Spectrum Computing

does Master of Magic count?

From what I remember Master of Magic doesn't have randomly generated levels, just a fixed map, so some people might argue it's not quite the same, but as far as I'm concerned it looks and feels enough to be a Rogue-style game, so possibly.

I recall when I first played Oracle's Cave I struggled a bit as I kept getting killed, but later I realised the benefit of picking your rooms and battles carefully, getting a bit stronger, and it became quite enjoyable. I think there was a time limit on the quests though, which ultimately could be a bigger issue to deal with.

I'm afraid that the two key factors - randomness and permadeath - are non negotiable.

Otherwise, there are countless old RPGs which could be classifed as roguelikes (eg Ultima) but aren't really.

akeley wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 8:21 pm I'm afraid that the two key factors - randomness and permadeath - are non negotiable.

Otherwise, there are countless old RPGs which could be classifed as roguelikes (eg Ultima) but aren't really.

Fair enough, if those are the aspects that defines a rogue-like then I guess games like MoM and Out of the Shadows (fixed map I think) aren't really rogue-likes.

By those definitions Oracle's Cave could be classed as one I think. I couldn't remember what happened if you 'finished' one of the quests on Oracle's Cave. I think you could move onto the next one, but I don't recall if your character retains their stats/items/possessions?

Morkin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:28 pm
Interestingly, compared to many of the earlier Rogue-likes - written on machines with lots more memory than our ZX - the Speccy attempts seem to have larger and more detailed graphics/sprites (e.g. 16x16 pixel). Personally, if I were attempting to write one (which I won't!) I'd be putting as many spare bytes towards getting as much variety of item types, monsters, combat etc. I'd be perfectly happy with 8x8 pixel UDG-style characters and character movement.

[mention]Morkin[/mention] I know you are a true fan (like me) from this comment.

variety of item types, monsters, combat is exactly what a RLs offer. And why so many so called spectrum RLs aren't RLs at all!

Many have 1!!! Potion. And it's a healing potion. And about 5 baddies in total. This is not rouge.

"You find a blue potion"
Drink potion.
"You are positioned"
"Jbizzel, level 1 warrior died"

Or

"The door is locked"
Open the door.
"It breaths on you. You died"

The original rouge game was something like 45k surely it could be made for the zx spectrum. Even if 128 only.

I want to try. But the amount of stuff in the game is daunting!

PS I'm not saying these other games aren't good. I'm just saying they are NOT rouge like.

UMoria is probably the game I have spent more time playing than any other. These games are insanely good if you are able to get past the impossible learning curve.

You are supposed to die, that is how you learn. But a game that tells you nothing, has no graphics, where every single key on the keyboard is a different action, and where you repeatedly die instantly, is off putting to most people.

Dark souls / Bloodborne are the heirs to the rouge like legacy. The game play is always risk management and the strategic use of death.

Just to add to this...

Playing Umoria with a high level, powerful character.

You have spent weeks keeping this guy alive. Leveling him up, de coding the secrets of the dungeon.

You get comfortable, feel invincible. You have a few jet out of jail tricks up your sleeve.

You get to a door, do I open it? You might find a named sword. Or all hell could break loose.

I suppose Umoria is 1meg, so maybe a game like that is too big.

But we are brain storming here

I thought about this quite a bit last night.

The questions I have are:

Is the monster AL for Rouge well described anywhere?

The starting point might be to build a database of the items within the game. Are these listed anywhere?

I have never played the original rouge, the game must be about 1/2 the size of Umoria, with half the stuff.

https://github.com/Davidslv/rogue

source code in c

z88dk?

Well, I used to play Pixel Dungeon. It is far from complex RL like Nethack oř Umoria but it still fits in genre.
One concept I'm not sure is food. It is used to stop player grinding on easy levels. Fact is, in some runs, you already know that you are dead simply because you did not get suitable weapon and armor in early levels and you take too much damage. You can mitigate increased damage by potions but that Is just prolongating unevitable agony. I prefer when player is killed by own mistake than by statistic.

My The Order of Mazes game https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/3 ... r_of_Mazes is loosely a Rogue-Like as the maze is procedurally generated each time you play with random loot locations etc...

