The "Maze" genre

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Kweepa
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by Kweepa »

You need to add a 'maziness' score to each game, out of 69,105.
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Juan F. Ramirez
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Re: The "Maze" genre

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I think this thread is a monster we have just created! :lol:
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by hikoki »

Aquasquad, the weird control in diagonals makes the scenery easy to bump into so it seems all about how to move around rocks.

Brat Attack, finding items seems to be more important than action. That's why it was catalogued as Maze?
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R-Tape
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by R-Tape »

hikoki wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:44 am Brat Attack, finding items seems to be more important than action. That's why it was catalogued as Maze?
Hmmm not convinced. I think it should look and/or feel like a maze, this is just running around. I this should be in the same category as Joe Blade, which IMO arguably should be changed from Arcade: Adventure to Arcade: Action (!)
ZXDunny wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:30 pm Sabre Wulf is definitely a maze game.
I don't think this would be out of place in Maze, Adventure or Action.

Ant Attack is down as maze, surely better as Arcade: Adventure? or Action?
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Juan F. Ramirez
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by Juan F. Ramirez »

Just checked the first ten pages of R-Tape's link and I found these games that, in my opinion, shouldn't be considered as maze games:

ALIEN SYNDROME
ANT ATTACK
ANTIC (THE BIRD & THE BEES II)
AQUASQUAD
ARANEUS
ASTRO
AVEN
AZATOTH
BABALIBA
BLACK BEARD
BLOOD & GUTS
BRAIN STORM
BRAT ATTACK
CAPTAIN FIZZ
CAPTAIN KELLY
CAPTAIN SLOG
LA CASA STREGATA
THE CENTURIONS
CHIMERA
THE COVENANT
CYBEX
DEACTIVATORS
DEJA VU
DEJA VU II

Araneus & Astro are two BASIC games I reviewed some time ago in the MH Cassette thread. The first might be considered as a board game, the second, clearly an arcade game.

Some other are in the list maybe because of an error. For example, Chimera is an adventure, isometric style as Alien 8 or Movie. The same to Babaliba or Black Beard, that takes place on a pirate boat. Blood & Guts takes place inside an human body and is clearly an arcade adventure.
Last edited by Juan F. Ramirez on Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The "Maze" genre

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R-Tape wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:22 am Hmmm not convinced. I think it should look and/or feel like a maze, this is just running around. I this should be in the same category as Joe Blade, which IMO arguably should be changed from Arcade: Adventure to Arcade: Action (!)
Action seems just a secondary filler to make gameplay less dull. You have to find dummies and backtrack to the next baby and that's it. As there are neither platforms nor adventure elements I can see the logic of the archivist.
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by druellan »

R-Tape wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:04 pmI think Wriggler & Xadom should remain Maze games.
For me Xadom and Pac-Man are the examples we need to have in mind. In Xadom the maze concept is used to confuse the player, but you don't see the maze as such. In Pac-Man, the maze is literally in front of you eyes.
Chimera is an adventure, isometric style as Alien 8 or Movie
Yeah, I think Wriggler is a good example of how much you can push the concept of maze on a game that ultimately is just and adventure with a complex map. On Wriggler you can see the intention of the author was to confuse the player. Chimera and Alien 8 are just games with a map.

And what about snake games?:
Acorralado - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=18496

There are versions that have walls and obstacles, but in the end the maze is being formed by the snake, it is kind of a side effect of other game features.
R-Tape wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:04 pmPerhaps willing parties (Me, Druellan?, Ralf?, Juan?, anyone else?)* could check every example and pick the ones they think should be reclassified. I have a feeling we'll get good correlation.
Yeah, I think there are some that can be discussed, but others are really not maze games.
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by druellan »

Not a maze game IMO:

4 Minute Warning - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=15577 - We can discuss if furniture and three rooms can become a "maze"
Acolyte - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=22902 - More like an adventure game perhaps?
Alien Bank - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=16162 - more like a platformer
Alien - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=144 - more like a survival game
Alien Mind - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=31999 - puzzle game
Alien Mind Mod - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=33405
Alien [2] - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=18600 - looking for an image to test, but does not look like a maze
Alta Tension - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=24660 - also no file for testing, but looks like a logic game
Anakonda - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=25205 - not sure about this one
Apples - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=27438 - lovely! but not much of a maze
Avtoralli - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=25206

Games that are just big maps:

Alien Fiend - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=14503
Airbase Invader - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=116
Alien Serch - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=23541 - I'm unable to play it, but looks like a map game
Avenger - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=351
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Juan F. Ramirez
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by Juan F. Ramirez »

Ant Attack is clearly an adventure game
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by MrPixel »

Juan F. Ramirez wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:06 am I think this thread is a monster we have just created! :lol:
Yes, It's called the Frankenthread :lol:
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by R-Tape »

Top stuff fellas, won't have time to have a look myself until next week.
druellan wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:26 pm And what about snake games?:
Acorralado - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=18496

There are versions that have walls and obstacles, but in the end the maze is being formed by the snake, it is kind of a side effect of other game features.
Not for me. I'd put Snake under Action unless there was something unusual about it. The blocks are always too sparse to be a maze, and IMO the 'maze' effect created by the snake is too subtle a side effect to count. I can't imagine anyone searching for a maze game with that in mind.

(Waits for someone to point to a game that refutes this, "Snakes in a Maze" or something.)
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by Juan F. Ramirez »

This is the second batch of games (always IMHO), from page 11 to 20:

DESOLATOR
DOOMSKULLE
DRACO
DYNATRON MISSION
EQUINOX
ESKIMO EDDIE
FANTASTIC VOYAGE
FAT WORM BLOWS A SPARKY
THE FIFTH QUADRANT
THE FINAL MATRIX
FIRESTORM
FROST BYTE
GIANT'S REVENGE
GO TO HELL
GYROSCOPE
GYROSCOPE II
H.E.R.O.
HIVE
HOCUS FOCUS
JASON'S GEM
JOCK AND THE TIME RINGS
KLIMAX
KYD CADET
KYD CADET II
KYD CADET 3
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R-Tape
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by R-Tape »

This is terrifying!

Cheers Juan, keep going. I agree with ones I know so far.
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by Juan F. Ramirez »

Pages 21 to 30:

LABYRINTHION
THE LIFE OF HARRY
MAG THE MAGICIAN
MAGIC CARPET
THE MAGIC ROUNDABOUT
MAGNETRON
MANSION
LA MANSION
MARINE
MARITRINI, FREELANCE MONSTER SLAYER
MARITRINI, FREELANCE MONSTER SLAYER EN: LAS INCREIBLES VICISITUDES...
MARTIANOIDS
MERMAID MADNESS
METABOLIS
METAPLEX
MICRO MOUSE
MIN CIAM PAI
MISSION OMEGA
MOLECULE MAN
N.O.M.A.D.
NANAKO DESCENDS TO HELL
NINJA COMMANDO
NONTERRAQUEOUS
OGNOM
ON THE RUN
ONE MAN & HIS DROID
ONE MAN & HIS DROID II
OROSET
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by hikoki »

Maritrini is a sort of Gauntlet. That's why the game was catalogued in the same way?

Many games have some Action element, that's why games with some interesting maze concept may be more visible if left as Maze. At least if you don't plan to assign several genres per game, you should consider which genre prevails or even which is the most original genre in a particular game.
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by R-Tape »

Maritrini is a sort of Gauntlet. That's why the game was catalogued in the same way?
Yep I'd agree that's one of the 'maybe maze', possibly nonterraqueous too (going on feel). Haven't had chance to go through these in detail yet.

Drawing up a list for discussion is good, it helps me (and anyone else) to be consistent when collating new games for the DB. There are some pretty clear (IMO) not mazers (4 minute warning, Mermaid Madness, Magic Roundabout to name a few) that can be reclassified at the very least.

(I bet the moment Einar saw this thread he downed a bottle of cachaca and has since been wandering the streets of Sao Paulo in his underpants shouting at pigeons.)
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Re: The "Maze" genre

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Not a maze game:
Birdy - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=539
Bits - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=24747 - can't be tested but probably not a maze game
Boulder Dash Construction Kit - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=650 - an utility, not a game
Buzz Off! - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=9575
Caverns of Kontonia - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=860

Probably not a maze game:
The Bolob - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=571
Bob the Space Janitor - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=30146 - I was unable to run it
Bobik - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=21635 - more like a logic game to me
El Bodeguero - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=18223 - Looks like a Jumping Jack clone
Bomba - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=24709 - no image to test, but probably not a maze game
Bombero - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=10455 - the image is lost, but looking at pictures is not a maze game
Brain Damage - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=673 - more like an action game
Captain Slog - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=815 - more like a video adventure
El Chatarrero Galactico - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=32166
Cherry Clearings- https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=21252
Crazy Pingoin - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=1134

Bould Dash clones. Not sure if Boulder Dash can be a maze game? More like a puzzle game.
Bite the Dust - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=542
Boulder Dash - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=639
Boulder Dash (VBG Version) - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=23390
Boulder Dash II: Rockford's Riot - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=642
Boulder Dash III - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=644
Boulder Logic - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=31917
Boulder Mix - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=15209
Boulder-Dash 512b - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=27977
CVG Rockfall - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=14294
Cave Master - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=21169

No idea, probably correctly categorized as maze game?
Captain Fizz - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=9320
Captain Kelly - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=812
Choc Ice Eater 2 - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=27042
Choc Ice Eater 2011 - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=26192
The Covenant - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=1098
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by Juan F. Ramirez »

The last batch of games from the link provided by R-Tape (pages 31 - 40)

