New WoS and ZXDB

[Mike Davies]

2. PHP-FPM cannot be used instead of Apache. It can be used with Apache OR with nginx (or with any other web server). Am I wrong with this one?

PHP-FPM can be used instead of mod_php. Mod_php is an Apache extension that put the full PHP runtime into each Apache child process.

I don't think SC uses PHP-FPM, but HHVM instead. Which is a facebook-optimised PHP runtime.

[polomint]

[mention]Mike Davies[/mention] Yes we get that you know a lot about sh*te.. But guess what ( as you probably already know), different instances don't work the same way..... I run the same sh*te for over 100 thousand users across 15 countries, so I know that what you say is true, but not necessarily true for the sh*t I do.

Do not assume something that you have no idea about,.... ( I was told that at 8 yrs old, and it holds true today at 48 years old)..

[moroz1999]

PHP-FPM can be used instead of mod_php. Mod_php is an Apache extension that put the full PHP runtime into each Apache child process.

I don't think SC uses PHP-FPM, but HHVM instead. Which is a facebook-optimised PHP runtime.

But you still need some http server, whether it is FPM or mod_php. And it is Apache on SC. And I am pretty sure that there is no HHVM on SC, there is Apache + PHP-FPM, which are effective enough for SC needs.

[Ralf]

[mention]polomint[/mention]
I believe you are a friend of Richard and Lee.
So maybe tell them that wiping traces and pretending that they don't use ZXDB is simply stupid as
the evidence is overwhelming.
Maybe they'll listen to you if they don't want to talk to Einar and other people.

If they just admit it, this discussion will be over.

[ketmar]

If they just admit it, this discussion will be over.

it is too late. if they'll do it, they would have to admit that they were lying all along, and were trying to cover their traces. considering the hyperinflated ego of some WoS team members it is very unlikely that they will agree to accept their wrongdoings. even if we all will promise to never ever talk about that again. alas.

[polomint]

@polomint
I believe you are a friend of Richard and Lee.
So maybe tell them that wiping traces and pretending that they don't use ZXDB is simply stupid as
the evidence is overwhelming.
Maybe they'll listen to you if they don't want to talk to Einar and other people.

If they just admit it, this discussion will be over.

Yes, Ralf I am, but I don't care who is wrong or right, I will tell them to f*ckoff either way.

I have no allegiances, I don't care. I have more important things in life to care about.

I just wish that this could be sorted, quickly, amicable, and decently tbh.

[Ralf]

I just wish that this could be sorted, quickly, amicable, and decently tbh.

Just like all/most of us.
One remark - being silent won't sort it out.

[Guesser]

I have no allegiances, I don't care. I have more important things in life to care about.

Hence posting belligerent responses on two forums instead of just ignoring it like all the other threads about things you don't care about...

[Vampyre]

I have no allegiances, I don't care. I have more important things in life to care about.

Hence posting belligerent responses on two forums instead of just ignoring it like all the other threads about things you don't care about...

Exactly. Polo, I've enjoyed your posts on wos for a long time but you've come on here, and on WoS, and acted like the SC guys have done something wrong because they've dared to highlight some uncomfortable truths. If you truly don't care then leave this alone and let those who do continue.

[Einar Saukas]

I just wish that this could be sorted, quickly, amicable, and decently tbh.

That's basically what I have been trying to do for the last 4 years. As I mentioned before, you will find literally hundreds of posts from me at WoS forum trying to make it happen.

I'm simply asking people to stop accusing me of "stealing" old WoS (when it was provided with consent), also give proper credit when using other people's contributions instead of trying to disguise it as their own. These are not unreasonable requests, are they?

Again, new WoS is welcome to use ZXDB, like everyone else. There's absolutely no need to do it in such a dishonest way.

[Mike Davies]

PHP-FPM can be used instead of mod_php. Mod_php is an Apache extension that put the full PHP runtime into each Apache child process.

I don't think SC uses PHP-FPM, but HHVM instead. Which is a facebook-optimised PHP runtime.

But you still need some http server, whether it is FPM or mod_php. And it is Apache on SC. And I am pretty sure that there is no HHVM on SC, there is Apache + PHP-FPM, which are effective enough for SC needs.

Gosh, you are right, sorry! SC is Apache running PHP7 as a module.
And it most certainly is effective enough for SC.

[Vampyre]

For the record, I have recently received some communications.

It was a private communication, so I am not at liberty to reproduce it here. And no please don’t ask. No one has ever managed to prise any private information out of me in the last 25 years, so don’t waste your or my time.

However, I think everyone in this topic has made the comments they want. So now may be the time to let this topic go quiet.

