New WoS and ZXDB

[djnzx48]

BTW about my last test, it was based on a list downloaded 2 days ago (June 16, 2020) from new WoS.

If we run the same test using a list downloaded yesterday or today, there will be 1 difference, because this comment was edited yesterday:

https://worldofspectrum.org/archive/sof ... rs-persson

This page says "Updated On: June 17, 2020". It seems they have now started to update new WoS manually.

This is even more bizarre. Between the stupidity of redoing years of work already done, or the immorality of using ZXDB in disguise while criticizing it... they have chosen to do BOTH?

I see they have a 'Change Request' form on each page for people to suggest corrections. Perhaps that was just a one-off addition from someone visiting the site?

[moroz1999]

I see they have a 'Change Request' form on each page for people to suggest corrections. Perhaps that was just a one-off addition from someone visiting the site?

Yep, this actually works. I've used it yesterday to suggest a country change for myself, and admin have changed it.

[cha05e90]

Yep, this actually works. I've used it yesterday to suggest a country change for myself, and admin have changed it.

Ah, ok. That makes sense. So they want us to bring WoS DB to ZXDB 2020 state. May last some months/years, but it's not impossible. Especially when you copy and paste stuff from Spectrum Computing to WoS' change requests...

[Vampyre]

Yep, this actually works. I've used it yesterday to suggest a country change for myself, and admin have changed it.

Ah, ok. That makes sense. So they want us to bring WoS DB to ZXDB 2020 state. May last some months/years, but it's not impossible. Especially when you copy and paste stuff from Spectrum Computing to WoS' change requests...

Yup, like you say, certainly not impossible. The only thing that makes it unlikely for me is Einar mentioning the new WOS IDs he added that suddenly appeared in new WOS (and I take it have now disappeared?). The likelihood of adding these, in the exact same order Einar has to generate the same ID, is highly unlikely without an import. Plus - given the comments made by WOS admins in regards to ZXDB over the years - why would they give a damn what ID's ZXDB is using? So I think this data is an import - which once you know the structures of both databases shouldn't be that hard to do, given time.

[ketmar]

i wonder if WoS will start adding new software in random order now. and will they blame ZXDB for being "desynced" then?

their stupid ego games only makes things worse for everyone. i still hope that they will come to their senses, and will simply import the whole ZXDB (with proper credits). a snowball's chance in hell, i know. but i still hope.

[PeterJ]

i still hope that they will come to their senses, and will simply import the whole ZXDB (with proper credits).

100% agree with that.

[Pegaz]

i wonder if WoS will start adding new software in random order now. and will they blame ZXDB for being "desynced" then?

their stupid ego games only makes things worse for everyone. i still hope that they will come to their senses, and will simply import the whole ZXDB (with proper credits). a snowball's chance in hell, i know. but i still hope.

We can hope, but not too much.
It’s been a whole day since Einar posted his findings on the wos forum and there’s absolutely no response, just complete ignoring.
Obviously Rorthron was absolutely right, when he predicted something like this.
This is extremely shameful and dishonorable behavior, but I can't say I'm surprised.
After all, this silence is also the answer, loud and clear...

[Ralf]

i still hope that they will come to their senses, and will simply import the whole ZXDB (with proper credits).

Yes, I suppose now that their plan was to add content of ZXDB partially and in random order with some slight changes to pretend they are doing it all themselves from the scratch.

I wouldn't care about it at all but they also made this "Change Request" form so people could submit their corrections. So I guess some well intentioned people not realising what's going on may start to send them some submission and corrections.

And this way we are going to have two ZX Spectrum databases comming from the common source being developed independently. This is going to be a nightmare

[hitm4n]

If this were me, i would write off WOS as dead in the water (its what i did when SpectrumComputing started). What can it give us thats not provided by SpectrumComputing? (I would like to know, seriously.)

I would re-write the "acceptible use policies" for the database usage and specifically deny all use by Lee Fogarty and the WOS domain. You lot are all being very diplomatic, but this sh*t with Lee has gone on for years and this is what it adds up to? This has to stop, he's taking the absolute P?s?...

I'm VERY interested in what he says about this.

[Ast A. Moore]

What can it give us thats not provided by SpectrumComputing? (I would like to know, seriously.)

Tons of historical and useful technical information on its forums. It’s a goldmine.

[hitm4n]

Genuine question. That is fine, a good point. How does that require the ZXDB data ?

[ketmar]

I would re-write the "acceptible use policies" for the database usage and specifically deny all use by Lee Fogarty and the WOS domain.

that won't stop 'em, tho. there are rules for using ZXDB already, and those rules weren't respected. you can add more rules, but it will be easy to ignore them regardless of their number. ;-)

besides, this will turn ZXDB into proprietary database. you can have either "free for anyone" (respecting the license, of course), or "proprietary", there is no middle ground there.

if anything, such clause will only make things worse. i don't believe that anybody here wants a war with WoS. quite the contrary, we want this nonsense to stop (sorry for talking for other people, but i think i'm right here ;-). Einar did everything he could to make this happen. the ball is in WoS team ballpark now.

[djnzx48]

I would re-write the "acceptible use policies" for the database usage and specifically deny all use by Lee Fogarty and the WOS domain.

That doesn't sound like a good idea at all, and it would go against the entire 'open' nature of the database.

This situation reminds me of what happened with Wikia years ago. Despite a whole lot of wikis migrating from there after it became really obnoxious, it's always the ad-ridden Wikia articles that appear at the top of search results. Since their policy didn't allow the migrated-from wikis to be deleted, they stick around and continue to get updated by people who don't know any better.

[PeterJ]

Genuine question. That is fine, a good point. How does that require the ZXDB data ?

[mention]Ast A. Moore[/mention] is right about the WoS forum with posts way back into the past which are useful and of historical interest. The forum as you say [mention]hitm4n[/mention] does not have anything to do with ZXDB. We can split them into two separate entities.

[PeterJ]

I don't believe that anybody here wants a war with WoS. quite the contrary, we want this nonsense to stop (sorry for talking for other people, but i think i'm right here . Einar did everything he could to make this happen. the ball is in WoS team ballpark now.

You are completely correct there.

[PeterJ]

And this way we are going to have two ZX Spectrum databases comming from the common source being developed independently. This is going to be a nightmare

Agreed. This would be foolish. As [mention]Einar Saukas[/mention] says, if Lee and Richard have been caught out using ZXDB (which obviously they are quite entitled to do as long as the open source license is adhered to), at least use the latest version.

[PeterJ]

I would re-write the "acceptible use policies" for the database usage and specifically deny all use by Lee Fogarty and the WOS domain.

That doesn't sound like a good idea at all, and it would go against the entire 'open' nature of the database.

Agreed, [mention]djnzx48[/mention]

[hitm4n]

For how many years are we continuing to tolerate this idiot? He just lies to everyone and accuses people of nonsense and GETS MONEY FROM IT!

Einars DB and everyone that has contributed to it, i'm blown away. Seriously, the ongoing work done here by a great many of you guys, including the running of this site is awesome. I'm all for the openess of it too, the sites that use and present this data in so many ways is awesone, tips sites, map sites etc. ZXDB for me is the point of truth, the complete data pakage, ever growing and updated. Top stuff.

I also agree, Einar must be using some infinite tolerance pokes. I don't have that poke and mine ran out years ago. Einar, i don't know how you do it.

You guys are right. Changing the policy would be silly, and won't stop them if any api can connect and get that data. I think the forum over at WOS is useful, it should survive, but i'd rather see Lee retire, take defeat on the chin than keep himself and his precious ego and credibility intact (credibility which, for me, was totally lost years ago, how is he still getting away with it?). Hindsight of course, but i wish Martijn chose someone else to take over WOS all those years ago.

[Pegaz]

if anything, such clause will only make things worse. i don't believe that anybody here wants a war with WoS. quite the contrary, we want this nonsense to stop (sorry for talking for other people, but i think i'm right here . Einar did everything he could to make this happen. the ball is in WoS team ballpark now.

For now, they are pretending, that the ball does not exist at all.
The Einar response to Chandler's false claims was completely ignored, as was this latest finding on the use of ZXDB.
Anyone who thinks we are dealing with reasonable people is greatly mistaken.
If it were different, we wouldn't even get into this situation.

[4thRock]

I think the best attitude is to move on.
Einar's detailed explanations have set the record straight.

I don't see the point in giving much more attention to WOS here.
Why not ask these questions there, on the WOS forums ?

[Patrik Rak]

What can it give us thats not provided by SpectrumComputing? (I would like to know, seriously.)

Tons of historical and useful technical information on its forums. It’s a goldmine.

My thoughts exactly. If I think just about all those threads I was involved in, about timing, contention, RNGs, PZX, Z80 flags, AY noise, tape loaders, protections, path finding, and who knows what else, it would make me very sad if it was to disappear...

[cha05e90]

Tons of historical and useful technical information on its forums. It’s a goldmine.

Erm, in theory: yes. Practically: no. I'm a semi-fresh resurrected ZX Spectrum user - kickstarted back to Sinclair in 2017 with the Kickstarter project you-know-which-one. While waiting for the ZX Spectrum Next to become true I fetched my own, old ZX Spectrum 48k from the attic and the journey began...

So anything between 1991/1992 (approx. the last time I used my ZX Spectrum) and 2017 was new to me and I began to dive into the most relevant resources on the web. And guess what? The WoS forum is - at least for me - completely useless. *This* forum is something that is really useful, searchable etc. - and of course some of the other Speccy related sites. Maybe it's easier for people who "grew up" with WoS and it's (I suppose) original forum to steer through that mess - but it's not for me, really.

[akeley]

If this were me, i would write off WOS as dead in the water (its what i did when SpectrumComputing started). What can it give us thats not provided by SpectrumComputing? (I would like to know, seriously.)

I would re-write the "acceptible use policies" for the database usage and specifically deny all use by Lee Fogarty and the WOS domain. You lot are all being very diplomatic, but this sh*t with Lee has gone on for years and this is what it adds up to? This has to stop, he's taking the absolute P?s?...

I understand this has been going on for years and a lot of people are very emotional (ie %@$#&*!!1!) about it.

But the fact is that worldofspectrum.org is not just some website - it's nearly a brand, if we might talk about such in the retro computing world. It's very well known and is being linked to from all over the web. It's a main port of call for casual Spectrum users and fans, who are unaware of all the internal drama, and it will remain to be such for quite possibly a long time (unless The Management manages to break it completely). Even I still have to use it, because Speccymania Gamebase has WoS links inside.

For these reasons I hope they will sort their shizz out and provide ZXDB-up-to-date quality service to all these people. Those who know what went down, know, and that's that, and there's a record of it too. But I don't think it'd be wise to advance the toxicity, and conduct some restrictive moves, just best be the bigger man and let them do whatever. A crippled WoS is not good for the worldwide Spectrum community and popularization of this great machine.

And of course I hope that SC will continue to thrive and grow, because it's not only the best Spectrum database frontend but also a really awesome community.

[PeterJ]

But the fact is that worldofspectrum.org is not just some website - it's nearly a brand

You are right there about the WoS brand (It certainly was the excellent during its golden years). The more that all of us can do to spread awareness (via social media and other means), and promote the benefits of all the sites that use ZXDB (Not just SC) the better.

[Ralf]

But the fact is that worldofspectrum.org is not just some website - it's nearly a brand

The more that all of us can do to spread awareness (via social media and other means), and promote the benefits of all the sites that use ZXDB (Not just SC) the better.

The problem is that there is a lot of casual Spectrum fans who don't follow the events too closely and still believe
that WOS is the greatest Spectrum website in the web while it's not true for several years.

When they want to discuss something or upload a missing game they will come to WOS, not here.

So yes, spreading awareness about places like SC is necessary. It's not going to be always nice as WOS even today has its own fanboys
who will be fighting you but it is necessary.