TomD

What about the Warrior Mage? Granted it's a BASIC type-in, but it's a very good one IMO.

Also, does Maziacs count?

arjun wrote: ↑Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:24 pm Also, does Maziacs count?

IMHO it is kind of proto RL. Question is if there is enough RL elements to distinguish Maziacs as RL. It is always hard to find clear line.
There was discussion if Skool series is open world. Personally, I see metroidvania elements in Starquake. And yes, I see elements of RL in Maziacs.
For my own sanity, I think about these games as proto-XXXX. Proto-metroidvania, proto-open world, proto-RL. Clearly, they are heading towards specific genre but maybe (and that is very subjective thing) they are not there yet.

catmeows wrote: ↑Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:48 am Well, I used to play Pixel Dungeon. It is far from complex RL like Nethack oř Umoria but it still fits in genre.
One concept I'm not sure is food. It is used to stop player grinding on easy levels. Fact is, in some runs, you already know that you are dead simply because you did not get suitable weapon and armor in early levels and you take too much damage. You can mitigate increased damage by potions but that Is just prolongating unevitable agony. I prefer when player is killed by own mistake than by statistic.

This is another good point. Same issue with end of level bosses in so called rouge likes. They player needs to be able to select their own risk level. So they must never be forced in to some kind of end point. As you say, the player should be able to make their own preparations and decide when they are ready to 'go for it'

Jbizzel wrote: ↑Fri Mar 04, 2022 2:47 pmThey player needs to be able to select their own risk level. So they must never be forced in to some kind of end point. As you say, the player should be able to make their own preparations and decide when they are ready to 'go for it'

...I think it's probably a difficult (read: impossible!) task to get definitive agreement on what 'Roguelike' means, but this is quite an important element for me.

The idea that if you're finding things hard-going you can hang around in a place with mostly low-level enemies until you gain experience/strength/equipment and feel comfortable about trying to progress further.

...Though if you've experienced 'permadeath' (another potential 'roguelike' element) you normally have good reason to grind a bit...

I thought the same, so am having a go at writing one.

So far, the levels generate randomly and you can move around the dungeon, collect a key and exit to the next level. The levels get bigger as the game goes. So much more to add! Next on the list is the contents of crates and barrels.



Not really sure where I'm going with this, so would appreciate some ideas to make it fun. Monsters are clearly on the list.

Steve

the actual official Rouge port for the spectrum is very good from what Ive played.

I just don't get the 'mouse like' controls to ruin it!!

can the control scheme be changed, or hacked? Or dose is support an actual mouse?

I need a non-mouselike rougelike for the spectrum!

Isn't this one about as close as they get?
https://retrosouls.itch.io/tiny-dungeons



I don't think it's procedural generation though, which I'll admit is a major part of Rogue's appeal.

patters wrote: ↑Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:16 pm Isn't this one about as close as they get?
https://retrosouls.itch.io/tiny-dungeons

I don't think it's procedural generation though, which I'll admit is a major part of Rogue's appeal.

It's good, but it's not rouge

(Rouge by mastertronic is the best that I've found for the spectrum)

** Although the controls almost ruin it. Wonder if the game could be modded to make it work with decent keys?

Jbizzel wrote: ↑Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:55 pm It's good, but it's not rouge

(Rouge by mastertronic is the best that I've found for the spectrum)

can't find that on the db

Nitrowing wrote: ↑Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:45 pm can't find that on the db

Try searching for rogue instead of a typo'd rouge.

Whoops!

That looks good, will have to try.

It's well worth a look

The trs80 has a proper version of rogue. I guess the 32 character display hinders the spectrum?

Jbizzel wrote: ↑Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:34 pm The trs80 has a proper version of rogue. I guess the 32 character display hinders the spectrum?

Is the advantage of the TRS 80-column mode mainly to let the player see more of the map then? I guess the player would be less likely to be killed by missile fire from something off screen?

If you went for a status panel on the left for your stats, you'd be roughly looking at 20 x 20 playing grid I suppose, assuming you used 8x8 pixel squares.