Storing and listing improved and enhanced games?

[toot_toot]

Maybe this would be better as a new topic!

Are there any plans to store improved and enhanced games in the database, which can then be easily searched? The problem seems to be there's no single place where any of these are stored, making it easy for those games to be lost in time!

I've built up quite a few 128k Enhanced games, e.g. AY enhanced 48K games, or generally improved or modded games like the excellent Barbarian or Renegade mods, but they seem to be quite difficult to track down and are often spread over several websites. I'm sure I've missed out some, but I'm more than happy to contribute by sending these files over, but I think it would be so much easier if those files were referenced on the ZXDB!

[PeterJ]

Moved to ZXDB Discussion.

[Einar Saukas]

Before we start this discussion, let me clarify the current situation in ZXDB.

These changes are currently classified in ZXDB as follows:

• BUGFIX - fixes serious bugs in a game, while leaving everything else as close to the original as possible. In ZXDB, bugfixes are described in a section called "Known Bugs" that appears in the original game page, and there's an extra file explicitly marked as "(BUGFIX)".

• MOD - modifies the original game so extensively that it's practically a new game. These changes either create a new gameplay (like different levels for JSW) or a completely different game experience (like Ralf's changes from B&W to colored games). In ZXDB, mods are stored as different games, in separate game pages, marked as "[MOD]" and linked to the original game.

• HACK/CRACK - makes small improvements to the original game, such as removing copy protection, adding infinite lives or trainers, porting from tape to disk (or vice-versa), adding an intro or modifying minor details like messages, color palette, control keys, auto-fire, etc. They are currently not stored in ZXDB.

[Ast A. Moore]

Yeah, I think the OP’s description of the changes pretty much squarely falls under the MOD category, so I think we’re covered.

[Einar Saukas]

Just to be clear, "AY enhanced 48K games" and improved controls like this are currently considered hacks, not mods.

[toot_toot]

I maybe didn't make myself clear in the OP!

Currently it seems really hard to search for any MOD games in the database, or they're just not there. Take the Barbarian Remix for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJlT6qIp5J4

A brilliant hack/mod of Barbarian that significantly improves the original. In fact, given the option you'd be better off downloading this now than the original.

But currently:
A) is the title stored on the database?
B) How easy is it to find a similarly enhanced game, without knowing the name to search for. For example, I want to be able to search for all 128k AY Enhanced games, like Barbarian (above) or say the Batty TO A Remix (I think it's called), which not only has AY sound but has remixed levels in it. If I search the database for both games, I can't see any reference at all to them.

I managed to find some of these games by looking up old YouTube channels and then searching across multiple sites, but it would be ideal to have them referenced and easily accessed from this site. My concern is that as they're on sites that might not be that well maintained, there's a risk of losing them forever. Take the Penetrator chat, it turned out there was already a hack/enhancement for it, but there's no reference to that hacked version on this site AFIAK.

[Einar Saukas]

Take the Barbarian Remix for example:
[...]
A) is the title stored on the database?

Yes, it's here.

B) How easy is it to find a similarly enhanced game, without knowing the name to search for.

Go to the original Barbarian page here. There's a section called "Mods" where it says "1 title(s)". Click on it. It will give you the list of Barbarian mods currently stored in ZXDB.

You will find similar lists of mods for Dizzy (12 titles), Manic Miner (38 titles), Jet Set Willy (116 titles), and many others.

Take the Penetrator chat, it turned out there was already a hack/enhancement for it, but there's no reference to that hacked version on this site AFIAK.

Currently ZXDB does not store HACK/CRACK versions. It only stores BUGFIXes and MODs.

I think that's a good policy, but I'm open to discuss other options. This is the reason I'm participating in this thread!

[Turtle_Quality]

Seems to me that the Penetrator example is on the edge of being a fix as fire/forward is widely seen as an annoying issue with the game. But enhancements could be split from "cheats" such as infinite lives, and deserve preservation if possible (gets trickier with Jetpac mods/fixes or other denied distribution of course). I wouldn't want to see The Improvers work or similar forgotten/discouraged. Maybe some altered games will fall into multiple categories - definable keys, bugfix plus infinite lives ; is it one choice from bugfix, mod or hack currently or any combination (series of flags) ? It would also be nice to be able to find all fixes / enhancements available, instead of finding one if you happen to look at the right game.

[Rorthron]

I don't think we should consider Penetrator a bug fix. The controls may be irritating, but they are the ones intended and they are described in the instructions. Changing them is an improvement, not a bug fix.

I agree it would be good to have the improved version in the archive, though. Why not include hacks which significantly improve playability, eg by improving controls, or class the improvements as substantial enough to make the game a mod?

[toot_toot]

thanks [mention]Einar Saukas[/mention], I wasn't aware it was stored under a MOD, but I suppose the issue might be that the MOD field does seem very wide. For example, the enhanced Barbarian which can be seen as a significant enhancement over the original is tagged as a MOD the same way the notorious Harry Price's games were, which were just hacks of original games that were republished like this: https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/5 ... g_Bad_John

I don't know if MOD should be split off into further categories, like 128k Enhanced (e.g. music or sound FX have since been added), Improved (like the Penetrator control hack or the Pacman hack that was recently done), Cracked (protection removed), Trainer etc. There's been some great improvements of games on here through Pokes and unless those are documented and stored in a searchable database, they're likely to be lost forever!

There also seems to be a lot of games missing from the database, like the aforementioned Batty, the Sacred Armour of Antiriad which has a nice AY version of Richard Joseph's great theme music or the remixed version of Goonies that also adds AY music (unfortunately not the Goonies theme). Or how about playing Highway Encounter with an AY version of the theme from Fletch? Might sound bizarre, but someone has done it! I suppose my concern is that those games are lost due to very little documentation or storage of those games on reliable sites like this and it's currently very, very difficult to find them.

I'm more than happy to help with those games, I've managed to get a number of them and I can send them over for inclusion in the database if you want.

[TMD2003]

I suppose I should keep an eye on this discussion as I'm just compiling my list of "improved" type-ins from 1983 magazine listings - some of which are still listed on WOS and ZXDB to this day as if they're the originals, when I know perfectly well they're not.

I'm rehashing my own Sinclair-related webpages where these mods will all be hosted anyway, but I'd rather ZXDB pointed to the originals (and WOS, when Lee or whoever's in charge of updating it now can be bothered, but that may involve a degree of badgering that I won't have to do here). I'm still undecided as to whether I should have the mods as standalone tape files, or package them together as "Dr. Jim's Mighty Microdrive Modpack" on .MDR format, just to be (a) unique and (b) difficult.

[Nienn Heskil]

I suppose my concern is that those games are lost due to very little documentation or storage of those games on reliable sites like this and it's currently very, very difficult to find them.

But these guys don't even store all the original releases. What are you talking about? In fact, they've managed to make it even worse than the old WoS, which originally started all that 'permissions' bullsh.t. Whichever sites are there that have 'preservation' as a goal, this isn't one of them.

And if you look closer, many of those few that they do happen to store are actually hosted on a completely unrelated 3rd-party website, that is under a constant threat from all sorts of US copyrasts. It's a big question what seems 'reliable' here.

[Ralf]

Speaking about mods, my offer to upload all my game mods to Spectrum Computing and ZXDB is still and always valid

I noticed someone has added recently my mod of Rygar:
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/3 ... m/Rygar_RM

So maybe we could add my other works too

[R-Tape]

Speaking about mods, my offer to upload all my game mods to Spectrum Computing and ZXDB is still and always valid

I noticed someone has added recently my mod of Rygar:
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/3 ... m/Rygar_RM

So maybe we could add my other works too

I'm working on them for this update Ralf. You'll also be the proud owner of a new ZXDB group "Ralf's coloured MODs". Apologies it's taken so long

[akeley]

thanks @Einar Saukas, I wasn't aware it was stored under a MOD, but I suppose the issue might be that the MOD field does seem very wide. For example, the enhanced Barbarian which can be seen as a significant enhancement over the original is tagged as a MOD the same way the notorious Harry Price's games were, which were just hacks of original games that were republished like this: https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/5 ... g_Bad_John

I don't know if MOD should be split off into further categories, like 128k Enhanced (e.g. music or sound FX have since been added), Improved (like the Penetrator control hack or the Pacman hack that was recently done), Cracked (protection removed), Trainer etc. There's been some great improvements of games on here through Pokes and unless those are documented and stored in a searchable database, they're likely to be lost forever!

I think MODs is a sufficient category as it is. Trying to judge if something is an enchancement or "just a hack" is prone to subjectivity, and telling a difference between improvement and enchancement could be tricky too. And there already are "remarks", which explain what the mod is about.

[Ralf]

I'm working on them for this update Ralf.

Great to hear that!

It's probable that close to the year's end I'll be releasing a new mod but currently I'm working on a brand,
new game and it currently a priority for me.

Anyway, I'm still doing something for Speccy, even if I don't show prieviews. The old flame is still burning

[Einar Saukas]

But these guys don't even store all the original releases.

ZXDB preserves all original releases, even in cases that the owner currently denies distribution. This is the reason certain program pages show a list of playable files that cannot be downloaded, it simply means these files are currently indexed in ZXDB but sites like SpectrumComputing are not allowed to make them available.

What are you talking about? In fact, they've managed to make it even worse than the old WoS, which originally started all that 'permissions' bullsh.t.

That permissions bullsh.t started by Martijn is the main reason that this kind of preservation effort is currently respected and supported by the vast majority of copyright owners (with very few exceptions) instead of considered piracy. Sites like SpectrumComputing would be receiving C&D orders, or perhaps forced to move to an out of reach foreign country, without the credibility built by Martijn.

Whichever sites are there that have 'preservation' as a goal, this isn't one of them.

If you have any sensible suggestions on how to improve our work, constructive criticism is always welcome.

And if you look closer, many of those few that they do happen to store are actually hosted on a completely unrelated 3rd-party website, that is under a constant threat from all sorts of US copyrasts. It's a big question what seems 'reliable' here.

Exactly 100% of ZXDB content is stored somewhere else. The current location of these files is explained here. If anything happens to any of these sites, we will simply upload this content somewhere else (yes we do have offline backups of everything) and update this documentation. It's not rocket science really.

[Ralf]

We generally should avoid discussions about copyright but I can't resist this time

Yes, I would agree that current copyright laws when apllied to old games are stupid. 70 years after author's death is a total overkill. It means Spectrum games will become free somewhere after the year 2100 when nobody except a few historians will probably care about them

They are stupid laws but they are valid laws. Usually not executed but still valid and "usually" is a magic word here.

It's easy to be "brave" and download Knight Lore from the web. The chance that they will notice,track and get you is extremely low.

But running a retro website is a different thing. Here everyone has a proof that you are storing these software and allowing others to download it.
It's also not personal use but distribution which is an important distinction for lawyers in many cases (drugs etc. )

And you aren't inivisble, actually everyone easily knows your name.

What's more you have friends and foes in retro community. And while copyright owners won't probably start anything on their own, the chance of
their reaction is much higher if some guy who dislikes you will report you to them. Believe me, such things happened in the past, google the
story about homebrew game about Smurfs on Amiga.

And you are adult, you have your job, you employer or your clients. You don't know how they will behave if you are involved in some legal trouble.
And you don't want to check.

And you don't want to lose all your work put into the website if one day you would have to take it down.

So yes, I fully understand and support being cautious with copyrights. When we were younger, everyone was careless. Today we simply can't.
In the past I believed that with each year passing everyone will be more relaxed and easy going about old software. But unfortunately it's exacly
the opposite. Many people with age are getting bitter and grumpy and very serious about copyrights and you just need to be really careful because we are all stepping on a thing ice. And it's not going to change soon.

Sorry for the rant!

[Nienn Heskil]

ZXDB preserves all original releases

ZXDB is a database containing metadata information only.

Exactly 100% of ZXDB content is stored somewhere else.

Eh, not even gonna start with this mess.

certain program pages show a list of playable files that cannot be downloaded
<...>
these files are currently indexed in ZXDB

In other words, it stores the name of a file, but not the file itself, nor the working download link to the file. Is this correct?

That permissions bullsh.t started by Martijn is the main reason that this kind of preservation effort

I understand 'preservation' as something more than just leaving things to rot in a personal archive somewhere. And it is certainly not mere 'indexing'.

is currently respected and supported by the vast majority of copyright owners (with very few exceptions) instead of considered piracy.

... whatever brownie points that earns ...

If you have any sensible suggestions on how to improve our work, constructive criticism is always welcome.

That would be a waste of time in this case.

[Nienn Heskil]

[mention]Ralf[/mention], I get what you're saying but I can't agree with you. This community has grown an unhealthy tendency to exaggerate these things out of proportion because someone somewhere farted during the 00s.

And there's the fact some things are simply mutually exclusive. For instance, 'respect of copyright owners (tm)' and 'actual preservation'.

[clebin]

@Ralf, I get what you're saying but I can't agree with you. This community has grown an unhealthy tendency to exaggerate these things out of proportion because someone somewhere farted during the 00s.

And there's the fact some things are simply mutually exclusive. For instance, 'respect of copyright owners (tm)' and 'actual preservation'.

It's easy to be brave when it's someone else's name on the website.

[akeley]

Anybody who's been around retro gaming scene for a while knows what the score is in regard to this subject. For obvious reasons, can we just stop talking about it here?

[Einar Saukas]

In other words, it stores the name of a file, but not the file itself, nor the working download link to the file. Is this correct?

Wrong.

ZXDB always stores working download links for everything. Sites like SpectrumComputing can decide the links they will provide or not, based on their distribution policies, obtained permissions, etc.

When a certain file is unavailable at a certain SpectrumComputing page, quite often this file can be found at another ZXDB-based site (usually linked at the bottom of the game page). And vice-versa...

I understand 'preservation' as something more than just leaving things to rot in a personal archive somewhere. And it is certainly not mere 'indexing'.

Why did you get the idea that someone has a "personal archive somewhere"?

Every single file indexed by ZXDB is stored in a publicly available archive (although each site can choose to provide a direct link to certain files or not). Our personal backups have exactly the same content. There are no personal archives. Nothing is left to rot.

is currently respected and supported by the vast majority of copyright owners (with very few exceptions) instead of considered piracy.

... whatever brownie points that earns ...

The brownie points that we earn are called "receiving support and contributions (material and/or information) from most copyright owners instead of C&D letters".

If you have any sensible suggestions on how to improve our work, constructive criticism is always welcome.

That would be a waste of time in this case.

Do you honestly believe that just whining and complaining about our efforts is a good investment of your time, but trying to provide an useful suggestion would be wasting your time?

[Einar Saukas]

Now back on topic...

It would also be nice to be able to find all fixes / enhancements available, instead of finding one if you happen to look at the right game.

About searching for MODs, notice that Advanced Search has an option to select "mod only".

[Einar Saukas]

thanks @Einar Saukas, I wasn't aware it was stored under a MOD

You are welcome!

For example, the enhanced Barbarian which can be seen as a significant enhancement over the original is tagged as a MOD the same way the notorious Harry Price's games were, which were just hacks of original games that were republished like this: https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/5 ... g_Bad_John

Big Bad John is a different game using someone else's code. This is the most common definition of a MOD.

It was obviously wrong to sell this game as an original game, without crediting and paying royalties to Molecule Man. But that's a different subject...

I don't know if MOD should be split off into further categories

Yes, it's possible to classify MODs into different groups. We just need to decide the groups that make sense.

I'm more than happy to help with those games, I've managed to get a number of them and I can send them over for inclusion in the database if you want.

Yes, please!

Besides the files, can you please also provide any available details about each MOD you have? Preferably mod title, original game ID, authors (and their roles), release year, language, minimum machine model, additional links, also if possible a short description of each mod. There's considerable work involved in cataloging each title besides uploading the actual file.

As I mentioned before, we are very interested in all titles that fit the definition of MODs that I posted. However I'm still not sure how to handle HACKs... I will discuss this subject in a separate post.