What game would you like converted to the Next?

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Nienn Heskil
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Re: What game would you like converted to the Next?

Post by Nienn Heskil »

ketmar wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:52 pm
Nienn Heskil wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:32 pm
this is simply not the context where you get to use the word 'elitism' or similar, not even close.
this is exactly it. either you're creating the machine for the masses
That machine already exists, and it's called 'PC'.

(Doesn't have to be an 'either or' sorta thing... either. :lol: )
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clebin
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Re: What game would you like converted to the Next?

Post by clebin »

I'm more familiar with the Amiga forums and it's the same thing there. "How dare you enjoy this thing that I don't want you to enjoy!"

I have a Spectrum Next; I waited a long time for it and I'm glad I did. It looks and feels like a Spectrum and I'm having a lot of fun with it. Quite frankly, I don't give a monkey's what anyone else thinks. Why should I?
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PeterJ
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Re: What game would you like converted to the Next?

Post by PeterJ »

clebin wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:40 pm
Quite frankly, I don't give a monkey's what anyone else thinks. Why should I?
That is the right approach. If it works for you, then that's excellent.
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Alcoholics Anonymous
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Re: What game would you like converted to the Next?

Post by Alcoholics Anonymous »

ketmar wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:30 am
PeterJ wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:26 am
This is rather controversial, but I'm rather disappointed. The games that I've seen don't look like Spectrum games. They have more of an Amiga or Atari ST look to my eyes.
exactly my feelings about Next games too. Next hardware specs are amazing, but i simply don't feel that it is a Spectrum anymore. of course, it is possible to ignore all advanced video features (or use them very sparingly), but then, what is the reason to have them?

don't get me wrong, please: i'm not saying that Next is a bad machine. it's just about personal feelings.
This is what games look like when you eliminate the colour clash. That is the quintessential difference between the 16-bit era and the 8-bit era.

It is up to the programmer to take it in the direction he wants to, whether that be retaining a spectrum "look" (which is very hard to define) or not. As we're still very early in the Next's software cycle, people are still finding their art style and learning the machine. There are many examples of retro looking games in the pc independent arena that remind me strongly of a spectrum look and would be doable on a spectrum next. These also take advantage of no colour clash, increased palettes, and so on but only pay lip service to 8-bit constraints. I'd personally like to see more of that. Another avenue is taking inspiration from or even updating existing spectrum games. Taking something like Flying Shark, eg, where the identical code could be run but instead of software scrolling the ula background, it is hardware scrolled. This is subtly different as then there is no colour clash in background elements during a scroll and you can add more colour there without consequences. Then replace the sw sprites with hw ones and you end up with a game that looks and plays better (you can see your bullets and enemies!) despite being near identical.

But I wouldn't want to artificially constrain any programmer. Let them find their own art style and what they think looks good. You're going to get all sorts because the platform has attracted programmers from the spectrum, the c64, the amstrad, the st, the amiga.

It's already been mentioned but Melkior's Mansion is an example of a retro-inspired pc game that only pays homage to 8-bit constraints. Certainly a spectrum look and doable on the Next:



I'm not sure if Super Crate Box would be 8-bit or 16-bit inspired but it still looks Spectrum-ish:



It is all in the hands of the programmer where he wants to go. The hardware just opens up different directions.
Last edited by Alcoholics Anonymous on Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ketmar
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Re: What game would you like converted to the Next?

Post by ketmar »

oh, i'm not saying thant Next is bad. just not my cup of tea. i actually love attribute clash, this is a huge part of "Speccy feel" for me. ;-) also, for me it is not interesting to program with hardware scrolling and sprites (even 128K with two screens is boring). this is prolly due to the fact that i don't have nostalgia about 8-bit games per se, only about 8-bit programming, and on a very limited platform w/o HW "accelerators" of any kind.
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PeterJ
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Re: What game would you like converted to the Next?

Post by PeterJ »

Alcoholics Anonymous wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:52 pm
This is what games look like when you eliminate the colour clash. That is the quintessential difference between the 16-bit era and the 8-bit era.
I don't quite see it that way. For me it's the number of colours and the colours used as well as the resolution. It's a very personal preference (and I appreciate that), but I was expecting Spectrum games at 256 X 192 with the same choice of colours, but without the clash.

Of course it's great that the machine offers routes to new developers and makes a Spectrum (type) machine available for the future. The machine needs to appeal to gamers with more modern tastes, and I understand that. I'm just a grumpy old sod still stuck in the 80s.

I'm obviously thankful for the work the Next team did in getting the machine produced, especially after the disaster of a previous crowd funding project.

I'm sad to say that I've only used my Next for about 30 minutes since I unpacked it. I'm sure I will use it more in the future though.
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clebin
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Re: What game would you like converted to the Next?