Mark

Sorry Mark, but no. All you're saying here is a much politer way of polo's "put up or shut up". Going quiet is exactly what they want - i.e. ignore it long enough and it will go away. And it shouldn't. Yes, in the great scheme of things polo's correct - it doesn't matter all that much and there's worse things going on in the world - but that doesn't mean they should get away with it.

Fair enough you've had some communication that's led to some change of mind or inner peace. But bear in mind the rest of us haven't had that luxury - and, you know what, it feels like that insider knowledge that has festered inside WoS since Lee took over that only the select few are ever privy to. Am I alone in feeling over the last five years, as a long standing member since the forums started in the late 90's/early 00's, that I'm a fringe member not allowed in on the joke?

I've stood up for WoS many a time, defending it on the forums in the early takeover and even received a not-very-nice email when I'm, get this, tracked down. But no longer - I've had it up to the neck with WoS's antics. It's time for WoS, and two members in particular, to stand up and be counted. To reply to the nasty accusations that one of them has made. For the owner to finally become transparent in what he does with that site, just like SC does. It's an absolute sh*t-show at the moment and it's about time they became accountable for their actions.

So keep on doing what you're doing, Einar, you have my full support. It's took a hell of a lot for me to post this and press that Submit button as I'm a glass half-full guy in general and like to see the good in people. In my opinion it's now up to Lee and Richard to start joining the discussion and STOP IGNORING IT. Start talking, admit what you've done and we can all move on and work together for Christ's sake. Nobody really cares all that much that ZXDB has been used to populate some of Infoseek 2 - I'm happy that they have, as many others have said too. Ignoring all communication, hoping it will eventually go away, is just narcissistic arrogance.

[ketmar]

i can only add that i personally have no interest in pointing fingers too. that WoS team can simply write: "we were wrong. we are sorry." and it will be enough to forget about the whole drama. no need to write Official Letters or something, just come here and say those simple words.

i believe that other people here will be more than happy with that too. nobody wants the war, it hurts not only SC and WoS sites, but the whole Speccy community.

but here's some thing that cannot be done: we won't simply put it under the rug, because "it is bad for the community, so let's not talk about it in public". no. nobody can steal the work of other people, paint the very same people as ones who stole everything, and hope to get away with that. it simply doesn't work this way.

yes, people are upset, and people want to talk about that. it's not like we're bullying Lee for nothing, isn't it? there are simply no valid reasons for their behaviour. they're caught red-handed. there is simply no way to get out of that without reputation loss. but nobody wants their blood, and nobody wants to "take over WoS site". so they can simply admit their wrongdoings, apologise, stop accusing Einar of "stealing data", and adhere to ZXDB license. once they'll do it, the case will be closed forever.

[1024MAK]

Sorry Mark, but no. All you're saying here is a much politer way of polo's "put up or shut up". Going quiet is exactly what they want - i.e. ignore it long enough and it will go away. And it shouldn't.

That is NOT what I am saying.

Fair enough you've had some communication that's led to some change of mind or inner peace. But bear in mind the rest of us haven't had that luxury - and, you know what, it feels like that insider knowledge that has festered inside WoS since Lee took over that only the select few are ever privy to. Am I alone in feeling over the last five years, as a long standing member since the forums started in the late 90's/early 00's, that I'm a fringe member not allowed in on the joke?

I certainly don’t have any inner peace as a result of this.

I've stood up for WoS many a time

This is not about standing up for WoS, or defending WoS or defending the two people you are talking about.

Einar, you have my full support.

I have no problem with you saying that, but despite my personal feelings, I’m trying not to take sides, I’m trying to be independent and impartial.

In my opinion it's now up to Lee and Richard to start joining the discussion and STOP IGNORING IT. Start talking, admit what you've done and we can all move on and work together for Christ's sake. Nobody really cares all that much that ZXDB has been used to populate some of Infoseek 2 - I'm happy that they have, as many others have said too. Ignoring all communication, hoping it will eventually go away, is just narcissistic arrogance.

Again, despite my personal feelings, I’m trying not to take sides.

My aim, as I have indicated before, was to see if I could try to turn this thing around and try to get the community working together a bit more.

Please note none of the following is aimed at any particular individual. Each person reading this needs to consider if it may apply to them...
Yes people have said nasty things. People have done nasty things. Nothing can erase the history. Nothing can undo the bitterness that has happened. But the only way for the community to come together, is for the fighting (for want of a more suitable word) to stop. If the fighting was to stop, if the people involved were to step back and put their emotions aside, if they were to think about where this is going. Maybe, just maybe they would see that all that they are achieving is damage. Some of them are damaging their own interests and maybe their own dreams. Others are using this as a method, a channel to to put in public their frustrations, their disappointment, and maybe their anger (possibly from some long standing issues in the past). Whatever, the result at the moment is a large split and continuing damage to the whole scene. If left unchecked, the fractures will continue. This has happened elsewhere and the result is that parts of the scene, parts of the community will end up dying back and shrinking as they become less popular. The bad vibes however may infect other areas as well. Is this really what people want?

