Labels?

This is the place for general discussion and updates about the ZXDB Database. This forum is not specific to Spectrum Computing.

Moderator: druellan

Post Reply
User avatar
Einar Saukas
Bugaboo
Posts: 3070
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm

Labels?

Post by Einar Saukas »

In ZXDB, the table that stores information about any person or company (including publishers, authors, teams, license owners, etc) is currently called "labels".

I don't remember anymore the reason I called it "labels", but it wasn't a good choice. The word "labels" would be more appropriate to designate publishing labels like Hit-Pak.

For this reason, I'm looking now for a better term to replace "labels". Just to be clear, I'm looking for a new generic word to cover all of these categories:
The best word I could find is "entity". AFAIK this is a term that covers both "natural entities" (i.e people) and legal entities (i.e organizations).

Is this word appropriate? Does anybody have a better suggestion?
User avatar
cmal
Manic Miner
Posts: 619
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:05 am
Location: California

Re: Labels?

Post by cmal »

Entity seems like a good choice. I can't think of any other term that would be generic enough. I googled the synonyms and Entity still makes the most sense.
User avatar
Einar Saukas
Bugaboo
Posts: 3070
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm

Re: Labels?

Post by Einar Saukas »

Thanks for the feedback!
User avatar
Juan F. Ramirez
Bugaboo
Posts: 5102
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:55 am
Location: Málaga, Spain

Re: Labels?

Post by Juan F. Ramirez »

Subject?
User avatar
jpablo
Drutt
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:05 am
Location: Zaragoza, Spain
Contact:

Re: Labels?

Post by jpablo »

Hi Einar,

Love this question! :)

I was using "entity" as well in the SPA2 database, so your proposal sounds great to me. Anyway, I'd love to read proposals from native English speakers, so I'll follow this thread carefully!

Cheers,
Juan
dfzx
Manic Miner
Posts: 673
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:55 pm
Location: New Forest, UK
Contact:

Re: Labels?

Post by dfzx »

"entities" seems a good choice for what's in that table.

While you're at it, are you still OK with "entries"? The Github doc says they're Spectrum related items, and I always thought "items" was the better term. :)
Derek Fountain, author of the ZX Spectrum C Programmer's Getting Started Guide and various open source games, hardware and other projects, including an IF1 and ZX Microdrive emulator.
User avatar
Einar Saukas
Bugaboo
Posts: 3070
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm

Re: Labels?

Post by Einar Saukas »

Juan F. Ramirez wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:58 amSubject?
This is also a good choice, but I think "entity" is more adequate when referring to companies.
User avatar
Einar Saukas
Bugaboo
Posts: 3070
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm

Re: Labels?

Post by Einar Saukas »

dfzx wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:35 amWhile you're at it, are you still OK with "entries"? The Github doc says they're Spectrum related items, and I always thought "items" was the better term. :)
Yes, I'm considering to rename "entries" too. I was going to create a separate thread to discuss it, but since you mentioned it here...

In ZXDB, the table that stores information about any title is currently called "entries". Each entry could be:
  • A software tape (that could contain an individual program, a compilation, a covertape, or an electronic magazine)
  • Each individual program from a compilation, covertape, or type-in (even if this program was never released on tape separately)
  • A box set containing a collection of tapes sold together
  • A book
  • A computer, printer, interface, or any other type of add-on hardware device
It doesn't include magazines (they are store separately) and cross-development tools (for instance ZX-Paintbrush).

The term "entries" isn't exactly wrong, but it's kinda too generic so it's not clear what it means. IMHO the term "item" has the same problem.

I have been considering to rename it to "products". Therefore a Spectrum "product" would be a program, book, or hardware device.

Does anybody have a better suggestion?
User avatar
cmal
Manic Miner
Posts: 619
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:05 am
Location: California

Re: Labels?

Post by cmal »

How about "Assets"? Products are often associated with things that get made and sold.
User avatar
Einar Saukas
Bugaboo
Posts: 3070
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm

Re: Labels?

Post by Einar Saukas »

cmal wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:55 pmHow about "Assets"?
I'm afraid "assets" is also too generic.

I mean, most people would consider even individual screenshots as "assets", but not as "products".

cmal wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:55 pmProducts are often associated with things that get made and sold.
Programs, books, and hardware devices are often things that get made and sold.

Although plenty of free products exist too.
User avatar
Rorthron
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1644
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:35 pm

Re: Labels?

Post by Rorthron »

Einar Saukas wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:22 pm Yes, I'm considering to rename "entries" too.

Each entry could be:
  • A software tape (that could contain an individual program, a compilation, a covertape, or an electronic magazine)
  • Each individual program from a compilation, covertape, or type-in (even if this program was never released on tape separately)
  • A box set containing a collection of tapes sold together
  • A book
  • A computer, printer, interface, or any other type of add-on hardware device
Is this the full list of the contents of "entries"? Are there any other things included?
Einar Saukas wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:22 pm It doesn't include ... cross-development tools (for instance ZX-Paintbrush).
Could you explain the reasoning behind the exclusion? (It helps define what you are looking for.)
User avatar
Einar Saukas
Bugaboo
Posts: 3070
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm

Re: Labels?

Post by Einar Saukas »

Rorthron wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:17 pm
Einar Saukas wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:22 pm Yes, I'm considering to rename "entries" too.

Each entry could be:
  • A software tape (that could contain an individual program, a compilation, a covertape, or an electronic magazine)
  • Each individual program from a compilation, covertape, or type-in (even if this program was never released on tape separately)
  • A box set containing a collection of tapes sold together
  • A book
  • A computer, printer, interface, or any other type of add-on hardware device
Is this the full list of the contents of "entries"? Are there any other things included?
Yes, this is the full list.

It's basically all "titles", which means software (like Target Renegade), hardware (like Multiface 1), and books (like Complete Spectrum ROM Disassembly).

Rorthron wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:17 pm
Einar Saukas wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:22 pm It doesn't include ... cross-development tools (for instance ZX-Paintbrush).
Could you explain the reasoning behind the exclusion? (It helps define what you are looking for.)
This list doesn't include cross-development tools like utilities (such as ZX-Paintbrush) and emulators (such as SpecEmu) because they are not really Spectrum software. Instead they are software for other platforms that help create Spectrum software. Therefore it makes sense to store and classify them differently. For instance, instead of Spectrum characteristics like "runs on Spectrum 48K or Spectrum 128K", they are classified as "runs on Amiga or PC". Technically there's a separate table called "tools" for these cross-development tools.

This list doesn't include magazines either because they are different from other Spectrum titles. Basically a magazine title like Crash is not really a product, the actual products are the individual magazine issues of Crash. Magazines require a very different organization and presentation, thus it makes sense to store them differently.
User avatar
Rorthron
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1644
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:35 pm

Re: Labels?

Post by Rorthron »

I can't right now think of anything better than "products", though even that is not entirely accurate. A more accurate description might be "non-recurring products for use with the ZX Spectrum", but that's really quite a mouthful.
User avatar
druellan
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1466
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:19 pm

Re: Labels?

Post by druellan »

I think "entry" is correct in the context of the database, it is accurate on what represents for the database itself and I didn't remember any confusion while taking about contents in the forum. I see no problems if we keep it.
User avatar
Einar Saukas
Bugaboo
Posts: 3070
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm

Re: Labels?

Post by Einar Saukas »

druellan wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:39 am I think "entry" is correct in the context of the database, it is accurate on what represents for the database itself and I didn't remember any confusion while taking about contents in the forum. I see no problems if we keep it.
I don't see much problem with "entry". Unlike "label" which is misleading thus needs to be changed.

It seems replacing "label" with "entity" is the best choice we have. However the problem is, the two central terms in ZXDB would be "entity" and "entry". These words are too similar!

Imagine yourself trying to explain to someone else that certain entries were authored by multiple entities, either directly or through other entities owned by them, these entries were possibly licensed from other entities or just inspired by other entries from different entities, or perhaps as sequels to previous entries authored by the same or different entities...

We really need distinct words. In particular, I think "entity/product" works better than "entity/entry" and especially "label/entry".

Any other ideas?
User avatar
pavero
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1570
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:49 pm
Location: The Czech Republic
Contact:

Re: Labels?

Post by pavero »

As a programmer of many tools using ZXDB my opinion is negative for these changes. I would never change names of the most important tables, even if there are misleading. That's why we have clear descriptions on GitHub like this:

"labels - individuals and companies (authors, publishers, development teams, copyright holders)"

It's very easy to rename table in ZXDB. But it means to modify dozens/ hunderds SQL queries in applications running on ZXDB!

At least please don't change the name of the most important table - entries!
User avatar
R-Tape
Site Admin
Posts: 6353
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Labels?

Post by R-Tape »

I'd second what pav says. I think this makes unnecessary work for people working on the DB and sites/software using it. If little tweaks keep getting made without very good reason, I think we run the risk of discouraging people.

In my opinon, 'labels' is not perfect but okay.
pavero wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:52 am At least please don't change the name of the most important table - entries!
^This!
User avatar
Einar Saukas
Bugaboo
Posts: 3070
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm

Re: Labels?

Post by Einar Saukas »

pavero wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:52 am As a programmer of many tools using ZXDB my opinion is negative for these changes. I would never change names of the most important tables, even if there are misleading. That's why we have clear descriptions on GitHub like this:

"labels - individuals and companies (authors, publishers, development teams, copyright holders)"

It's very easy to rename table in ZXDB. But it means to modify dozens/ hunderds SQL queries in applications running on ZXDB!

At least please don't change the name of the most important table - entries!
For the record, I never underestimate everyone else's effort to accommodate any chances in ZXDB. This is the reason I announce and discuss changes in advance, and always make these changes gradually. For instance, when "idiom_id" was renamed to "language_id", there was an intermediate ZXDB release containing both, so nobody had to update all queries at once. This gradual process is actually more work for me, but makes it easier for others...

In this particular case, I didn't expect this would be much of a problem. I assume it would just require a few automatic search/replaces:

Code: Select all

labels    ->  entities
label_id  ->  entity_id
entries   ->  products
entry_id  ->  product_id
However if it's harder for others than I estimated, then I won't make this change anymore. This is exactly the reason I asked for feedback!
User avatar
pavero
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1570
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:49 pm
Location: The Czech Republic
Contact:

Re: Labels?

Post by pavero »

Discussion is always welcome. But the main question should be different. Not 'how to rename?' but 'is it really necessary to rename?'. Or maybe a poll would be ideal. ;-)

Frankly speaking, if I see a table 'entities' instead of a table 'labels' - it doesn't help me too much. Still I need to read a description or search the content firstly.
User avatar
Einar Saukas
Bugaboo
Posts: 3070
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm

Re: Labels?

Post by Einar Saukas »

pavero wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:25 pm Discussion is always welcome. But the main question should be different. Not 'how to rename?' but 'is it really necessary to rename?'. Or maybe a poll would be ideal. ;-)

Frankly speaking, if I see a table 'entities' instead of a table 'labels' - it doesn't help me too much. Still I need to read a description or search the content firstly.
Good nomenclature doesn't eliminate the need for good documentation, or vice-versa. Ideally we should have both.

I believe these new terms would be an improvement. However it's a tradeoff. If this improvement would be a major headache for you then I agree it's not worth it.
Post Reply