Games behaving differently on the Next

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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by toot_toot »

Not to derail the thread, but as the Kickstarter campaign says
Here is our answer: The Spectrum Next - an updated and enhanced version of the ZX Spectrum totally compatible with the original, featuring the major hardware developments of the past many years packed inside a simple (and beautiful) design by the original designer, Rick Dickinson, inspired by his seminal work at Sinclair Research.
Spectrum Next is an expanded and updated version of the ZX Spectrum, fully compatible (software and hardware) with the original. You can play any games, demos, use original hardware, you name it. And it also runs new software created more recently to make use of expanded hardware, including new graphics modes and faster processor speeds.
The Next Kickstarter campaign was launched as a machine that was "totally compatible with the original" and "fully compatible" with software. As this thread is showing, the Next isn't "totally compatible" with the original, there are many games that don't work. Maybe those issue will be fixed, but it was pointed out that the base hardware had been released for 2 years before the cased Next was released, I'm surprised those issues weren't identified or fixed because they should have been part of the basic design specification.

My issue is that post launch it's now being said that was never meant to be compatible, especially over HDMI, but I backed it and I imagine many people did, fully believing they were getting a machine that supported old and new software. The Kickstarter campaign page even has this:
The Spectrum Next is much more than just a renewed trip down the memory lane: there’s a world of new software out there that requires upgraded hardware to run -- from games to music and video players, from operational systems to ultra demos -- stuff that has been made for specific expanded hardware that most ZX Spectrum lovers never tried before, and can be quite difficult to find or install.
But now we're finding out that the Next doesn't actually support a lot of new games and demos, especially over HDMI. Again, hopefully this will be fixed.

Hopefully by listing games that are not compatible or behaving as normal, we can see fixes being implemented in the Next. Saying that the Next was never meant to be compatible with the original Spectrum is wrong, as is clearly stated on the Kickstarter page and it shouldn't be given as an excuse.
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by Seven.FFF »

toot_toot wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:32 pm The Next Kickstarter campaign was launched as a machine that was "totally compatible with the original" and "fully compatible" with software. As this thread is showing, the Next isn't "totally compatible" with the original, there are many games that don't work.
I responded to that already. It's fully compatible with 50Hz, which the original had. It's not fully compatible with HDMI, because the originals didn't have HDMI timings at all. It's exactly as compatible with 60Hz as the NTSC originals were (262 lines per frame instead of 312). In Pentagon timing mode its exactly as compatible as the Pentagon is, which is incompatible with either the PAL or NTSC originals.

It's exactly as compatible as the Uno, because the Uno doesn't have HDMI or 60Hz either. The Uno sticks to timings present in the original machines, and is compatible in those timings just like the Next is.

People are inventing some kind of reverse back compatibility that isn't even logically possible, let alone promised. Compatibility doesn't mean inventing new things and retrospectively applying those to original thing you're claiming compatibility with. It means taking the Venn diagram of all the things in the original and those same things in the new one, and seeing that they exactly overlap.

When people say that the Next is incompatible with an original Spectrum because it has additional convenience timings not present in the originals, it's logically equivalent to saying the toastrack is incompatible with the 48K because it doesn't fail to play AY music like the 48K does. Both are a logical fallacy because compatibility only applies in one direction, and you're trying to apply it in the other direction.
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by utz »

Lethargeek wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:56 pm
Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:00 am * You can try to speed up the spectrum to fit the right number of Ts in one vertical frame and halt the clock during portions of the horizontal scan to match the hdmi horizontal rate. This doesn't work either as it breaks audio. Beeper sound is sh*t and ay doesn't work for sampled music or stuff that does "sid sound".
Doubt there will be much audible difference, as the beeper usually needs to be toggled once in a few scanlines (more likely several scanlines), esp if these halts weren't lumped together. And even if it won't be satisfactory, buffering the sound is a lot easier than buffering the video frames.
The vast majority of multi-channel beeper engines toggle the beeper several times per scanline, not once in several scanlines.
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by Lethargeek »

utz wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:19 pm
Lethargeek wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:56 pm Doubt there will be much audible difference, as the beeper usually needs to be toggled once in a few scanlines (more likely several scanlines), esp if these halts weren't lumped together. And even if it won't be satisfactory, buffering the sound is a lot easier than buffering the video frames.
The vast majority of multi-channel beeper engines toggle the beeper several times per scanline, not once in several scanlines.
Ok, just checked the Dark Fusion menu music and it's about 100 cycles between the outs. But even then the 2nd part of my statement still stands true. And probably it even won't be necessary to buffer the whole frame of beeper sound, just a scanline.
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by R-Tape »