Sharing is good, helping one another is good. Fighting over intangible things like who used who’s data, or who’s copied who’s data when the vast majority is user supplied content or copyright material from long abandoned products is not good. Fighting over who is right and who is wrong isn’t getting us anywhere good.

It not my job to tell anyone here what to do. I just make suggestions. At the end of the day, it is up to every individual to make their own choices in life. I’m not religious (in fact I’m an atheist) but one thing the Church has got right, is that there are times when each individual should look back and think about what they have said and what they have done. What was your motive? Have your actions been for the greater good, or just for short term personal gain, or to make you feel better? If it was for personal gain or because at the time it made you feel better, just maybe you can start the ball rolling by forgiving past actions (regardless of the reasons, regardless of the rights and wrongs) and apologise to others for your comments and actions.

And just in case my earlier comments got missed, I will repeat myself: this is NOT about me taking sides, I am not backing or defending anyone. After the replies to the quoted sections, the rest of the text is NOT aimed at any particular individual. If you think it applies to you, do consider what you have done and then think about what you can now do. If you don’t think it applies to you, think to yourself why do you think that. Would other people who have not had any involvement in this reach the same conclusion?

Please note: the bulk of the text above has also been posted in the World of Spectrum forums.

Mark

[ketmar]

Sharing is good, helping one another is good. Fighting over intangible things like who used who’s data, or who’s copied who’s data when the vast majority is user supplied content or copyright material from long abandoned products is not good. Fighting over who is right and who is wrong isn’t getting us anywhere good.

so you're saying that i can take FUSE source code, remove all authors info, rebrand it as Ketmar's Super ZX Spectrum Emulator, and it will be ok? good to know. those are "intangible things" after all, who cares.

as it was said many times in this topic, the ball is in WoS team ballpark. it's up to them to stop this. nobody wants their blood, we just want them to behave like a reasonable human beings. let them silently get away with what they're doing will not cause less damage to the community -- letting liars to get away with their lies never worked in the long term.

p.s.: and yeah, some people outside of this drama may see this as a stupid fight over something unimportant. the fun thing is that those people are usually the same people who are screaming very loud when somebody's taking their work uncredited.

[PeterJ]

Hi [mention]1024MAK[/mention],

There just needs to be an apology to [mention]Einar Saukas[/mention] in some form that he is happy with, and acknowledgement of using ZXDB.

Then things can move on. That's what everyone wants. I'm sure nobody here wants all this stress.

This is a small community, and this sort of stuff continues to spoil it.

[1024MAK]

Sharing is good, helping one another is good. Fighting over intangible things like who used who’s data, or who’s copied who’s data when the vast majority is user supplied content or copyright material from long abandoned products is not good. Fighting over who is right and who is wrong isn’t getting us anywhere good.

so you're saying that i can take FUSE source code, remove all authors info, rebrand it as Ketmar's Super ZX Spectrum Emulator, and it will be ok? good to know. those are "intangible things" after all, who cares.

as it was said many times in this topic, the ball is in WoS team ballpark. it's up to them to stop this. nobody wants their blood, we just want them to behave like a reasonable human beings. let them silently get away with what they're doing will not cause less damage to the community -- letting liars to get away with their lies never worked in the long term.

Wow, less than an hour goes by and already my comments are being taken out of context!

Mark

[ketmar]

Wow, less than an hour goes by and already my comments are being taken out of context!

intangible things.

[RWAC]

Hi @1024MAK,

There just needs to be an apology to @Einar Saukas in some form that he is happy with, and acknowledgement of using ZXDB.

Then things can move on. That's what everyone wants. I'm sure nobody here wants all this stress.

This is a small community, and this sort of stuff continues to spoil it.

Precisely. Einar Saukas must have the patience of a saint to remain so calm and civil through all this.
I don't know what those involved with the running (ruining?) Of Wos hope to gain by their actions but they're certainly not doing themselves any favours.
And I for one won't be visiting Wos anymore. The whole debacle has left a sour taste in my mouth.

[Vampyre]

I would just like to put it publicly that my reply to Mark earlier was not intended as a rant directly at him and I'd like to apologise if he thought it was. It was a rant built up from the frustrations I'm feeling with this whole situation and was aimed as a general moan at everything, certainly not towards a particular individual.

So many apologies again, Mark, if I caused offence. As I stated in our PM the only thing I disagreed with what you said is the we should let things go quiet. Mark does have a point though - everyone taking a deep breath might not be a bad idea.

[Pobulous]

No-one has posted this, yet, from the WOS facebook group: This was buried in a thread asking why WOS error pages were leaking browser and location data from other users.

Lee Fogarty
I think it needs clearing up exactly what "created by" means. And another reason the data has to go is some of the changes are dubious or un-needed. This is why WoS always wanted to credit people submitting changes, and list them on the whats new page.
From what I can make out, the claim is that we are using the ZXDB database. Totally untrue - the WoS db was created a long time before - using the original data files.
Any group of people creating a database from an existing dataset will invariably create similar tables and structure. Things such as the machine types used - create a list for machine types.. both parties will likely create the same table with the same data. There is a WoS admins group on FB that Einar was in, and posts still there where I am sending structure/data to him.
That seems to be changing now to we are using "their" data. Again - untrue. There are some left over bits from a very old import test that are being removed.
WoS currently has over 300,000 indexed pages. Not just software. The software is a very small part of the database, and with the bits we are removing, comes to a minuscule amount.
This is all something that could have been sorted with a PM.

If it's simple to resolve via a PM, why has Lee not resolved it via a PM?

[ketmar]

and not only with the same data, but with the same comments that wasn't present in the original db, and even with the same infoseek ids for things that weren't in the original db! this is a pure coincidence, of course.

[Mike Davies]

Lee Fogarty
I think it needs clearing up exactly what "created by" means. And another reason the data has to go is some of the changes are dubious or un-needed. This is why WoS always wanted to credit people submitting changes, and list them on the whats new page.
From what I can make out, the claim is that we are using the ZXDB database. Totally untrue - the WoS db was created a long time before - using the original data files.
Any group of people creating a database from an existing dataset will invariably create similar tables and structure. Things such as the machine types used - create a list for machine types.. both parties will likely create the same table with the same data. There is a WoS admins group on FB that Einar was in, and posts still there where I am sending structure/data to him.
That seems to be changing now to we are using "their" data. Again - untrue. There are some left over bits from a very old import test that are being removed.
WoS currently has over 300,000 indexed pages. Not just software. The software is a very small part of the database, and with the bits we are removing, comes to a minuscule amount.
This is all something that could have been sorted with a PM.

And thus begins the attempt to gaslight people. Notice he doesn't cover any of the substance in Einar's statements. Just brush it off. The data examples Einar has shown did not exist in the WoS datafiles ZXDB was founded on, they were added into ZXDB -- mainly from Einar himself! -- and those changes aren't those where one person suggests a correction into two sources - it's clear that the source of the current WoS data is from ZXDB.

This is not good enough, Fogarty. It doesn't explain how text that is bespoke to ZXDB appears in WoS. It doesn't explain how image references that are specific to ZXDB are appearing in WoS. Not by a country mile is this explanation is an explanation. It's just another attempt to gaslight the community. If he's serious about wanting to resolve this, he needs to stop with the gaslighting, and enable an ability to make direct comments to direct statements that Einar has published.

Again, this is how this goes:

* Fogarty and Chandler issue a public apology to Einar that meets with Einar's satisfaction
* WoS states clearly that its updated data is from ZXDB, and it will abide by the licensing conditions of it.

Notice Fogarty is admitting to deleting data when it's been reported -- why only one issue at a time? This is called list-washing, the intention is to minimise the visibly breach of licensing, while still violating the licenseing terms. Fogarty should delete ALL DATA that came from ZXDB, regardless if it's reported or not, if his intention is for WoS to not use ZXDB.

It's a simple case of rolling back all the data to the last old-WoS update, and applying only the changes that didn't come from ZXDB.

Fogarty: This is all something that could have been sorted with a PM.

And in the time between 18 June 2020 through to 2 July, why hasn't Fogarty responded publicly or sorted with a PM Einar's concerns. That's two weeks, most of it silent where he could have talked this out with Einar. Why has he failed to explain why ZXDB-specific data appears in WoS pages? And how does that happen without touching ZXDB data?

[kolbeck]

Why has he failed to explain why ZXDB-specific data appears in WoS pages? And how does that happen without touching ZXDB data?

If you ask kids the same type of question, the answer is “by magic”

[PeterJ]

It doesn't explain how text that is bespoke to ZXDB appears in WoS. It doesn't explain how image references that are specific to ZXDB are appearing in WoS.

Very good points [mention]Mike Davies[/mention].