Post by clebin »

Alcoholics Anonymous wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:52 pm
It is up to the programmer to take it in the direction he wants to, whether that be retaining a spectrum "look" (which is very hard to define) or not.
I love how Melkhior's Mansion and Power Blade have interpreted the Spectrum look in completely different ways and yet, to me, they're both recognisably Spectrum-like. One has stuck to the 15 colour palette and the other has gone for (mainly?) 2-colours per square on the backgrounds. We may see a 256 colour game with colour-clash. Those styles interest me way more than the more generic-looking Next titles, but I'm not going to be too fussy if the game is good enough. So far, the generic-looking games seem to be just generally more generic and derivative.
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akeley
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Re: What game would you like converted to the Next?

Post by akeley »

clebin wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:40 pm
I'm more familiar with the Amiga forums and it's the same thing there.
I've quit eab recently because it was too suffocating. But now I'm watching the same thing on Commodore forums, with Mega65.

Funny thing I've just realized is that to me the quintessential, ZX-defining feature is actually the colour clash itself. I honestly don't even mind it that much. So I guess I should petition for the Next game devs to leave it in as well ;)
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Re: What game would you like converted to the Next?

Post by AndyC »

It's a tough thing, you can make games that just look like poor quality PC shareware and then it's quite hard to see the appeal of the Next. I don't really know that it has quite the right appeal to me at least, it's a quirky thing and maybe in time it will find the right kind of niche that makes the games feel retro even if they aren't. Games like Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon have proven that can be done (albeit for NES like looking games) while still being able to go further. The Saboteur remakes tried, although I don't quite think they were as successful to my mind.

Back to the original topic however, I was thinking the other day how strange it is we've never really seen anything like Warioware from the homebrew scene (either for the Next or plain Speccy). The kind of fast paced but very simple mini-game concept seems like something that wouldn't be beyond the bounds of 8-bit hardware and certainly not the more powerful capabilities of the Next.

I'd also quite like another Castlevania, albeit one more like the NES original than the Simon's Quest like approach of Spectral Interlude which I struggled to get into (much like SQ)
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Lethargeek
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Re: What game would you like converted to the Next?

Post by Lethargeek »

Alcoholics Anonymous wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:52 pm
This is what games look like when you eliminate the colour clash. That is the quintessential difference between the 16-bit era and the 8-bit era.
But for some people the important question is how it is being achieved
Alcoholics Anonymous wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:52 pm
It is up to the programmer to take it in the direction he wants to, whether that be retaining a spectrum "look" (which is very hard to define) or not. As we're still very early in the Next's software cycle, people are still finding their art style and learning the machine. There are many examples of retro looking games in the pc independent arena that remind me strongly of a spectrum look and would be doable on a spectrum next. These also take advantage of no colour clash, increased palettes, and so on but only pay lip service to 8-bit constraints. I'd personally like to see more of that. Another avenue is taking inspiration from or even updating existing spectrum games. Taking something like Flying Shark, eg, where the identical code could be run but instead of software scrolling the ula background, it is hardware scrolled. This is subtly different as then there is no colour clash in background elements during a scroll and you can add more colour there without consequences. Then replace the sw sprites with hw ones and you end up with a game that looks and plays better (you can see your bullets and enemies!) despite being near identical.
This is exactly why, as a staunch Spectrum programmer, i can't like Next's approach to gfx extensions. Basically you need to rewrite half of the game for a very different paradigm. For me it's to much hassle, to bothersome and not really interesting considering there is enough real retro platforms having similar features if one feels like playing with them.

oh well, for the same reason i didn't like almost any other Spectrum gfx extension attempts (with the notable exception of the ULA+) :lol:
Alcoholics Anonymous wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:52 pm
But I wouldn't want to artificially constrain any programmer. Let them find their own art style and what they think looks good. You're going to get all sorts because the platform has attracted programmers from the spectrum, the c64, the amstrad, the st, the amiga.
A programmer is constrained in any case. Next-gfx is just a different set of constraints (with some new constraints imposed instead of some older ones removed).
Alcoholics Anonymous wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:52 pm
It's already been mentioned but Melkior's Mansion is an example of a retro-inspired pc game that only pays homage to 8-bit constraints. Certainly a spectrum look and doable on the Next:

Alcoholics Anonymous wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:52 pm
It is all in the hands of the programmer where he wants to go. The hardware just opens up different directions.
Why couldn't we continue walking the same direction, just getting further wearing better shoes of the same type and style? :D

I mean, the (very much technically possible) ideal case would be the same Z80 code producing monochromatic (or clashy) pic on the classic Spectrum but a pic similar to this vid on the "new" Spectrum. The SAME code, down to the last bit. 8-)
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