Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

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Pegaz
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Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by Pegaz »

Very, very interesting discussion between the author of MiSTer fpga board (Sorgelig) and a few Spectrum Next fans, regarding the porting Next core to that system.
I still haven't decided who is right. :)

https://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=38476
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by azesmbog »

Forget that forum.
Mister has been here for a long time, and the discussion too:
https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=169
Sorgelig is not interested, but someone is trying.
The main problem is the different memory - SDRAM vs SRAM
Let's wait :)
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by akeley »

Yeah, it's being worked on. I hope they can make it, it'd be a great alternative to the real thing (I don't have a spare grand or whatever crazy price they asking for it on ebay now, and the Next KS might take some time).

Sorgelig deserves all the praise for his coding prowess and making MiSTer happen, but he's also well known for his oft-controversial, and grumpy opinions on some subjetcs (the man hates CRTs, for example :)
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by Pegaz »

azesmbog wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:21 pm Forget that forum.
Mister has been here for a long time, and the discussion too:
https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=169
Sorgelig is not interested, but someone is trying.
The main problem is the different memory - SDRAM vs SRAM
Let's wait :)
Thanks, there's a lot of interesting to read...
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by Pegaz »

I read a bit and watched several promo videos for a some major MiSTer cores, but I have to admit I’m not too impressed so far.
Boot time is similar as with baremetal emulators (about 4 seconds), most cores are not cycle accurate, there are also compatibility issues.
I see that the author is very pleased with its Spectrum core, but as far as I can see its basically a Russian clone by default, I hope it can still run standard Sinclair models with original timings, contended memory, etc.
Also, image is very stretched, especially with the C64 core, even in 4:3 aspect ratio.
Amiga core runs incomparably slower than the UAE4ARM with retropie on Pi4, which is unacceptable for a $200 machine.
Some cores are not user friendly at all, especially for beginners because they require too many settings.
Currently, the most valuable home computer cores are, in my opinion, for the Atari ST (cycle accurate), Acorn Archimedes and Spectrum TS-Conf model.
A quality Spectrum Next core, could be a turning point and it is definitely worth waiting for it to be completed.

This is just the first impression, based on very high quality video presentations like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLU9d1WQOWE
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by akeley »

Watching videos is not the best way to make in-depth comparisons.

I will try to answer some of your claims:

-cycle accuracy: From what I know Minimig is cycle accurate, which is quite a big achievement. Can you name cores which are not cycle accurate and how does it affect their everyday use?
-boot time is very short indeed for every core, how is that a bad thing? How many bare metal emulators do you know of? (me=2)
-Spectrum core is a "Russian clone"? Can you clarify? I suppose the claims about contended memory, etc are from the ZX Baremulator thread. I will ask about them on MiSTer forum, but I also don't think they matter that much if you can run 99,7% of the soft, baring some esoteric demos.
-Amiga runs "incomparably slower"? I don't understand. What configuration do you have in mind? It's supposed to be nearly 1:1 to the original Amiga 500/1200, it's one of the most mature cores.
-I've tested the image size on few cores vs original machines, including Spectum and C64, on CRT TVs. It's perfect. I don't know about HDMI, but I suppose it's the same.
-not user friendly: MiSTer's core's menus are actually much, much simpler than most emulators.
-compatibility issues: do you have any specific example in mind? None of the cores are 100% finished, because 100% is unattainable, but many are at something akin to 99%. The rest is being worked on and needs bug reports.

Having Atari ST, Acorn Archimedes or T-Conf is very nice but I wouldn't say it's the only selling point. There are multiple other cores of obscure machines you won't find anywhere else and plenty of 0-lag arcade cores - and consoles, which you'd otherwise have to buy Analogue machines for, costing hundreds of dollars each. Next would be nice too, but it's not really a priority for anybody, even me, given that it's still in its infancy.

