Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

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Einar Saukas
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Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by Einar Saukas »

Everyone should have noticed that ZXDB updates have not been happening as often lately, because both [mention]R-Tape[/mention] and myself have been extremely busy. However we expect this problem will be solved very soon, because we are now migrating to a much more productive ZXDB management tool, that I developed recently. In practice, this change won't directly affect users here (everybody will continue to use [mention]Mike Davies[/mention]'s excellent Upload & Edit Facility), but it will allow the ZXDB team to work much faster on adding corrections and new content to ZXDB. Then we will finally be able to revise every contribution posted in this forum, to finish processing everything we didn't have time to change yet.

One remaining problem is that it's quite difficult to keep track of what contributions we already processed or not. Also I think it's important to provide feedback to users when their contributions are added to ZXDB, but when it's a long thread, posting replies to posts from several pages before, can be very confusing.

To address these issues, I would like to make a proposal: we could have a small ZXDB "marking" image at the bottom of each post (kinda like in my post here), whenever the content of that post gets incorporated into ZXDB. This marking would provide a subtle but useful feedback to users, and help the ZXDB team to ensure no contributions were missed. It would work kinda like the clickable "like or "love"" buttons currently available in posts, except the ZXDB markings would have a specific purpose, to be added by the ZXDB team only.

Technically, the easiest solution would be contributors here giving us permission ([mention]R-Tape[/mention] and myself) to edit their posts, exclusively to add this ZXDB "marking" at the bottom, and NEVER change anything else obviously. Do you agree?

BTW let me take this chance to write, once again, a big THANK YOU to everybody that keeps contributing to ZXDB! :)

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druellan
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by druellan »

I think it is a neat idea. I had that problem with a couple of posts, and one even got mentioned on the updates, but nobody actually merged the changes into the database, so, this can also be useful to the team, for a better coordination.
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by 1024MAK »

@Einar Saukas - so what you are really asking, is for you to have moderator powers?

Would this be for all sections of the forum (global) or just for specific sections?

R-Tape is already a global moderator. So his status would not be affected.

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Rorthron
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by Rorthron »

If [mention]Einar Saukas[/mention] is to be granted the powers of an admin or moderator, he should be designated as admin or moderator.
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by PeterJ »

I will take a look in the phpBB control panel and see what the options are. I agree if someone has admin rights, then their account needs to be marked as such so it's visible and transparent to all users.

I do think it's a great idea [mention]Einar Saukas[/mention] and will avoid duplication of effort and let users know then changes have been actioned and can be expected to be seen in the next update. Most importantly if it saves you and [mention]R-Tape[/mention] time then it's a must.
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R-Tape
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by R-Tape »

I'd like a bit more time to think about this. If it's mainly me doing the collating, then I'm concerned it will create more work as I'll feel the pressure to get it marked quickly.

It would also make it more difficult for me to ignore ones I disagree with :mrgreen:

[mention]druellan[/mention], please say when things are missed, or announced as done but not. Sometimes they have been missed, sometimes they have been done, but a bug stops it showing on the site. This happened with Vallation128 for example: I uploaded inlays twice, as I couldn't see them, but it turned out a permissions flag stopped them appearing.
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by PeterJ »

I was going to bring up that whilst some change requests are obviously clear cut based on newly found evidence, some may need further investigation and research.

You shouldn't ever feel rushed [mention]R-Tape[/mention]. This is by far the most up-to-date community driven opensource database of Spectrum software. A few weeks or months to make changes isn't going to worry anybody.

I should also mention that [mention]Mike Davies[/mention] is in discussion with [mention]R-Tape[/mention] and I about marking changes on the update form as completed too.
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by Rorthron »

Would it not be easier and better just to reply to posts with the "ZXDB marking", rather than edit them?

Also once the upload tool goes live, won't that replace change requests in the forum? Then we don't even need to mark posts.
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by PeterJ »

Rorthron wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:33 am Would it not be easier and better just to reply to posts with the "ZXDB marking", rather than edit them?
The only trouble there is if you were marking one as complete 6 posts back, which would mean quoting the message which may end up looking untidy?
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by Rorthron »

PeterJ wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:36 am
Rorthron wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:33 am Would it not be easier and better just to reply to posts with the "ZXDB marking", rather than edit them?
The only trouble there is if you were marking one as complete 6 posts back, which would mean quoting the message which may end up looking untidy?
In future put each correction in its own thread. Personally I think that would be very helpful for tracking changes, anyway.
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by R-Tape »

How many times have things been missed? Is any of this extra work necessary?
Also once the upload tool goes live, won't that replace change requests in the forum?
Definitely not. The upload tool is brilliant for file uploads, but terrible for fixes, removals and replacements (detailed here). I'm going to recommend keeping those to concise lists and threads.

The 'little bugs in the database' thread is a perfect example, that makes things very easy.
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Einar Saukas
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by Einar Saukas »

Rorthron wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:38 am If @Einar Saukas is to be granted the powers of an admin or moderator, he should be designated as admin or moderator.
Good point. It would be misleading to give me admin/moderator powers without indicating it. But it would be misleading to credit me as admin/moderator when I wouldn't be administering or moderating...

It seems I'm opening a new can of worms!
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by Ralf »

As a person who uploads some stuff to ZXDB from time to time I agree to everything which will make the process easier 8-)

Including editing my posts if it would be handy. I also have no problem with Einar becoming a moderator if required.
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by Rorthron »

Einar Saukas wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:35 am
Rorthron wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:38 am If @Einar Saukas is to be granted the powers of an admin or moderator, he should be designated as admin or moderator.
Good point. It would be misleading to give me admin/moderator powers without indicating it. But it would be misleading to credit me as admin/moderator when I wouldn't be administering or moderating...

It seems I'm opening a new can of worms!
You can be an admin without being a moderator. Different people on the team can have different roles.

But this is really one for PeterJ, R-Tape and Ivanzx.
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Juan F. Ramirez
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by Juan F. Ramirez »

Why not create a new forum section instead of 'little bugs in the database'thread? Or use 'website' or 'ZXDB discussion' sections instead for this.

This section would include thread by thread every fault detected by users. Once detected and solved, the thread is closed.

I don't know if this is what Einar meant.
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by 1024MAK »

It should also be pointed out that:
  1. There is a big difference between the roles and powers between administrators and moderators. Admin’s have much more power and access to much more information.
  2. The area of control that moderators have can be across all of the forum (global) or restricted to certain sub-forums. If the moderator rights are restricted to certain sub-forums, they have no ability to edit, delete or move posts in areas outside their allotted sub-forums.
  3. The actual powers that moderators have is determined by what the admin’s decide and select.
  4. Both admin’s and moderators can see more information (than normal members) on members details and what has been reported or modified. Again there are differences between the information that admin’s and mod’s can access.
Expanding on what Juan said:

In terms of ease of updating, creating one or more new sub-forum looks the best way to go from my point of view. Each issue should be posted individually (with a meaningful title). Then it is easy for whoever is doing the updates to see if they have read the report (new post flag).

When they commence work on the issue, they can post a reply saying so. They can also use the bookmarks system to remember which issues they are working on.

When the issue is sorted, or a problem stops progress, they can reply giving the details. If/when the issue is sorted, they can use the “report post” facility to request that a moderator locks the thread. That then stops someone later from posting about a new issue in the same thread.

This system would be completely transparent to all members.

Shoot me down if this does not look like it is a workable system... :mrgreen:

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Einar Saukas
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by Einar Saukas »

PeterJ wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:50 amI will take a look in the phpBB control panel and see what the options are.
Since you will take a look into this... We already have a like/love button in every post, and this like/love icon can be customized in phpBB. I wouldn't want to sacrifice this functionality here, but perhaps there could be a second similar button, customized for ZXDB? And considering that new users would probably misunderstanding its purpose and may click everywhere, using it could be restricted to a group of users.

However I don't know if that's even possible, or how much work it would require. But if it worked this way, it would avoid the need to edit posts thus solve most of the concerns mentioned here.
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by Einar Saukas »

R-Tape wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:12 amI'd like a bit more time to think about this. If it's mainly me doing the collating, then I'm concerned it will create more work as I'll feel the pressure to get it marked quickly.
We could adopt the convention of marking posts only after the information is released in a new ZXDB update. This way nobody would feel disappointed about their posts not being marked immediately.
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by Einar Saukas »

PeterJ wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:27 amI should also mention that @Mike Davies is in discussion with @R-Tape and I about marking changes on the update form as completed too.
Good idea!
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by PeterJ »

Einar Saukas wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:31 pm
PeterJ wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:50 amI will take a look in the phpBB control panel and see what the options are.
Since you will take a look into this... We already have a like/love button in every post, and this like/love icon can be customized in phpBB. I wouldn't want to sacrifice this functionality here, but perhaps there could be a second similar button, customized for ZXDB? And considering that new users would probably misunderstanding its purpose and may click everywhere, using it could be restricted to a group of users.

However I don't know if that's even possible, or how much work it would require. But if it worked this way, it would avoid the need to edit posts thus solve most of the concerns mentioned here.
Hi [mention]Einar Saukas[/mention]

The Like/Love button is a plugin. I will look to see if there is something similar for our purpose.
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Einar Saukas
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by Einar Saukas »

PeterJ wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:57 pm
Einar Saukas wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:31 pm Since you will take a look into this... We already have a like/love button in every post, and this like/love icon can be customized in phpBB. I wouldn't want to sacrifice this functionality here, but perhaps there could be a second similar button, customized for ZXDB? And considering that new users would probably misunderstanding its purpose and may click everywhere, using it could be restricted to a group of users.

However I don't know if that's even possible, or how much work it would require. But if it worked this way, it would avoid the need to edit posts thus solve most of the concerns mentioned here.
Hi @Einar Saukas

The Like/Love button is a plugin. I will look to see if there is something similar for our purpose.
Thank you!
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by Rorthron »

1024MAK wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:00 pmExpanding on what Juan said:

In terms of ease of updating, creating one or more new sub-forum looks the best way to go from my point of view. Each issue should be posted individually (with a meaningful title). Then it is easy for whoever is doing the updates to see if they have read the report (new post flag).

When they commence work on the issue, they can post a reply saying so. They can also use the bookmarks system to remember which issues they are working on.

When the issue is sorted, or a problem stops progress, they can reply giving the details.
To me this seems like the simplest solution, if you want to go down the path of tracking and recording changes that have been implemented. But it doesn't need a new subforum; the existing ZXDB section can be used.
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by druellan »

R-Tape wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:12 am @druellan, please say when things are missed, or announced as done but not. Sometimes they have been missed, sometimes they have been done, but a bug stops it showing on the site. This happened with Vallation128 for example: I uploaded inlays twice, as I couldn't see them, but it turned out a permissions flag stopped them appearing
Oh, it is already solved. Wasn't a compain, you guys are doing an awesome job, but just to point out that even when we follow the procedures, things can get messy, and everything that improves the communication is welcome.
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by R-Tape »

Einar Saukas wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:11 am Everyone should have noticed that ZXDB updates have not been happening as often lately, because both @R-Tape and myself have been extremely busy
As often as what? The last update was just over a week ago! More often than many previous months. Not all the logged changes were completed, but we won't have to wait long.
but when it's a long thread, posting replies to posts from several pages before, can be very confusing.
I don't agree—If you quote, the person gets flagged already. I struggle to imagine that most would bother to search back through a long thread looking for a 'done' flag.
1024MAK wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:00 pm In terms of ease of updating, creating one or more new sub-forum looks the best way to go from my point of view.
Why do we need to change anything? What is currently not working?

From my point of view, collating updates should go like this:

-Brand new games: announce in the Brand New Software thread (Ralf is the stalwart there :-)) and make publicly available so everyone can enjoy it immediately.*
-MIA, uMIA. Use the upload form, and announce so people can enjoy it. Include as much info as possible (preferably including screenshots), and a comment to make it clear why this should be added.
-Small fixes: use an active 'small bugs' thread in the ZXDB Discussion part of the forum. Be as concise as possible, and include as much relevant info as possible. That's what Ale, dru, 8bitAG, Juan and others are already doing.
-Bigger fixes, or fixes that need discussion: should have their own thread in ZXDB Discussion. Like that idiot that started the 'Maze Genre thread :D

Some of the above may appear via a sideways route, like email, something discovered in the 'Games' part of the forum, a news item from Andre, or a game author starts their own thread for their game (as I hope they will), or anywhere on the forum from a newcomer that doesn't know the ropes.

A list of details is announced at the same time as the update.

At the moment, I 'like' a post if I want the author to know I've seen it (unless I comment). I kind of like the idea of a 'ZXDB flag' similar to the 'like' button, but my concern is that it ends up like a booking-out form for a shed key—never, rarely, sometimes, or always used, depending on the phase of the moon.

I don't think we need to lock threads when the action is completed either. Something new may crop up and be relevant.

Basically—IMO don't change anything!

* If you want to be especially helpful then use the upload form for files and screenshots, but bear in mind that they may have already been done, or already uploaded (don't let that discourage you, but it may not be 'your' screenshot that you see.. The important part is reporting the news though.
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Einar Saukas
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Re: Proposal: ZXDB marking in posts?

Post by Einar Saukas »

R-Tape wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:01 amI kind of like the idea of a 'ZXDB flag' similar to the 'like' button, but my concern is that it ends up like a booking-out form for a shed key—never, rarely, sometimes, or always used, depending on the phase of the moon.
I understand your point, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the current process. It's just that this flag would help a lot to ensure we didn't miss anything, especially in threads like this and this.
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