Could I just say a massive thanks to [mention]Seven.FFF[/mention] and [mention]Alcoholics Anonymous[/mention] for acting as the Next tech support on this forum. You've probably had to explain all this in several other places, so I hope you don't feel like it's a thankless task doing it here. Much of what you explain is the first time I've seen it (I guess most of this is happening on FB), and also over my head (so it's why it was necessary to hammer home why I couldn't see multicolour and other game timings were out :) ).

As far as the HDMI goes, the 'setting it up' section of the manual puts the HDMI as first choice, and even goes on to say "If you are using a monitor without an HDMI or DVI socket, you should be able to use a VGA connection instead." There's no getting away from the fact that HDMI doesn't work properly at the moment. I assume the difficulties arose after the manual was written. It's not a big deal for me; I just need to buy a VGA and then I should have exactly what I want.

Now that it's obvious that the timing problems mentioned are due to this HDMI issue, is it still useful to keep listing them? And should i rename the thread "Next games that don't work using HDMI" (or something?)
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by Lethargeek »

R-Tape wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:05 pm Now that it's obvious that the timing problems mentioned are due to this HDMI issue, is it still useful to keep listing them? And should i rename the thread "Next games that don't work using HDMI" (or something?)
no need to hurry with this, as there were other problems mentioned most likely unrelated to hdmi
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by DarkTrancer »

"The Spectrum Next - an updated and enhanced version of the ZX Spectrum totally compatible with the original..."
I've had my 2a board for a few years now and it's quite simple and most things are done for a reason.
Next mode and HDMI are not going to be fully compatible with 48k/128k/pent etc you have the other menu options for those.
If your playing old games such as 48k/128k or multicolored you need a vga connection and use the 48k or 128k "personality's" as they were/are called.These were built for exact timings needed for such games,so yep 100% (i think,personally i dont play old games on mine,its a next).There was lots of videos of Victor showing the demos that needed exact timing for multicolor and border effects.
If you want layer 2,turbo modes,sd card access,wifi,pi 0, 3 x Ay's then Next mode is the choice.
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by akeley »

I see that the excuses in this thread have moved into the realm of faux-semantics/logic: we are now hearing about "abstract concepts" and "logical fallacies" - that's never a good sign.

That's because we all know that when a Kickstarter pitch promises total compatibility AND support of the HDMI output, without any caveats whatsoever, then it's precisely what it means. It's really easy to revisit that pitch, there really is no ambiguity regarding the above. There is also no talk about seeking funds for an abstract gaming machine with some vague connection to the original Spectrum, some compatibility with old soft and some games working properly over HDMI. No, the obvious implication was that it will all work fine, this point is really driven home quite clearly over several separate paragraphs. That's why saying that "it wasn't promised" or trying to shift the blame to the users, by implying that everybody should be totally aware of highly technical intricacies of HDMI timings and old hardware behaviour is rather disappointing.

Up to this point I wasn't actually critical of the Next myself, merely seeking information and clarifications (and nevermind the general cheerleading and support prior to this thread), but my goodwill is evaportaing rather quickly, seeing the very poor quality of the arguments on show (and general tone implying it's all some entitled fantasy) in the recent replies. The fact it actually seems to be the very common occurence regarding many of these retro projects only adds to my exasperation.

Meanwhile, there is really no need for this kind of defensive rationalizations. Offering some sort of clear, noob-friendly solutions and/or roadmaps to solving the existing problems would do just fine. And above all, being honest and realistic in the fundraising pitches, even if it's understandably pushed to the smaller print.
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by Seven.FFF »

Lethargeek wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:19 pm no need to hurry with this, as there were other problems mentioned most likely unrelated to hdmi
We definitely want to know about any remaining problems that are unrelated to HDMI or 60Hz. The goal is still 100% compatibility with legacy games, as far as is technologically possible, so once you've triaged them by confirming there is still an issue in VGA 50Hz or RGB 50Hz, please do keep them coming.

Specific examples with download links are very helpful too, as often there are different versions out there.
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by DarkTrancer »

Offering some sort of clear, noob-friendly solutions and/or roadmaps to solving the existing problems would do just fine.
So you have misgivings about the Spectrum Next and you want perfect,cycle exact compatibility; use a Zx Spectrum 48k/128k/+2/+3 with ZX-HD interface.I've read good things about it.
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by TheSMoG »

A few notes:
---------------
1. Seems to me that the entire thread is completely missing the point that ALL ZX Spectrum models that came before the Next were incompatible to each other to some degree. The Next basically fixes that and the few games that do not work are individually addressed and fixed when reported as many require bugs in the ROM which breaks everything else. It also allows for obscure models to be perfectly recreated with the special conditions they required (eg Pentagon). I noticed that most really don't care about how things are done as long as they're done so I'll spare you the details but the Next even in Next mode can accurately work with 99% of software and peripherals for all ZX Spectrum models. You want microdrives? You've got them; you want Interface 2 games running on basically a +3? You've got them. This has never been attempted before and you're definitely not looking at that.

2. Digital Video output was first implemented as the main job for the Pi accelerator. The Pi has "just a tiny bit of processing power and RAM" (yes that IS SARCASM in case you missed it) compared to the Next proper and a full blown graphics chip that does that. It was decided (whether ANY agrees with that decision or not is not really important because none of you had to implement it) that this capability would be best if moved over to the Next's core. It's not an easy transition and as devs and potential backers started asking more and more features the ability to create a framebuffer using BRAM in the FPGA was reduced. As obviously none of the critics pays any attention to what has been written (and this thread does cover that fact but you just disregarded it completely which blows my mind; but I digress) this functionality is NOT a done deal yet. The solution that has been chosen eventually will see mini cores lacking the extra Next features (Because if what you want is a Nirvana game playing on a 60Hz HDMI monitor you really do not need the sprite engine or Layer2 or Layer3 graphics). So the answer to this blind criticism is that VERY SOON all this will work and better than any previous Spectrum model or clone has been able to do. End of story. A Nirvana game will NEVER work on something that doesn't have a ZXHD and is running on a TS2068 with a spectrum ROM for example because it cannot run on 60Hz.But it WILL work on the Next with a VGA display (or other CRT) RIGHT NOW and VERY SOON will do so with HDMI displays. You've waited for 3 years; you cannot wait for 2 more months? (More about that below).

3. The Next supports almost ALL hardware as I mentioned above; A non-compatible machine wouldn't be able to. Other clones (say the Omni and I'm not mentioning it to criticize it here) cannot turn off onboard hardware on demand; or even their expansion bus but I see no-one complaining regarding these incompatibilities which are real and not just pulled off thin air. So YES IT REQUIRES some work on the part of the user. I guess typing a couple of OUT commands while the entire database of all possible Spectrum peripherals hasn't been enumerated yet (and not even documented) as to make it more automatic, is TOO much work for some...(<----more sarcasm here). I'll leave this to your judgement but let's just say for the very well documented peripherals like the ZX Printer or the IF2/RamTurbo/Dandanator(Mini) the functionality has been included even in Next mode something that some claimed that could NEVER be done. The assumption that core and functionality improvement will not continue is just ... an assumption and TOTALLY FALSE at that.

4. Comparing the Next to the Uno is completely baseless. For one the ZX Uno's core had an almost 4 year headstart and cannot do half the things the Next can. It also cannot connect any peripherals that will work. It could, theoretically but nobody's done it because well... it requires work. That's not a criticism of the Uno either as I own two (And a zx dos). Going back to #2 above, the Uno and Dos do not do digital video; why? Because it's damn hard to do. And the Next has for the most part cracked it. Comparing cores that were purposely built to pass a "compatibility" test is a fake metric. What matters is how many ZX Spectrum programs can run on the Next. The answer is 99.999% of them and the 0.001% that's missing will soon be addressed. Not everything will run on the Uno however and for many reasons; some of them are design choices and others are just not having Garry Lancaster on their team. The end result is that much more stuff runs on the Next that does on the Uno. Plus it runs Next games (Note here: so does the ZX DOS which is a very good machine).

5. Finally two things in one: Future Proofing and the manual. Future proofing is a forward looking statement. The manual does not suggest you go dig out ancient monitors but to use modern ones instead that are cheaper and crisper. Some people don't like that. Some people also don't like the extra colours. Some people want to push the hardware of the original machine (one of the models anyway) to create new things (Bifrost/Nirvana/Multicolour comes to mind here). MORE POWER TO THEM. The Next will keep supporting these AND the Next specific software. Note here that the manual states unequivocally that it deals with Next features. In NEXT mode the suggested display is a DIGITAL display. The manual also says it's not an old Spectrum manual but wants to show the new features for a new generation of software that's upcoming. And it doesn't waver from that commitment. I should know. I WROTE IT and I WROTE it in such a way to encourage users to learn about the new features.

In conclusion; criticism is welcome if it's constructive and doesn't regurgitate things that have been discussed a thousand times already; sterile criticism without reading responses makes me wonder if some just want to hear the sound of their voice complaining. AA and RG told you above WHY things may not work right now. They also told you that THEY WILL. But nobody pays attention to that? I wonder why... Just wonder.
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by Alcoholics Anonymous »

Ast A. Moore wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:27 pm But the Next itself is not a Spectrum. It’s a concept of an abstract gaming machine with a few nods to the Spectrum (mostly in terms of its industrial design and menu UI). The Spectrum compatibility layer is just that—a compatibility layer. I don’t believe the designers had the goal of making it a 100-percent compatible Spectrum clone as a priority.
This absolutely false Ast. The machine is aimed for 100% compatibility with all the spectrums. 48k, 128k, +3 (except physical disk), pentagon in hardware and software first and foremost. Special attention is made to ensure peripherals will work properly. It starts with a spectrum architecture and extends the spectrum architecture in ways the original spectrum could have been developed. This has been true throughout the design. Had I been present in 1990, I could have made such a machine and this is exactly the way it could have been done and yet retain compatibility. It has gone further because expectations are in place compared to other similar projects and you want to deliver something fun to use for everyone -- nostalgiac gamers, new gamers, programmers, engineers. 28MHz wouldn't have happened, the pi wouldn't be there, maybe 128k timing would have been chosen instead of all the options (48k / 128k / +3 / Pentagon), perhaps it would have had fewer palettes, perhaps some internal clocks would be 14MHz instead of 28MHz (sprites would be 50 per line instead of 100, eg), etc, but the essentials could have been done. This is not an architecture that, btw does spectrum too, this is a spectrum architecture that has been developed further. It's tiresome to hear comments like that from people who know very little about it and it's especially disappointing that it is not understood that all choices made have always been tethered to the idea of what a follow up Spectrum model could have been if someone had developed the architecture further.

Others have extended the spectrum as well. Timex did, for example (and those improvements are present in the Next), and it had plans for going further with 256x192 and per pixel colour. Modern day developments do with peripherals (and many of these peripherals are integrated in the Next). The Russians did with the Pentagons / Scorpions / etc in memory and screen modes. The one who didn't improve on the Spectrum was Sinclair. The Spectrum really saw no real development past 1983. The 128k was instigated in Spain and picked up by Sinclair. It was not a large improvement. After that, keyboard, tape decks, disk were added but only to keep the machine alive in sales. The Spectrum was a dead end for both Sinclair and Amstrad.

Now have a look at the compatibility of those improved variants. The ts2068, tc2048, spectrum +3, any russian clone. And compare to the compatibility of the Next which extends far beyond any of those examples in features. Heck, how much of the 128k software can a 48k run? How much of the 48k software can't a 128k run? Now tell me that compatibility is not central to the Next's design.
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by Alcoholics Anonymous »

Lethargeek wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:56 pm
Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:00 am * You can try to speed up the spectrum to fit the right number of Ts in one vertical frame and halt the clock during portions of the horizontal scan to match the hdmi horizontal rate. This doesn't work either as it breaks audio. Beeper sound is sh*t and ay doesn't work for sampled music or stuff that does "sid sound".
Doubt there will be much audible difference, as the beeper usually needs to be toggled once in a few scanlines (more likely several scanlines), esp if these halts weren't lumped together. And even if it won't be satisfactory, buffering the sound is a lot easier than buffering the video frames.
It has a major impact Lethergeek. Why don't you try generating a solid tone, say, 880Hz. And then perturb the period by 10% every 15 periods or so and see if you can hear a difference. It wouldn't be acceptable to me.

You might be able to store the audio and stop its generation at the same time as the cpu. Then resample the audio to stretch it to an hdmi line. But the problem with this is, you are not thinking beyond what goes on in the ula.

How do you think peripherals are going to react to stopping the clock? Do you think microdrives and the sinclair network will function? Do you think attached disk drives will continue to work when the disk spins delivering data and the cpu stops reading? How about the Next talking to bit-banged serial or i2c devices? Will you be able to maintain stable bit periods (top baud rate in the Next is about 2Mbps)? When the pi delivers live data to the next, what happens with a stopped clock? Will you be able to load from tape recorded with speedloaders if the cpu speed in real time is incorrect?
Last edited by Alcoholics Anonymous on Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by akeley »

DarkTrancer wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:26 pm
Offering some sort of clear, noob-friendly solutions and/or roadmaps to solving the existing problems would do just fine.
So you have misgivings about the Spectrum Next and you want perfect,cycle exact compatibility; use a Zx Spectrum 48k/128k/+2/+3 with ZX-HD interface.I've read good things about it.
I'm using 48k & a +2 with a heap of mods/add ons already. But I also want to use Next and I have money set aside for the next Kickstarter. One does not exclude the other, and the only misgivins I might have are about some attitudes in response to simple queries. I would just like to know what the reality of using Next is, not the usual "everything is fantastic and perfect" angle, which is so prevalent in the retro-device world.

I spoke my mind on that already though, and I will say no more, because a) this is about Spectrum, my first computer love b) I have witnessed too many arguments of this kind already and have no interest in participating in another bitter and protracted one (even though it'd be quite easy to go down this path, for example after seeing TheSMoG's reply).

So, I'd much rather try to press rewind and try again, in a pure constructive/information mode. There is a lot of info in this thread already but it might get lost amidst our rambles and bickerings, and also some of it is a bit too in-depth and technical for mere mortals. It'd be nice to see it collected in one place and in concise form.

Some questions then:
-is there any sort of Next wiki we could put this info in, or read about it already?
-what are the current HDMI compatibility problems/solutions?
-what are some other current compatibility problems/solutions?
-which games/soft are affected?
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by toot_toot »

But if the Next is more compatible than those extended variants, why is it I can play the games mentioned in this thread as not working correctly on the Next perfectly fine on my Spectrum +2b with DivMMC, which is notorious for compatibility issues?

Like it’s been said in this thread, the disappointing thing is that the response seems to be very defensive/argumentative instead of admitting there’s an issue and trying to resolve it. All I wanted was a Spectrum that supported HDMI, played games from SD card and was compatible with the Spectrum’s library. All of those things were promised in the Kickstarter and it would be nice knowing that if a list of incompatible games were published - even if it was over HDMI - the response would be “we’ll fix it” instead of trying to put the blame on the people who actually funded making the Next.
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by R-Tape »

Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:55 pm
Ast A. Moore wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:27 pm But the Next itself is not a Spectrum. It’s a concept of an abstract gaming machine with a few nods to the Spectrum (mostly in terms of its industrial design and menu UI). The Spectrum compatibility layer is just that—a compatibility layer. I don’t believe the designers had the goal of making it a 100-percent compatible Spectrum clone as a priority.
This absolutely false Ast. The machine is aimed for 100% compatibility with all the spectrums. 48k, 128k, +3 (except physical disk), pentagon in hardware and software first and foremost. Special attention is made to ensure peripherals will work properly. It starts with...
If there's anything I'll cherish from this thread, it will be that Ast got something wrong.
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by +3code »

Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:55 pm The 128k was instigated in Spain and picked up by Sinclair. It was not a large improvement.
WHAAAT!??!?
128 k?
AY chip?
Pagined RAM?
48k "compability"?

:lol:

(Joke)

Edit: https://medium.com/@uto_dev/the-awakeni ... 32c7377788
Last edited by +3code on Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by TheSMoG »

toot_toot wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:52 pm But if the Next is more compatible than those extended variants, why is it I can play the games mentioned in this thread as not working correctly on the Next perfectly fine on my Spectrum +2b with DivMMC, which is notorious for compatibility issues?
Who said it doesn't? Your Spectrum is connected to a TV set. And if you connect the Next in the exact same way you'll play the exact same games. Now if you wait a little bit you'll be able to do that PERFECTLY using an HDMI display as well. Which is exactly what everyone's been saying.
Like it’s been said in this thread, the disappointing thing is that the response seems to be very defensive/argumentative instead of admitting there’s an issue and trying to resolve it. All I wanted was a Spectrum that supported HDMI, played games from SD card and was compatible with the Spectrum’s library. All of those things were promised in the Kickstarter and it would be nice knowing that if a list of incompatible games were published - even if it was over HDMI - the response would be “we’ll fix it” instead of trying to put the blame on the people who actually funded making the Next.
The arguments you speak of are always in response to a question. If you ask WHY? then you get the WHY. If you ask what's been done to solve it, then you get that answer. Sometimes in the same response. And I will repeat for the last time, that special cores will be made that will be able to do that without extra Next features so a frame buffer can work. Simple as pie. And no real problem. Just a bit of extra patience required for a totally perfect simulation of almost everything that can or has ever been done with a Spectrum this far. And a load of new features as well.

And if some of the people seem frustrated; that's because they've been working for free non-stop for years to bring you this machine. And asking the same questions again and again and again despite being covered a million times already without looking a bit around first can get very very tiresome especially when you've answered it 10000 times.
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by R-Tape »

TheSMoG wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:27 pm And asking the same questions again and again and again despite being covered a million times already without looking a bit around first can get very very tiresome especially when you've answered it 10000 times.
That's a lot of times, or perhaps you're being sarky again. I'd never heard the HDMI thing before*. There are a few speccy sites I won't go to. Where is this conversation happening?

*though I now understand that VGA is the way to do it now, and that HDMI will be working in future. Honestly that's good enough for me.
And if some of the people seem frustrated; that's because they've been working for free non-stop for years to bring you this machine.
That's called volunteering mate. Truth be told, I'm not so fond of collating screenshots and doing SQL.
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by Lethargeek »

Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:39 pm How do you think peripherals are going to react to stopping the clock? Do you think microdrives and the sinclair network will function? Do you think attached disk drives will continue to work when the disk spins delivering data and the cpu stops reading? How about the Next talking to bit-banged serial or i2c devices? Will you be able to maintain stable bit periods (top baud rate in the Next is about 2Mbps)? When the pi delivers live data to the next, what happens with a stopped clock? Will you be able to load from tape recorded with speedloaders if the cpu speed in real time is incorrect?
wow :? do you even realize that things like tape recorders and disk drives never were supposed to be cycle-precise?
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by TheSMoG »

That's a lot of times, or perhaps you're being sarky again. I'd never heard the HDMI thing before*. There are a few speccy sites I won't go to. Where is this conversation happening?
Obviously it's not 10000 times, but a quick search in the main Next group on Facebook I've counted more than 300 NEW posts on the subject the last 3 years. And that's one place alone where the same question is being asked again and again and again. I understand that not everyone follows the discussions everywhere. Which is also why many from the team keep on repeating the same answers. But you really need to put yourself in their (and my) place for once to see that once attacks that are really unwarranted start, a defensive position may be taken by some. It's really really exhausting because if anything we're trying to help people enjoy their Nexts.
*though I now understand that VGA is the way to do it now, and that HDMI will be working in future. Honestly that's good enough for me.
See HDMI is also working NOW with a few exceptions. The exceptions are fringe cases in the big picture of things (like normally running titles vs non-running titles) and refer to very modern developments only made possible recently (again BiFrost/Nirvana2 etc). Which is a gamble you have to make when you're faced with delivering something. The options behind every decision of the team are debated exhaustively and we weigh very carefully ALL their ramifications. There's no "I DECIDE AND ORDER" mentality in the group. Some decisions for prioritization were and still are extremely difficult. And they're made even more difficult by the existence of Next-only software. For example for years we did not develop a ULA+ functionality as we were threatened directly and indirectly with legal proceedings. What I mean to say is that there are a lot of things going on behind the scenes and if one keeps pace with the developments they can see nobody's resting on their laurels and instead keep pushing for bigger, better and higher ;)

That's called volunteering mate. Truth be told, I'm not so fond of collating screenshots and doing SQL.
Never said otherwise; but it's there to remind that although we live and breathe Next almost every moment we have, we also have a real life to tend to, and therefore sometimes the Next MAY take a back seat and stuff cannot advance as fast as we'd love to. Nobody in his right mind should believe even for a second that the team wants a less-than-perfect machine out there; we want a perfect machine, that's distinctively a Spectrum but also offers full and total compatibility in every possible scenario. Granted some things have not been anticipated and may even turn out to be impossible but that doesn't mean we stop trying. But we have lives too and all we ask for is some patience. We'll get there with EVERYTHING, with most of the things we already have... That's all
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R-Tape
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by R-Tape »

TheSMoG wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:29 pm Obviously it's not 10000 times,
Yep. Being sarky isn't always helpful.

but a quick search in the main Next group on Facebook I've counted more than 300 NEW posts on the subject the last 3 years. And that's one place alone where the same question is being asked again and again and again. I understand that not everyone follows the discussions everywhere. Which is also why many from the team keep on repeating the same answers. But you really need to put yourself in their (and my) place for once to see that once attacks that are really unwarranted start, a defensive position may be taken by some. It's really really exhausting because if anything we're trying to help people enjoy their Nexts.
I have put myself in their/your position, but equally—please understand that not all backers use FB at all. As I say, I have not seen discussion of this before. I did search the Next forum (and read the setting up section of your manual), and presumably it's there somewhere, but given that I didn't know what the problem was, I probably didn't search for the right thing (can you give a non facebook link btw?).
See HDMI is also working NOW with a few exceptions. The exceptions are fringe cases in the big picture of things (like normally running titles vs non-running titles) and refer to very modern developments only made possible recently (again BiFrost/Nirvana2 etc). Which is a gamble you have to make when you're faced with delivering something.
Multicolour is not a fringe case IMO, but honestly I'm not going to be difficult about it. I can only guess how much of a nightmare it was to get this thing out at all! People backed the Next for different reasons. When I get my VGA cable I reckon I'll have exactly what I'm after. Seriously, I'm "on-side" with this. Hostility doesn't help.
Never said otherwise; but it's there to remind that although we live and breathe Next almost every moment we have, we also have a real life to tend to, and therefore sometimes the Next MAY take a back seat and stuff cannot advance as fast as we'd love to. Nobody in his right mind should believe even for a second that the team wants a less-than-perfect machine out there, that's distinctively a Spectrum but also offers full and total compatibility in every possible scenario. Granted some things have not been anticipated and may even turn out to be impossible but that doesn't mean we stop trying. But we have lives too and all we ask for is some patience. We'll get there with EVERYTHING, with most of the things we already have... That's all
This is all good by me. I was a bit nervous starting this thread, because I didn't want to P?s? anyone off. It's not my fault it's been answered endlessly on a website I'm not part of.
That's all
Doesn't have to be :)
TheSMoG
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by TheSMoG »

Yep. Being sarky isn't always helpful.
Wasn't trying to be. But it's an acceptable American English expression to denote "A LOT" :D
I have put myself in their/your position, but equally—please understand that not all backers use FB at all. As I say, I have not seen discussion of this before. I did search the Next forum (and read the setting up section of your manual), and presumably it's there somewhere, but given that I didn't know what the problem was, I probably didn't search for the right thing (can you give a non facebook link btw?).
The Next FB group has over 8K members; Many that don't like it have an account just for the group (and the dev groups like the NextBASIC one and the Unofficial Cores group). We do post mostly where the most questions are without forgetting the forums and wikis and the like. That being said however, here's a recent non-fb one given a one second search in the official forum: https://www.specnext.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1556
Multicolour is not a fringe case IMO, but honestly I'm not going to be difficult about it.
I did qualify my comment with "in the big picture of things". Meaning it's a tiny percentage of the total. But I totally agree in principle: Not being a big part of the whole doesn't diminish its importance. If you aim for 100% compatibility you have to do it properly and cater to everyone. And we do but the larger issues are tackled first (that was the prioritization comment about)
I can only guess how much of a nightmare it was to get this thing out at all! People backed the Next for different reasons. When I get my VGA cable I reckon I'll have exactly what I'm after. Seriously, I'm "on-side" with this.

You really have no idea :D
Hostility doesn't help.
Absolutely; that's why it gets us too. After all we're only human and working really really hard on this. But it's always better if we can ALL get along just fine :)
This is all good by me. I was a bit nervous starting this thread, because I didn't want to P?s? anyone off. It's not my fault it's been answered endlessly on a website I'm not part of.
As I mentioned previously it's okay that people ask the same questions over and over again. We're used to it and we do respond the moment we see them. It's some interjections that become very hostile (see your mention above regarding hostility) that may get us occasionally. But generally speaking we have developed a resilient stomach :D
That's all
Doesn't have to be :)
Well as far as friction goes yeah it does :) As far as developing the platform further, absolutely not :lol:
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DouglasReynholm
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by DouglasReynholm »

I appreciate all the work that has gone into the Next, clearly it's been a huge effort to get it out, and despite the many naysayers, I knew we would get the machine in the end.

I worked as a hardware engineer in broadcast for a while for Snell and Wilcox. The sheer amount of video standards and timings out there is HUGE, and many HDMI 'compatible' sets don't actually work properly to standard either. Also, the potential 'cure' - on chip FPGA RAM, to act as a buffer.. well, FPGA RAM, is really, really expensive, compared to off chip RAM, but that would have too high latency to be a proper solution. FPGA (I used to work for Altera) devices can get pretty expensive. The solution we have, despite it being a Xilinx one (spits) is pretty bloody good.

The Next is a really nice, bespoke bit of kit. Not perfect, but pretty good, I'm having a load of fun with it.

I don't like the tone of this thread, it gives me bad vibes from other Spectrum oriented websites. If you don't own or want a Next, that's your prerogative. If you do, and don't like it, sell it for £££'s.

Edit: some de-obnoxificating
Last edited by DouglasReynholm on Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
toot_toot
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Re: Games behaving differently on the Next

Post by toot_toot »

TheSMoG wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:27 pm
toot_toot wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:52 pm But if the Next is more compatible than those extended variants, why is it I can play the games mentioned in this thread as not working correctly on the Next perfectly fine on my Spectrum +2b with DivMMC, which is notorious for compatibility issues?
Who said it doesn't? Your Spectrum is connected to a TV set. And if you connect the Next in the exact same way you'll play the exact same games. Now if you wait a little bit you'll be able to do that PERFECTLY using an HDMI display as well. Which is exactly what everyone's been saying.

I connect my +2b to my TV via RF, the games work. I connect via Scart, the games work. I connect my Next to my TV via HDMI, the games don’t work. I don’t see how that’s even comparable?
Like it’s been said in this thread, the disappointing thing is that the response seems to be very defensive/argumentative instead of admitting there’s an issue and trying to resolve it. All I wanted was a Spectrum that supported HDMI, played games from SD card and was compatible with the Spectrum’s library. All of those things were promised in the Kickstarter and it would be nice knowing that if a list of incompatible games were published - even if it was over HDMI - the response would be “we’ll fix it” instead of trying to put the blame on the people who actually funded making the Next.
The arguments you speak of are always in response to a question. If you ask WHY? then you get the WHY. If you ask what's been done to solve it, then you get that answer. Sometimes in the same response. And I will repeat for the last time, that special cores will be made that will be able to do that without extra Next features so a frame buffer can work. Simple as pie. And no real problem. Just a bit of extra patience required for a totally perfect simulation of almost everything that can or has ever been done with a Spectrum this far. And a load of new features as well.

And if some of the people seem frustrated; that's because they've been working for free non-stop for years to bring you this machine. And asking the same questions again and again and again despite being covered a million times already without looking a bit around first can get very very tiresome especially when you've answered it 10000 times.
Pardon my ignorance, can I ask what your involvement in the Next team is?
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