PADDINGTON'S GARDEN GAME
PAWS
PETULANT POOGSLAY POWERFUL PARADE
PIGGY
THE PLOT
PODDER
THE PRIZE
PRODIGY
LA PROFECIA
PROJECT FUTURE
PULSATOR
RANA-RAMA
RAPSCALLION
REALM OF IMPOSSIBILITY
REC CAP
RESCUE
RETURN OF THE THINGS
ROCK 'N ROLL
S.O.S.
SABOTAJE
SAIMAZOOM
SARACEN
SCUMBALL
SLUBBERDEGULLION
SOPHIA
SPACE HUNTER
SPI-DROID
STARQUAKE
STELA II
STROMTIUM DOG:THE KILLING
SURVIVOR
SWAT!
TALOS
TANTALUS
TERMINUS
THAT SINKING FEELING
THINGY AND THE DOODAHS
THUNDERBIRS (FIREBIRD)
TIME FLIGHT
TOMB OF SYRINX
TOOFY IN FAN LAND
TREMOR
TUJAD
TUNELES MARCIANOS
VALLEY OF THE DEAD
VAMPERI
VAMPIRE KILLER
VIAJE AL CENTRO DE LA NAPIA
WILLOW PATTERN
WIZ
WRIGGLER
XADOM
XAVIOR
YACHT RACE
YUMIKO IN THE HAUNTED MANSION
ZOMBIE ZOMBIE

These are games that, in my opinion, shouldn't be considered as maze games.
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by druellan »

Hi [mention]R-Tape[/mention]
Between me and [mention]Juan F. Ramirez[/mention], we are collecting a ton of titles to look and recategorize. I think he already finished his sweep, mine is going to take some time, but besides that, the next step is to find the right category for all this titles.

So, since I'm taking my time, perhaps could be helpful if I start to propose a new category for the games I flag?
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by R-Tape »

druellan wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:39 pm So, since I'm taking my time, perhaps could be helpful if I start to propose a new category for the games I flag?
Yes, this sounds good to me. Ta.

We shouldn't rush into making any changes, the enormous list is looking nothing short of a genre revolution! :shock:

When we're done I can create a list summarising the proposed changes and get more opinions on it.
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by Juan F. Ramirez »

Most of the games I came across are just arcade adventures (Ant Attack, Ranarama, Project Future, Starquake, ...) So it's just a question of correcting the genre entry, IMO.
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by Einar Saukas »

R-Tape wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:04 pmThe dictionary definition of a maze is:
"A network of paths designed to confuse"
That would rule out Pacman even though we KNOW it's a maze game.
To be honest I'm sure Pacman is NOT a maze, for the exact reason you wrote yourself. It's actually an arcade-action game with corridors/obstacles. As a general rule, if the entire level is a single screen and you can always orientate yourself instantly at a glance, it cannot be a maze.

Anyway I have been reviewing information from several threads (including this one) to improve game classification, and I'm now convinced we need a better category system. I suggest we establish a new, more flexible classification where a game can be assigned to multiple categories. Elite could be classified as both space sim and commerce, probably also strategy and management. Educational games could be classified as quiz or puzzle, not just educational. Likewise it would allow classifying certain games as platform and maze at the same time, for instance.

I was previously worried about the tens of thousands games we would need to reclassify. But I realize now that I could automatically convert classifications to the new system, before we start modifying them. Moreover I would also keep the original WoS classification for historical reasons, and also because anyone that prefers the old system would still have it too. This way we have nothing to lose!

If everyone agrees, the first step is choosing the new categories. OK?
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by Ralf »

I suggest we establish a new, more flexible classification where a game can be assigned to multiple categories.
I said the exact thing several times before on these forums. That a game may belong to several categories. Mobygames website works this way if you need some existing example.

So I totally support this goal. It's a mammoth task that would require a lot of work but if you'd like to do it Einar, I'll try to be of some help.
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by ZXDunny »

Einar Saukas wrote: Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:33 pm
R-Tape wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:04 pmThe dictionary definition of a maze is:
That would rule out Pacman even though we KNOW it's a maze game.
To be honest I'm sure Pacman is NOT a maze, for the exact reason you wrote yourself. It's actually an arcade-action game with corridors/obstacles. As a general rule, if the entire level is a single screen and you can always orientate yourself instantly at a glance, it cannot be a maze.
All of which is totally correct, if you're using the proper definition of the word "maze" - but for something like this, we're using these categories in a more colloquial sense and the vast majority of people who will be searching for pacman clones will likely think "yeah, pacman moves around a maze so I'll search all maze games" and then wonder why pacman clones don't show up. And the official pacman documentation, as well as unofficial game guides etc all refer to the play area as a "maze" (hell, even the official cartoon refers to it as such, and followup games on other platforms even use the word "maze" in the title - such as Ms Pacman Maze Madness - despite not having actual mazes anywhere in the game).

Maybe an over-arching category of "maze" for these games, with a subcategory of "labyrinth" for the kinds of mazes you're thinking of might be better.
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Re: The "Maze" genre

Post by druellan »

Einar Saukas wrote: Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:33 pm If everyone agrees, the first step is choosing the new categories. OK?
Oh, I STRONGLY agree. Trying to re-categorize this is taking me so much time, and for sure there are a lot of games that are impossible to categorize using this system.

I think that the first step could be to convert the actual category/subcategory groups into TAGS, for example: "Arcade Game: Maze" can be converted to "Arcade" and "Maze" tags. This way perhaps you can automate the process and then we can try refine it.
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