Spectrum Computing

I hope I'm not opening another can of worms with this, but... what exactly is the idea of the group "vector graphics"?

1. Are we talking about game developed with a 3D realtime vector graphics engine like Elite https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=1601
2. A game that has some vector graphics as part of the FX, like Extreme https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=1699
3. A game that resembles lineart/vectors, but is not necessarily using realtime vectors like Kung-Fu https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=2778

Since "vector graphics" is supposed to be a technical "feature" of the game, I think 1 and 2 are OK, 3 seems to be kind of misleading.

I'd have said Elite was the only one that's vector graphics. Extreme is really pushing the definition, probably beyond any sensible definition (is it even really vectors?) and Kung Fu is just dodgy line art sprites.

If Kung-Fu are sprites made of lines than it certainly should be removed from that list.

Extreme, well, after some hesitation I would leave it. Watch the full recording, later in the game we have a walking robot, his legs are made of vectors and the rays that he's firing are made of vectors too. That would be enough for me, after all it's "featuring vectors", not "100% made of vectors"

Oh, I forgot to paste the actual list on ZXDB: https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... up_id=1024

So based on the discussion, games that has some sort of realtime vectors are ok, but games that are "inspired", using wireframe sprites but not actual vectors, are not. There are a couple of tricky ones in there like Ace of Aces https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=65

BTW, Extreme is not on the list, but I thought can be a great point of debate, since it is really not vector at all, but has some elements, like the robotic legs, weapons, etc.

I'm still sorting maze games, but when (if) I finish with that I can start taking a look in this list if that helps.

Looking at the list, I see two that bear further investigation:

The Way of Clans and Ring of Darkness. All the rest do use Vectors, albeit filled in some cases.

personally 'vector graphics' make me think of 2d lines only
like asteroids, hyperbowl.
i would call 3d vectors 'wireframe graphics'
and filled polygons as 'solid 3d'

Wall_Axe wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:15 pm personally 'vector graphics' make me think of 2d lines only
like asteroids, hyperbowl.
i would call 3d vectors 'wireframe graphics'
and filled polygons as 'solid 3d'

Would you class Tempest as wireframe 3D graphics due to the depth effect of the tunnel? Because the original game was most definitely using a vector graphics system in the original hardware, similar to the Vectrex (which is really part of the name).

ZXDunny wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:28 pm Would you class Tempest as wireframe 3D graphics due to the depth effect of the tunnel? Because the original game was most definitely using a vector graphics system in the original hardware, similar to the Vectrex (which is really part of the name).

Yeah, that's the thing I'm trying to figure out.
Visually Tempest and Kung-Fu, both are using lines for graphics, but Tempest is using realtime polygons and the other is not.

So, when we say "vector graphics" are we talking about the technology behind the game or just the visual aspect?

Given that the Speccy isn't capable of vector graphics, I'd say we're going for the overall look - it's simulating vector graphics. The line, if you'll pardon the pun, becomes blurred as it does for any classification.

The Kung Fu graphics are constructed with lines and not simply blitted - but does have bitmapped graphics in the background whereas Tempest does not. Unfortunately we can't use that metric either as many arcade vector graphics boxes used hand-painted backgrounds behind the game...

So any version of a vector graphics game for a non-vector display is built using crude lines over bitmapped blitted artwork.

So yeah, if the game uses lines to construct "significant" portions of the game (such as the player character or world) then it's a vector game.

I think the term is dated and a bit incorrect today.
Vector artwork is usually used for 2D art, like logos or fonts.
But it was used back in the day, meaning a 3D engine and display of 3D models.

Anyway, it really means anything you display on screen (real-time computation) based on geometry and maths, as opposed to bitmaps or pre-rendered images.

4thRock wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:40 pm Anyway, it really means anything you display on screen (real-time computation) based on geometry and maths, as opposed to bitmaps or pre-rendered images.

Yeah that is exactly what I think the group should be for, so, perhaps what I can do is check the list and extract the software that is not using realtime polygons and then discuss further to see if we get a consensus.

druellan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:57 pm

4thRock wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:40 pm Anyway, it really means anything you display on screen (real-time computation) based on geometry and maths, as opposed to bitmaps or pre-rendered images.