I've been using emulators, original hardware and some other FPGAs for a very long time, and in my opinion MiSTer is the best crossover solution between all of them. For well under 200$ you got this tiny box which can deliver most of the 8-16 bit platforms with very high accuracy and extremely low lag (on HDMI, on CRT=0). This is something even a very powerful PC will struggle with.

Of course it's not perfect, still a work in progress and can't do some things which are possible on emulators, like save states (though it can emulate snapshot interfaces on some platforms)- advanced shaders or fancy frontends. I think it's well worth the trade off though.
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by Alone Coder »

Went here for Russian clones :)
(Personally, I can't stand a "ZX Spectrum implementation" that doesn't run software for Pentagon 1024 and ATM-Turbo 2+.)
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by Pegaz »

I found out about this board a few days ago, it's just the first impression from what I read and saw in this short time.
The Atari ST emulator is especially praised as cycle accurate, which is why I mentioned it.
If there are more, even better, I will be glad to pay attention to them.
When we talk about the Amiga, UAE4ARM works about 20 times faster and the most complex demos for A4000 work flawlesly.
This screenshot is from Pi3+, you can imagine how fast it is on Pi4.
Image

Regarding the Spectrum core, I like Russian clones, but I don't like that the official Spectrum core has an unofficial Spectrum model as default.
Original Sinclair ZX Spectrum 48/128k fully implemented, should be the default, other models as a bonus.
For advanced machines, like Next or TS-Conf, a separate core is the right way to go.
btw, Baremulator is one of the most accurate Spectrum emulators and together with SpecEmu and SpecIde is true benchmark for Spectrum software - thats my opinion.
I hope default MISTer Spectrum core can run the original Aquaplane correctly, we can try harder things later.
Also, I’m at least impressed with the C64 look&feel on MiSTer, frankly Ill choose BMC64 anytime.
Minimal configuration (main board + 128 mb costs $ 210), fully equiped MiSTer goes over $ 350.
For that money, everyone has the right to be picky. ;)
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by Pegaz »

Just few more questions:

The Amiga core has that minimig splash screen, which spoils the authentic look & feel when booting, can it be turned off somehow?
I am interested in Galaksija core in action, can you try it and give some impressions, maybe with short video ?
Thank you.

I just saw that it is possible to quickly change the Spectrum model with ALT + F1, F2 etc.
Now the only question is whether it is possible to set, say, the original Spectrum 128K as the default, so that it boots every time at the start?
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by ketmar »

flaming offtopic about ZX clones
Alone Coder wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:57 pm Went here for Russian clones :)
(Personally, I can't stand a "ZX Spectrum implementation" that doesn't run software for Pentagon 1024 and ATM-Turbo 2+.)
tried several times, but didn't found any "Z" or "X" in words "Pentagon" or "ATM". those are ZX-inspired, but not fully-compatible clones. 'cmon, Scorpion at least had quite useful Shadow ROM out of the box (and even M1, but nobody's ideal ;-).
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by azesmbog »

ketmar wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:30 am flaming offtopic about ZX clones
Well, not quite offtopic.
Well, TS does not understand the difference between software emulation and hardware simulation at all. Without this, it is useless for him to explain something further.

And it is useless to explain to Dmitry, although programs for Pent1024 are also launched.

And yes, Galaksija works pretty well for ZX-UNO, which costs much less.
Well, and much more, except of course the Next, for which there are already not enough resources.
Spoiler
"Давайте спорить о вкусе устриц и кокосовых орехов с теми, кто их ел, до хрипоты, до драки, воспринимая вкус еды на слух, цвет на зуб, вонь на глаз, представляя себе фильм по названию, живопись по фамилии, страну по "Клубу кинопутешествий", остроту мнений по хрестоматии." (с)
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by akeley »

FPGA representation is not emulation and it all works differently so you can't really compare things directly. The platforms in FPGA are aiming to be 1:1 above all, so things possible in emulators, like cranking up speed will not always work. Also the fact that a machine is emulated does not mean all the add ons or other things are - for example RTG is only being worked on now. On the other hand Minimig is cycle accurate, and RPi (even 4) isn't and that affects a lot of games negatively.

I don't know about A4000 most demanding demos, since I've never tried them myself yet. If we are talking A4000 without any accelerators you can give me the names and I can ask about them too.

Spectrum core doesn't have a Russian clone as default, not sure where you got that impression.

If you don't have MiSTer then you really can't comment on how it "feels" - or looks - just from a video :) Like I said, image quality is 1:1 and it definitely has less latency than BMC (which is, after all, an emulator).

Rpi is great, I was using it before for a long time and still do sometimes, but you have only two "bare" options. The rest is in Retropie, and while they're ok, they're also laggy. MiSTer's main selling point is no lag (and for me perfect display on CRTs), plus "the feel" you get from knowing they are actually trying to replicate the real hardware logic in Verilog.

The minimal MiSter cost is 130$ - because you can run some cores even on the bare board. For more you will need heatsink/fan+32SDRAM - that's additional 40$. That's it! You only need 128 MB for some NeoGeo games. All the other stuff like I/O or USB is just for convenience.

I will look at Galaksija in spare time. Also, I 'm interested in improving things so if you have any specific examples of core replicable flaws or limitations vs real hardware I can start asking questions.

[mention]azesmbog[/mention] sure, ZX Uno costs much less, but is only good for ZX Spectrum + clones. The rest is half baked and dead in the water. It's the reason I actually got MiSTer because I bought Uno first...now it's for sale :)
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by Pegaz »

[mention]akeley[/mention]

Thanks for the answers and yes, you are right, I will get the proper conclusions only when I buy and try it myself.
btw, do you know where I can buy a main board and 32 Mb of RAM at that price, in one place ?

Some demanding game demos require very fast Amiga with an accelerator card.
What I recommend to try are AmiQuake 2 (AGA), D1X_Rebirth (Descent port), Virtual Grand Prix as well as demos Silcut, Starstruck or The Castle (040 only).
In reality, you can run most of that software on the A1200 as well, but it will run unacceptably slow.
To check compatibility, I recommend Virtual Karting 1 and 2, Flink, Lionheart, Alien Breed 2 3D and Amber Moon.
About Russian clones, I watched several videos with the Spectrum core and the Pentagon model was always the default with trdos option in the menu.
Image
Today I saw, that its possible for example, with ALT + F1 to select native 48k mode, I'm just wondering if this setting can be saved and always be the default at every start?
Regarding C64, is there any detailed games compatibility list and is there C128 support for MiSTer ?
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by Alone Coder »

Pegaz wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:11 pm About Russian clones, I watched several videos with the Spectrum core and the Pentagon model was always the default with trdos option in the menu.
Pentagon was usually supplied with TR-DOS in the top (at least in my city). Pentagon users of my circle also added Mr Gluk Reset Service firmware, that is quite useful (boot, commander, text editor, screen keeper, track0 keeper, CMOS setup, AY, COVOX, and keyboard test, disk doctor, memory/turbo options, and a lot of hotkeys).
Image
The thing was even featured in "Homer Simpson in Russia 2". It is included in ZX Evo firmware and in Unreal Speccy emulator.
Pentagon users in Ukraine preferred a less functional service ROM named MadROM: https://worldofspectrum.org/infoseekid.cgi?id=0021765

BTW, when you run DosBox, do you expect an IBM 5150, or a clone even without IBM in it? :)
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by Pegaz »

Alone Coder wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:54 pmBTW, when you run DosBox, do you expect an IBM 5150, or a clone even without IBM in it? :)
Always IBM 5150, of course. ;)
Seriously, I'm pretty familiar with Russian clones, one of the strongest TS-Conf already has its own separate core.
It was quite natural for me that the ZX Spectrum core be with some original Sinclair model 48 or 128K, not with another unofficial russian model, that's all.
There are also differences in compatibility, some games and demos do not work properly on Pentagon, some games work faster due to lack of contended memory etc.
Still, it seems to be solvable in options, so it doesn’t matter anymore...

The bigger problem is Amiga, because obviously the CPU/FPU implementation is not complete, the speed and precision are enough mostly for the A500/A1200, without support for demanding titles and demos.
I noticed on misterfpga forum that some hybrid solution was proposed, where that part should be emulated from the UAE through ARM cpu, but I didn't go into details.
There are also complaints about Elite in the BBC B core, which is not displayed correctly and that is the best game on the system.
There is small or no chance of supporting stronger consoles PS1, Saturn, N64, Dreamcast, PSP, Gamecube, 3DO, NDS, and all this works very well on pi 4.
As I said, Archimedes, Atari ST, TS-Conf and a couple of lesser known models still attract me the most, it would be worth having a MiSTer, just because of them.
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by akeley »

[mention]Pegaz[/mention] honestly mate, you need to look at MiSTer from a completely different point of view, otherwise you will not "get" it and will never be happy with it. Comparing it to emulation in this way is pointless.

I've already said that Amiga is nearly 1:1, but that means those Amiga models - not a heap of add ons, like accelerators. FPGA recreates hardware, so somebody would have to recreate every one of them too.

You should also stop worrying about every little thing you read on the forums, like that Elite thing. MiSTer is a young platform and a work in progress (while emulators have been around for decades). The way it works is that people test cores to the bone, report bugs and somebody fixes them...eventually. Sometimes it takes time because there is not that many skilled devs and also some platforms get more attention than others.

As an aside...N64 works "very well" on RPi? It does not even work very well on PC so... :) But, right, it will never be possible on MiSTer. But I don't care because it's still the best middle ground between real hardware and emulation for 8-16 bit platforms. For the later stuff I either prefer real hardware or a powerful PC.

I don't think many people sell boards themselves (some do), it's best to buy the board separately from a big place like Mouser. It all depends where you are in the world. For parts, you can check Sellers thread on the forum for some solid ones: https://misterfpga.org/viewforum.php?f= ... a9cd9d4502

Also, [mention]rhester72[/mention] knows much more about MiSTer than me, maybe he can answer some of your questions.
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by Pegaz »

I’ve always like to learn from other people’s experiences, so I set aside some of my free time to read and learn as much as possible on the MiSTer dedicated forum, that’s all.
You asked me to give specific examples of core flaws or limitations and I mentioned some.
I am not looking for a perfect system, but truth is that theres still a lot of room for improvement here.
The same goes for Pi, PC or any other retro system, of course.
Still, the Pi 4 with 2Gb Ram costs just $ 35 and offers really a lot, to the vast majority of casual retro fans.
Low latency is great, but some other things I mentioned are also important.
That "feeling" of using real hardware can be subjective and everyone can interpret it according to their own criteria.
Despite the undeniable advantages, I think that the software in fpga implementation is still a kind of emulation.
For example Spectrum Next is pretty much real to me, along with its unique keyboard and faithfull I/O support, but still not ideal machine.
Both software emulators or fpga have their weaknesses and strengths, that's pretty obvious.
btw, the N64 is a stubborn system for emulation, but i'm not the only one who's happy with how it looks on pi4 now. :)
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by Alone Coder »

Pegaz wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:38 pm Seriously, I'm pretty familiar with Russian clones, one of the strongest TS-Conf already has its own separate core.
It's not a clone, it's a fancy FPGA platform with some generic ZX Spectrum compatibility (namely a subset of Pentagon 1024 features). Its extra features such as video modes can't be attached to any ZX Spectrum clone, because everything is tied to 28 MHz and fast internal SRAM in FPGA, and it lies between CPU and RAM, not as an external device.
I was talking about true clones (that were called Spectrum in Russia because we never saw the original), made with 74xx chips, used since 90's (the time when ZX Spectrum was thought to be dead in the West), with lots of software titles produced and ongoing support in ex-USSR. Namely, TR-DOS releases are not 1% of all ZX Spectrum titles as one might think, but around 50% (virtually every tape game and demo disked + around 500 own games + many hundreds of diskzines + several thousands of demos + a lot of utilities). Of these, around 1000 require some hardware trick found only in clones (uncontended VRAM, extra RAM, extra video modes, COVOX, General Sound etc), over 400 of these are ATM-Turbo titles, and the most of the rest are for different Pentagons.
Russian hackers are still trying to adapt every new release for TR-DOS and Pentagon timings (there are schematics for making Pentagon timings in green Scorpion, ATM, and Profi). The reverse (adapting Pentagon/ATM software for original 48/128K) is almost impossible.
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by Pegaz »

