Spectrum Next core on MiSTer fpga?

[ketmar]

and let me ask it again: what is so wrong with calling it "Pentagon scene"?

This is simply incorrect. The 'Pentagon compatibility' thing was mostly pushed by a number of diskmags, as well as the so-called 'demo scene'. It was popular in some regions, in others it was virtually unknown. On the whole, there existed quite a lot of clones and they didn't all have the 'Pentagon compatibility'. Because the intention behind these clones was to adhere to the ZX Spectrum architecture (although with various success), it is more appropriate to call it the 'Spectrum' scene, even if that's confusing for some people.

"Spectrum scene" with software that often doesn't work right on Spectrum. yes, this is the perfect name, i couldn't see anything wrong with it. ;-)

let's face the fact: most Speccy clones in xUSSR were Pentagons. and most software was written for Pentagons, often utilising no floating bus protection in interrupt tables, putting I below #8000, and so on. so unless the author himself said that his software is 100% compatible with the original Spectrum(s), and unless that claim was verified on the original hardware (or on a precise emulator that emulates all important bugs of the original hw), it is Pentagon software, not Spectrum software. using Pentagon name for all Pentagon software is the easiest way to avoid any guesswork.

[Nienn Heskil]

let's face the fact: most Speccy clones in xUSSR were Pentagons. and most software was written for Pentagons, often utilising no floating bus protection in interrupt tables, putting I below #8000, and so on.

No, that's not how facts work, and/or are established. I don't know if we even need to go that far though, because so far you mostly sound like one of those 'had only 48K+tape in a town of Mukhosransk in the 90s' users drawing conclusions in 2020 based on which configuration is set as default in UnrealSpeccy, tbh.

Pentagon was one of the popular models, nothing more. Just check out the press from the time, there's a lot of critique in respectable publications targeted at 'bad coders' using machine specific tricks such as the infamous 'OUT (#FD),A'. The IM2 table thing, are you for real this was discussed practically anywhere. 'Putting I below #8000' is also unrelated to the Pentagon, we hardly had any clones that suffered nasty side effects from this like the main line.

[Seven.FFF]

Let’s watch another thread go south and get locked because of rude, arrogant people.

[ketmar]

[mention]Seven.FFF[/mention] sorry, you're right. i never intended to start this offtopic here, but it still happened. my bad.

[akeley]

Meanwhile, the contention model on MiSTer has been fixed, so now the ZX core should be cycle accurate.

[Pegaz]

Meanwhile, the contention model on MiSTer has been fixed, so now the ZX core should be cycle accurate.

That is very good news.
Can you do some tests for that latest ZX Spectrum core ?
We have a separate topic for emulator testing and it would be good to have fresh data for MiSTer.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=752&hilit=timing+test

[akeley]

Sure, when I have a spare moment, been crazy busy recently...

[Morcar]

I'm going to get a ZXDOS+ instead of the Next because I refuse to pay a crazy price.

It'll do what I need it too and the device can be other systems.

[akeley]

ZX DOS+ costs 130E. It's actually more than MiSTer, which is also pretty crazy It's also a continuation of ZX Uno, which got abandoned and left in the cold. If the extra (non-Spectrum) cores on ZX DOS+ are the same as the ones on Uno then they're not really up to scratch.
He says it can do Next, which could be a sellinmg point if it really works 100%. I'm just very cautious about all these other FPGAs.

As for MiSTer, the Next core is now available - sort of. Unfortunately you also have to buy a special SDRAM (32MB+2MB) to run it.

[antoniovillena]

ZX DOS+ costs 130E. It's actually more than MiSTer, which is also pretty crazy It's also a continuation of ZX Uno, which got abandoned and left in the cold. If the extra (non-Spectrum) cores on ZX DOS+ are the same as the ones on Uno then they're not really up to scratch.
He says it can do Next, which could be a sellinmg point if it really works 100%. I'm just very cautious about all these other FPGAs.

As for MiSTer, the Next core is now available - sort of. Unfortunately you also have to buy a special SDRAM (32MB+2MB) to run it.

MiSTer FPGA doesn't cost 130EUR. ZXUNO+ is active development. ZXDOS+ runs Next 100%. I don't know what you win spreading Bull???s here and in other forums against me:

https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?p=10708#p10708

[akeley]

MiSTer FPGA doesn't cost 130EUR. ZXUNO+ is active development. ZXDOS+ runs Next 100%. I don't know what you win spreading Bull???s here and in other forums against me:

https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?p=10708#p10708

Glad you posted that link to MiSTer forums, so more people might be aware of your false and dishonest advertising regarding that composite add on.

As for this thread:
-MiSTer costs 130USD. With 32 SDRAM (which is what's needed to run 99% of stuff) and OTG USB its price is ~135 Euro.

-I was talking about ZX Uno, not ZX Uno+. My comments are based on the fact that I bought it few months ago, because of extra cores, used it for few days and bought MiSTer straight away. The extra cores are half baked and trying to update it or find any information is a nightmare. People on its forums said its abandoned, and that's how it certainly looks to me. So if somebody wants to buy Uno+ for extra cores, they really should do little research beforehand.

I've never said Next does not work. What I said was "if it really works 100% then it could be a selling point". So, yes, in that case it would, if somebody really wants Next and does not care about the extras MiSTer offers. But seeing as my experience with your explanations regarding that composite adapter (which was supposed to be flawless) are very far from satisfactory (putting it mildly) then I'd wait for second opinion on that.

I'd appreciate if you thought your reply through, if you intend to make one, because I have no intention of participating in yet another surreal back-and-forth like in that MiSTer thread.

[PeterJ]

Please keep things friendly everyone. Thanks

[akeley]

Sorry [mention]PeterJ[/mention], but this is about commercial products. Sometimes it's not possible to talk about them without comparisons to other ones or pointing out flaws. I'm always trying to maintain a civil tone though.

[PeterJ]

Thanks [mention]akeley[/mention],

Valid comparisons are fine.

[antoniovillena]

As for this thread:
-MiSTer costs 130USD. With 32 SDRAM (which is what's needed to run 99% of stuff) and OTG USB its price is ~135 Euro.

This is completely false. Put me a link where I can buy for that price. Also for Next core you need another SDRAM+SRAM module that costs 38 EUR+shipping.

-I was talking about ZX Uno, not ZX Uno+

ZXUno and ZXUno+ shares the same cores. It's clear you have no idea of my products. You never have bought from me and your hate messages against me has no foundation.

I'd appreciate if you thought your reply through, if you intend to make one, because I have no intention of participating in yet another surreal back-and-forth like in that MiSTer thread.

Well shut your mouth if you don't know what you're talking about

[antoniovillena]

Thanks @akeley,

Valid comparisons are fine.

The comparisons are not valid. Because of this person now I have to show a video of ZXDOS+ working. Nothing he said against me can prove it. Not even well informed about my products

[PeterJ]

Just as an impartial person in this discussion, the cheapest price I can find for the DE10 only is £103.97 (UK Pounds). I believe this includes VAT and shipping.

This is approximately 113.24 Euros and 133 USD.

https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/ ... dJ5w%3D%3D

If quoting prices please add a link and remember tax and shipping. Then hopefully everyone will be happy.

[antoniovillena]

Just as an impartial person in this discussion, the cheapest price I can find for the DE10 only is £103.97 (UK Pounds). I believe this includes VAT and shipping.

This is approximately 113.24 Euros and 133 USD.

https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/ ... dJ5w%3D%3D

If quoting prices please add a link and remember tax and shipping. Then hopefully everyone will be happy.

VAT is not included. This is only the DE10 nano. With VAT is about 140-145 EUR. Also I need a link for a SDRAM+SRAM module+shipping. Not the standard 32MB because is not capable to run Next core.

[PeterJ]

Thanks [mention]antoniovillena[/mention],

I have never purchased from this company so happy to take your word on this, but when I go to checkout it says:

All prices include duty and customs fees on select shipping methods.

It is normal for these types of companies (RS and Farnell do the same) to display prices excluding VAT so I'm sure it's down to my incorrect interpretation.

So including VAT for this part only we have £124.76

[PeterJ]

Also I need a link for a SDRAM+SRAM module+shipping. Not the standard 32MB because is not capable to run Next core.

Assuming this is the correct part, they are for me £21.49 (32MB) or £53.99 (128MB) with free UK shipping.


https://misterfpga.co.uk/product/mister ... don-board/

https://misterfpga.co.uk/product/mister ... mb-module/

[antoniovillena]

I buy from digikey and mouser, mostly digikey. About 20 units of de10 nano every week. This is my current stock

[antoniovillena]

Assuming this is the correct part, they are for me £53.99 with free UK shipping.

https://misterfpga.co.uk/product/mister ... mb-module/

This not the correct part. Next core needs SRAM memory. That module is only SDRAM. There is no official part for 32MB+2MB module. This is the part:

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Hardwar ... SDRAM_SRAM

It's a prototype developped by Sorgelig 3 years ago. It costs 38 EUR without shipping. So the total is at least 183 EUR without shipping. That's for a limited MiSTer (not all NeoGeo games available) without case, without IO addon (analog outputs), without hub, but capable to run Next core

[PeterJ]

I buy from digikey and mouser, mostly digikey. About 20 units of de10 nano every week. This is my current stock

Thanks for the correction [mention]antoniovillena[/mention].

Wow, can I play Jenga please!

[ZXDunny]

Damn. Now I'm wondering if once the SRAM issue is resolved I might be able to run a MiSTer inside a Next case for the ultimate in FPGA fun.

[Seven.FFF]

The Next design pushes async SRAM access patterns beyond what sequential SDRAM can keep up with. Typical solutions like SDRAM cache don't work well enough here, because much of the timing pressure comes from video RAM, which can't slow down the machine when cache misses occur. Misses would give video glitches or sparkles. Most of the Next's video RAM is in fast BRAM inside the FPGA, but because of the way layer 2 can be moved around over almost the entire memory map within a few Ts to facilitate multiple back buffers, at least 1792KB of SDRAM would need to be cached, which is unfeasible. DMA is another pressure on the timings, but this has a sequential pattern so a fancy cache algorithm with privileged knowledge of the DMA program might be able to do DMA without too much slowdown. Because of the first issue, I'm not expecting SDRAM to be implemented for the Next core any time soon (although I will be pleased if it is!). Perhaps it can with higher speed SDRAM, but that doesn't help the MISTer.