Yeah that is exactly what I think the group should be for, so, perhaps what I can do is check the list and extract the software that is not using realtime polygons and then discuss further to see if we get a consensus.

Sounds good, but bear in mind that quite a lot of vector arcade games used over/underlaid graphics/artwork which would have to be reproduced by using blitted bitmaps - so yes, discussion for borderline games would be good.

So i thought i'd check the list to see if the first game that sprang to my mind was on it...

It isn't.

Time-Gate

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=5286

ZXDunny wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:28 pm

Wall_Axe wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:15 pm personally 'vector graphics' make me think of 2d lines only
like asteroids, hyperbowl.
i would call 3d vectors 'wireframe graphics'
and filled polygons as 'solid 3d'

Would you class Tempest as wireframe 3D graphics due to the depth effect of the tunnel? Because the original game was most definitely using a vector graphics system in the original hardware, similar to the Vectrex (which is really part of the name).

I would say tempest is still vector graphics
wireframe brings to mind a fully 3d environment, with 3d models

these are of course just personal opinions based on what the magazines used to call these games

Wall_Axe wrote: ↑Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:44 am

ZXDunny wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:28 pm Would you class Tempest as wireframe 3D graphics due to the depth effect of the tunnel? Because the original game was most definitely using a vector graphics system in the original hardware, similar to the Vectrex (which is really part of the name).

I would say tempest is still vector graphics
wireframe brings to mind a fully 3d environment, with 3d models

these are of course just personal opinions based on what the magazines used to call these games

Wholeheartedly agree, but as Tempest uses 3D calculations I'd also say it's Wireframe as well as vector

ok maybe tempest could be classed as wireframe but im watching it, it just scraped in by the hair of its neck

Downstairs areas and stairs in Atic Atac!

arkannoyed wrote: ↑Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:45 pm Downstairs areas and stairs in Atic Atac!

Well, we have this little marvel called Aces High (https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=16930), that has true ZX Basic vectors.

Hi!

I finally have the full review of vector games. I have categorized them into:
1. Games that are correctly categorized (not in the list);
2. Games that seems to use some kind of polygon/vector to create a FX, but is really not part of the game itself;
3. Games that does not have any vector at all;
4. Games that are missing from the list;

So, here it is. I'm going to pinpoint some titles later.
-- 8< -- -- -- -- -- -- --

Vectors as FX
ATF - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=305
Days of Thunder - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=1274

Not using realtime polygons
Captain Blood - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=810
Cosmic Shock Absorber - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=1085
The Duct - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=1533
Enterprise - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=1636
Flyer Fox - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 1811666666
Thunder Blade - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=5249
The Tube - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=5443
Strike Force Harrier - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=4949
Vectron - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=5548
Ace of Aces - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=65
Rescue on Fractalus! - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=4111
The Eidolon - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=1581
Glass - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=2052
Kung-Fu - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=2778
Vectorball - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=5547


Missing from the current list

Paul Woakes' Mercenary 1 Compendium - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=14485
Aces High - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=16930
747 Flight Simulator - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=43
Chuck Yeager's Advanced Flight Trainer - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php?cat=96&id=956
Deep Strike - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=1309

Vectors as FX
Thanatos - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=5218
Extreme - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=1699

I'm not a coder and don't know exactly what vector graphics are about, but reading all this thread I'm thinking of Hewson's Southern Belle & Evening Star... could they be included as well?

Hi! Yes, they are!
I'm just listing games that should be removed and some that might be added to this list https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... up_id=1024

Regarding The Wat of Clans (https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=13123), as far as I can understand, it is not a game, but a document explaining the development of one. It includes three screenshots/mockups, one of them look like a vector:



So, I think it is ok to leave it on the list, since we don't have more information.

I'm revisiting this thread, to start suggesting the changes on the database, and I want to point out a couple of very interesting games on the list.

In this particular case Strike Force Harrier - https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=4949 a flight simulator that seems NOT to be using any vector at all. Vehicles and buildings are just sprites, the horizon is a line that looks very choppy at an angle, and the only thing that could be some sort of vector triangle are the mountains, that really look like a pre-calculated element: