04 pm
by PeterJ
When I started working as a computer technician in a local College in the very late 80s they still had a BBC Econet network system and a full time network manager for it! I remember a few years later throwing about 300 BBC micros in a skip. Imagine what I could have got on eBay now!

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:09 pm
by MrPixel
this is the listed basic for my game on Beebem (sorry for the long list)

Image

i need a way to allow for a yes or no choice at line 66

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:16 pm
by PeterJ
[mention]MrPixel[/mention] I'm no BBC Micro expert but you want to look at control structures. You can then follow a path depending on the input.

http://central.kaserver5.org/Kasoft/Typ ... /Ch16.html

If you have more detailed questions I suggest you join a BBC micro forum such as stardot.

PS. You can do very similar things in Spectrum BASIC. Read the Spectrum Programming manual I sent you last month.

You seem to have moved from Atari, to Sinclair, to BBC. The C64 was very popular is the USA and has sprites available from BASIC. You may find that an option for you. The BASIC is not very good though IMHO.

The MSX is also an option. Very good BASIC (written by Microsoft) and Sprites from BASIC. Not very popular outside of Japan though. The graphics chip used in the MSX only told you there had been a sprite collision and not which sprites had collided though.

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:17 pm
by R-Tape
PeterJ wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 10:04 pm When I started working as a computer technician in a local College in the very late 80s they still had a BBC Econet network system and a full time network manager for it! I remember a few years later throwing about 300 BBC micros in a skip. Imagine what I could have got on eBay now!
:o

And I felt bad because I let 2 BBCs go to the skip at my workplace few years ago! I think they were used for data logging, and therefore probably ended up producing bona fide scientific research. I found some ZX81s and 16K Speccys during a cleanout of the more hazardous area of the Chemistry dept, I wondered if they were used for science - and they might have been, but I also found a lot of game cassettes...

[mention]MrPixel[/mention] email sent about line 66. Don't forget our Wolfman game :mrgreen:

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:21 pm
by PeterJ
[mention]Alessandro[/mention]. The Cambridge Computing History Museum is amazing. Well worth a visit.

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:12 am
by MrPixel
is there a way to get the left and right brackets to not show up as arrows?

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:39 am
by Nomad
The answer to your question...

http://bfy.tw/Hwvu

For googlephobic
Spoiler
Keyboard Mappings
-----------------

There are two main keyboard mappings available on the Options menu, default
mapping and logical mapping.

For default mapping most of the keys are the same on the Beeb and PC but
these are not:

Code: Select all

   PC               Beeb

   F10 & F11        f0
   F1-F9            f1-f9
   F12              Break
   -_               -=
   =+               ^~
   `                @
   #~               _
   ;:               ;+
   '@               :*
   End              Copy
With logical mapping the key symbols are mapped directly (for a UK PC
keyboard at least) so you get what you press. Note that logical mapping
sometimes has to change the shift key state in order to work so it can do
some unexpected things if you use it while playing a game that uses shift.
Its probably better to use default mapping when playing games.

If you do not use a UK keyboard then you may want to set up your own
mapping. Use the 'user keyboard' mapping options in BeebEm to do this and
remember to save it using the 'save preferences' option
.


The keypad +/- keys will change between the BeebEm fixed speeds.

The keypad / and * keys will save and load a quickstate file.

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:08 am
by Vampyre
As others have mentioned the BBC had an amazingly fast basic and we used them in college a lot back in the latest 80's. A friend of mine programmed a vector spaceship, fully rotatable that even included hidden line removal all in Beeb basic. Mightily impressive it was too. He later went onto work for Rare on their GBA games (and also confirmed a few years back that Mire Mare never existed - it was all in an issue of Retrogamer).

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:22 am
by Nomad
We used to use the BBC in school, all the way through infants & primary school we had them. Even when I was in secondary school you would still see them around with a mix of 186/286 PCs during the 90s :lol:

I thought the keyboard was good - it was a solid bit of kit. But then you would expect that for the money they were asking. You would see all these cool peripherals and expansions for the BBC but it was in magazines. Like if I was an adult in the 80s sure I would have gotten a BBC Micro with Tube and a z80 co-processor. But besides the graphics tablet, econet and the logo robot I don't think many people ever got to see the really cutting edge stuff like the co-processor, the hard drive etc.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/2 ... ory_at_30/

The Acorn Electron was more likely to be found in the home, but it kind of never got the traction it should have with developers. Imagine a crippled BBC micro and you have an idea of the Electron. If you want to compare two systems of similar spec its better to use this. I loved my electron but software wise it never came close to what was available on the spectrum or commodore. I should say I would have swapped my Electron for a BBC Micro in a second if given the chance. It was a no-brainer lol.

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:22 pm
by Seven.FFF
I would have killed for a skipped BBC Micro. My first serious coding was done on one, and I even sold some educational programs. We had them at college too, although they’d got rid of them by the third year in 89.

They seem rather expensive now due to all the retro idiots driving up the prices, and the shipping here would be horrendous :(

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:44 pm
by Nomad
It was weird how most of the educational machines ended up in a landfill. I think its something to do with the way that schools/colleges wrote off old stock. You rarely saw that stuff going to boot sales or charity shops. It's a shame when you think how much all that stuff cost originally even with the education discount. I get the feeling this is what created the scarcity you see now with the BBC B on ebay. There just were not that many units that were saved.

Plus I think the mindset was that the PC was replacing all of this junk anyway, who would have wanted a Beeb when the retro guys mostly went for commodore or spectrum, if you had money you splurged on an Atari ST or Amiga, then later a PC or Apple II. :lol:

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:49 pm
by Joefish
Fairly mean-spirited not to offer them to kids to take home!
But they'd have probably been violating some sort of health and safety directive or something.
Although it has to be said, if you did find a landfill full of Beebs from 30 years ago, most of them would probably still work... :mrgreen:

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 5:29 pm
by PeterJ
Yes, I seem to recall at the time we offered them out, but nobody wanted them. Everything was changing to IBM PCs with twin 5.25" floppy disks and a green screen (They were £2500 back then). That was the brave new world. If only we had imagined the world of eBay back then and stored them away. I think the company we used removed the valuable metals from the PCBs.

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 7:43 pm
by PeterJ
I have not tried it in great detail, but you can program in BBC BASIC via Windows with:

http://www.bbcbasic.co.uk/bbcwin/bbcwin.html

The free version is fine for smaller programs.

Image

Getting back to the Spectrum though [mention]MrPixel[/mention], this is a very good modern introduction to Spectrum BASIC with lots of colourful games to type in and play:

http://gazzapper.com/games/zx-spectrum-code-club/

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:50 pm
by MrPixel
that's in british pounds right? you do now i'm on american soil right?

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:52 pm
by PeterJ
Yes, Amazon US have it for $13.50

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 11:03 am
by Nomad
Here is an interesting overview of the Electron.

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpE-E_7lNJI[/media]

It's probably the closest thing you are going to get to a BBC Micro on original hardware in the US at a reasonable price (shipped). Assuming you have a PAL -> NTSC converter lying around your house.

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:43 pm
by chinnyhill10
I rescued my BBC Master from the Physics department of my 6th form college in 1995. Was minutes from going into a skip. I've only JUST got the final bits of dried chewing gum out of one of the expansion cartridge connectors!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I86s8cWfRso

Re: BBC micro differences and similarities

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:08 pm
by Guesser
That's pretty neat. At least compared to one of my Model Bs that has SCIENCES melted into the lid with a soldering iron