I know the advantages of Russian clones, but it will never and cannot be a replacement for the original Sinclair ZX Spectrum in terms of identity.
Am I asking too much, if I want from MiSTer to support the original 48k Spectrum by default, with other models as an addition?
I realy hope thats solvable, with some setting adjustments.
Many of us primarily use tape images on classic models, instead of looking for Russian patched versions on trdos diskettes.

Speaking of which, do you know where I could find a fixed version of MDA demo ?
I found a version in scl format, but it still doesn't work properly on Pentagon.
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by ketmar »

Alone Coder wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:23 pm The reverse (adapting Pentagon/ATM software for original 48/128K) is almost impossible.
that's exactly why they are not ZX Spectrums. they simply cannot run ZX Spectrum software as ZX Spectrum does. so emulating those non-speccys may be a bonus, but unless the main goal of the board is to emulate some clone, genuine Speccy should be the default option.
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by Alone Coder »

ketmar wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:22 am that's exactly why they are not ZX Spectrums.
You have no chance in rewriting the history. They were called Spectrums in the press throughout the 90's and 00's and they will forever be.
The compatibility between initial and newer models of a platform is always one-sided. For example, 48K can't run 128K games, but Pentagon can.
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by ketmar »

Alone Coder wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:17 pm
ketmar wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:22 am that's exactly why they are not ZX Spectrums.
You have no chance in rewriting the history. They were called Spectrums in the press throughout the 90's and 00's and they will forever be.
ah, sure, the press is The Definitive Source now. i see.
Alone Coder wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:17 pm The compatibility between initial and newer models of a platform is always one-sided. For example, 48K can't run 128K games, but Pentagon can.
no, it can't. that's why we have "fixed for pentagon" software. it shouldn't be required if pentagon is compatible with 128K.

also, you're mixing two completely different things here. 48K Spectrum never claimed to be compatible with 128K. but Pentagon claims compatibility with 128K, yet in reality it is not compatible with any official Spectrum model. that's why, you know, emulators have "pentagon mode".

p.s.: 48K vs 128K compatibility issues are tangential here too. they're official models. and we're talking about unofficial clones here.
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by Alone Coder »

I see, your computer is not a PC, because it's "unofficial" and can't run CGA games accurately.
Pentagon was blamed for its timings from the beginning, but the software is already fixed for Pentagon (even the demos with multicolors like NMI 3, Shock, Echology, even the Timex demo Timmy). If there are rare games still not fixed, you can send them to Goodboy, Slider and Tiboh, and they will work at Pentagon. You can't send Russian Spectrum software to anybody to fix it for old machines, because they are slower. Russian Speccy scene exists, and it exists mostly at Pentagon and ATM, no matter what you want.
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by ketmar »

Alone Coder wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:50 pm software is already fixed for Pentagon
Alone Coder wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:50 pm Russian Speccy scene
ok, i see. "we have Spectrum, but we have to fix Spectrum software for it to work on our Spectrum". and the blue is the new green.

i fully understand that you want to have your own "Spectrum scene", but let's be honest: it is Pentagon scene, not Spectrum scene. what is so wrong with just stop pretending that it is Spectrum, and calling the thing with its proper name?
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Re: Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

Post by akeley »

This argument is a bit metaphysical. Perhaps we can establish a new "No true Spectrum?" fallacy? :)

In any case, you can just save your preferences in MiSTer and it will boot into whatever machine you like.
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