Obique vs isometric

[Stefan]

While looking for BladePT's isometric game, I ran into Ball Breaker.

It claims to be isometric, but it is obviously oblique projection and not isometric projection.
This also applies to All or Nothing and, surprise, surprise, Ballbreaker II.

Quickly scanning through the list (without adding urls for all):

Oblique:

• All or Nothing
• Ball Breaker
• Ballbreaker II
• Blue Max
• Colony
• Enigma Force
• The Fifth Quadrant
• Mega-Sphere
• Neighbours
• Orbix the Terrorball
• Pac-Mania
• Paperboy
• Paperboy 2
• Pedro
• Rasputin
• Scorpions: Die Machine
• Sophistry
• Spi-Droid
• Troll

There are also a few that are not isometric, but something which looks isometric-ish but which is not keeping 120 degrees between two axis.

• Crystal Castles
• Frontiers
• Inside Outing
• Komando
• Labyrinth
• Nether Earth
• W*H*B

[Rorthron]

This is not my area of expertise, but the subject did come up before in the WoS forums:

https://worldofspectrum.org/forums/disc ... ture-games

It might make sense to rename the whole category as 3D Parallel Projection, rather than subdivide it. If we are to subdivide it, we need to deal with different types of axonometric projection: isometric, dimetric and trimetric. Strictly true isometric is not possible on rhe Spectrum, because of the screen resolution. Games like Knight Lore are actually dimetric, but we can probably reasonably call them isometric as they are as close to isometric as possible. But there are also games genuinely using dimetric and trimetric projection not as an approximation for isometric. We would also need to include titles like TLL and Trashman, which use oblique projection.

[Rorthron]

For what it's worth I came up with these classifications in the WoS thread:

1/ Axonometric projection:
a/ Dimetric - Ant Attack, Knight Lore, Head Over Heels, Fairlight, Highway Encounter, etc
b/ Trimetric - Nether Earth, etc

2/ Oblique projection:
a/ Right-angled - Android Two, TLL, Cyclone, Escape, Trashman, etc
b/ Acute-angled - Rasputin, Paperboy, etc

3/ Perspective projection:
a/ Wireframe - Elite, Starion, Startstrike, etc
b/ Filled wireframe - Starstrike II, Driller, etc
c/ Landscaping - Lords of Midnight, Sorderon's Shadow, etc.

[Ralf]

It claims to be isometric, but it is obviously oblique projection and not isometric projection.

You are technically right but in computer games area it is generally accepted to just call such and similar stuff "isometric".

And no people, please don't correct the database I can imagine a game when I hear "isometric" but "oblique" means
nothing to me.

[Rorthron]

It is generally accepted to just call such and similar stuff "isometric".

If we assume "isometric" here refers to any form of parallel projection on three different axes, I think all should be well with the world, and we can avoid opening the Pandora's box of different projection methods.

[Stefan]

It claims to be isometric, but it is obviously oblique projection and not isometric projection.

You are technically right but in computer games area it is generally accepted to just call such and similar stuff "isometric".

And no people, please don't correct the database I can imagine a game when I hear "isometric" but "oblique" means
nothing to me.

Having had a technical drawing class in third and fourth form (and possibly fifth, but can't remember) at high school a long long time ago, seeing these oblique abominations classed as isometric just hurts my eyes. The pragmatic isometric projection vs oblique projection are two very different styles IMHO.

Renaming 'isometric 3d' to 'some sort of 3d projection' is also fine to me, currently it's like saying a banana is an orange. So just call them all fruit and problem is solved.

[Ralf]

seeing these oblique abominations classed as isometric just hurts my eyes

And does it hurt you when people call tomato a vegatable?

[druellan]

It claims to be isometric, but it is obviously oblique projection and not isometric projection.

You are technically right but in computer games area it is generally accepted to just call such and similar stuff "isometric".

I think the same. I understand that we are mixing a lot of things in this bag, including "filmation" titles that might have their own category, but the idea is to group similar games under an easy and recognizable label. Groups have, however, a description field, so we can start populating that, like: "All 3D isometric perspective games, including Filmation-like titles and other works that make use of similar oblique perspectives."

[Einar Saukas]

I agree we shouldn't use the term "isometric" incorrectly. However I also agree that "isometric" is the word that everyone will be looking for, therefore it won't help anyone to replace it with another term that nobody will understand.

I propose a trade-off. We can rename this group to "Isometric/Parallel 3D Graphics" and add the following description:

"Programs featuring 3D graphics with parallel projection (such as isometric)."

This way, the description will be technically correct without removing the word "isometric".

[Stefan]

seeing these oblique abominations classed as isometric just hurts my eyes

And does it hurt you when people call tomato a vegatable?

I did not follow farming classes for a few years, so, no.

But... since before googling it I thought a tomato was a vegetable, your analogy is flawed https://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-why ... -vegetable

IMHO I find isometric (or nearly isometric due to pixel restraints) much easier on the eye than oblique, which has a very forced perspective look.

[Stefan]

You are technically right but in computer games area it is generally accepted to just call such and similar stuff "isometric".

I think the same. I understand that we are mixing a lot of things in this bag, including "filmation" titles that might have their own category, but the idea is to group similar games under an easy and recognizable label. Groups have, however, a description field, so we can start populating that, like: "All 3D isometric perspective games, including Filmation-like titles and other works that make use of similar oblique perspectives."

Entries can belong to multiple groups, so in the case of the Ultimate titles I would add the groups 'filmation' and 'isometric'.
You could even add a generic '3D' group to all current isometric titles and then add an additional 'isometric' group to the ones that are nearly isometric.

[Rorthron]

I agree we shouldn't use the term "isometric" incorrectly. However I also agree that "isometric" is the word that everyone will be looking for, therefore it won't help anyone to replace it with another term that nobody will understand.

I propose a trade-off. We can rename this group to "Isometric/Parallel 3D Graphics" and add the following description:

"Programs featuring 3D graphics with parallel projection (such as isometric)."

This way, the description will be technically correct without removing the word "isometric".

You also need to consider games like Escape, Trashman, Android Two, TLL, Cyclone. They use a form of parallel projection (right-angled oblique projection), but are not included in the group I think it makes sense to keep them separate, as they use character-based graphics.

My suggested definition for the group would therefore be:

"Programs that use a form of parallel projection with at least one diagonal axis. This includes all forms of axonometric projection (including isometric) and acute-angled oblique projection.'

The group name could just be "Isometric and similar graphics".

[catmeows]

You are right, but in general, "axonometry" is close enough to describe graphic style and how orientation in space works.
I do IT for money but by education, I'm cartographer and by my opinion you care about differencies between axonometry and obligue projection just when you do cartography. And as you mentioned, some of projection used in games are quite custom so unless you really want provide exhaustive list of all projections let stick with the "axonometry" word.

[4thRock]

I wouldn't mind renaming the feature as "Isometric" 3D Graphics (with commas) to acknowledge all these issues.
But I think that what matters here is the gameplay and control style, not just graphics.
"Isometric" means you play on a pseudo-3D environment and character movement is not in straight UP/DOWN/LEFT/RIGHT. You move in angles defined by the projection.

If you go by graphic style alone, then Renegade is "isometric" (I'd say Cabinet or Cavalier projection to be precise)

[Ralf]

Okay, I agree that something like "isometric and similar" would be all right Without going too much into details.

If we go pedant mode then we have 0 isometric games on Zx Spectrum. Games like Knight Lore are "dimetric".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isometric ... e_graphics


True isometric drawing of a cube. Note the 120° angles separating the x, y and z axes, as well as the equal lengths of each of the cube's edges.


Common form of dimetric projection used in video games and pixel art. The angle 26.565° forms a 2:1 pixel ratio, and is equal to arctan ⁡ ( 0.5 ) {\displaystyle \arctan(0.5)} {\displaystyle \arctan(0.5)}.

[+3code]

Perhaps "Isometric and pseudo-isometric"?

[Einar Saukas]

I agree we shouldn't use the term "isometric" incorrectly. However I also agree that "isometric" is the word that everyone will be looking for, therefore it won't help anyone to replace it with another term that nobody will understand.

I propose a trade-off. We can rename this group to "Isometric/Parallel 3D Graphics" and add the following description:

"Programs featuring 3D graphics with parallel projection (such as isometric)."

This way, the description will be technically correct without removing the word "isometric".

You also need to consider games like Escape, Trashman, Android Two, TLL, Cyclone. They use a form of parallel projection (right-angled oblique projection), but are not included in the group

But these games use a form of parallel project that does not produce 3D graphics. This is the reason I explicitly wrote "3D graphics" in both group name and description.

My suggested definition for the group would therefore be:

"Programs that use a form of parallel projection with at least one diagonal axis. This includes all forms of axonometric projection (including isometric) and acute-angled oblique projection.'

I was aiming for a description that's technically correct, but that most people would understand. I'm afraid your suggestion fits the first requirement, but not the second.

I really don't think the description should be any more technical than what I wrote. Otherwise we will make it harder for most people to understand, instead of easier. Unless anyone thinks that what I wrote is wrong?

The group name could just be "Isometric and similar graphics".

That's too vague. I think it should be either "Isometric-like 3D Graphics" (perhaps easier to understand?) or "Isometric/Parallel 3D Graphics" (perhaps more accurate?)

[AndyC]

Is there any practical benefit to being enormously pedantic here? The games were generally referred to as isometric back in the day and typically still are to this day, even with modern releases.

Ultimately we're surely trying to catalogue useful information about the games rather than picking endlessly at terminology that is widely used here and elsewhere already. Or are we going to start having to point out that the 48K Spectrum doesn't technically have 48K RAM because SI Units favour 1K = 1000 bytes....

[Rorthron]

You also need to consider games like Escape, Trashman, Android Two, TLL, Cyclone. They use a form of parallel projection (right-angled oblique projection), but are not included in the group

But these games use a form of parallel project that does not produce 3D graphics. This is the reason I explicitly wrote "3D graphics" in both group name and description.

Actually, in my opinion they do use 3D graphics, just a different type. They represent objects in three dimensions, using a 3D projection technique.

My suggested definition for the group would therefore be:

"Programs that use a form of parallel projection with at least one diagonal axis. This includes all forms of axonometric projection (including isometric) and acute-angled oblique projection.'

I was aiming for a description that's technically correct, but that most people would understand. I'm afraid your suggestion fits the first requirement, but not the second.

I really don't think the description should be any more technical than what I wrote. Otherwise we will make it harder for most people to understand, instead of easier. Unless anyone thinks that what I wrote is wrong?

I agree it's technical, but this whole issue is technical. The problem is I think your definition is incorrect, as you are defining it to include forms of parallel projection that are not included in the category.

The group name could just be "Isometric and similar graphics".

That's too vague. I think it should be either "Isometric-like 3D Graphics" (perhaps easier to understand?) or "Isometric/Parallel 3D Graphics" (perhaps more accurate?)

I agree it's vague, and if there's a brief, accurate alternative, I would suggest using that, instead. However, "isometric-like" is no less vague than "isometric and similar". I think "Isometric/Parallel 3D Graphics" is worse. It's technically wrong (as well as a bit of a mouthful), and there is no point swapping one technically incorrect term for another incorrect term (which is also longer and less familiar). Personally I think just "isometric" is better than the last option.

[akeley]

To muddle the waters a little bit more, I consider isometric games to be 2.5D 3D games are Mercenary, Castle Master etc.

Anyway, I think we should really just stick to "isometric", with perhaps a side note to explain things. If you look at Wikipedia, or MobyGames, that's how it's done there.

[+3code]

Or are we going to start having to point out that the 48K Spectrum doesn't technically have 48K RAM because SI Units favour 1K = 1000 bytes....

Before: 48kilobytes. Now: 48kibibytes. But, well, 48k...

[Einar Saukas]

So why don't we make it even simpler? Let's call it either "Isometric 3D Graphics" or "Isometric-like 3D Graphics", without any description, just providing instead a link to this page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isometric ... e_graphics

Now it will be Wikipedia's responsibility to explain what we mean

[AndyC]

So why don't we make it even simpler? Let's call it either "Isometric 3D Graphics" or "Isometric-like 3D Graphics", without any description, just providing instead a link to this page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isometric ... e_graphics

Now it will be Wikipedia's responsibility to explain what we mean

Sounds like the best idea to me.

[4thRock]

Just "Isometric" graphics would be perfect.
Quotes are a simple way to indicate misused words and it avoids any confusion with 2D, 2.5D or 3D

[Stefan]

Is there any practical benefit to being enormously pedantic here? The games were generally referred to as isometric back in the day and typically still are to this day, even with modern releases.

Some of the games were sometimes referred to by some people who did not know what this 3D thing was that they were looking at as isometric because they had heard someone else call a 3D thing isometric. This does not make it isometric. To then promote this to "generally referred to as" is a large leap.

I was interested if "generally referred to as isometric" could be backed up by reviews of this oblique projection games and it's a bit of a mixed bag:

• All or Nothing (1984) | Crash: Isometric | YS: Isometric
• Ball Breaker (1987) | Crash: 3-D | SU: 3D | YS: 3-D isometric
• Orbix (1986) | SU: 3D | YS: 3D
• Pac-Mania (1988) | ACE: 3D perspective | C&VG: forced perspective 3D | Crash: isometric | SU: 3D | YS: 3D view
• Sophistry (1988) | ACE: isometric | Crash: 3-D | SU: pseudo 3-D view | YS: 3-D isometric

Ultimately we're surely trying to catalogue useful information about the games rather than picking endlessly at terminology that is widely used here and elsewhere already.

Yes, I was just surprised to see something that to me was incorrect. If you do not appreciate drawing styles then feel free to call them all isometric.

Or are we going to start having to point out that the 48K Spectrum doesn't technically have 48K RAM because SI Units favour 1K = 1000 bytes....

This is another generally referred to thing? 1kB is 1000 bytes, 1KB or 1K = 1024 bytes - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilobyte