Page 1 of 2

Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:19 pm
by R-Tape
It's going to be tight but I still hope to have something ready before the Speccy's birthday.

I'm working on this, and would like a bit of feedback regarding difficulty.

Image

Download.

This is one of the HARD levels, I'd be interested if you find it easy/medium/hard or impossible. The goal is to get both brothers to the red square. You may need to take advantage of the fact that you can jump on your brother's head ;)

Keys:

OP = Left/Right
Z = Jump
Space = Switch brother

Also - I'd like to do some translations, I can probably manage the basics myself but would like some help with the title. I'd like it to be catchy, it doesn't have to be a word for word replacement. So if you're a foreign johnny could you give some feedback/ideas for a title in your language.

For example in Russian I might try: боб брат, which sounds like "Bob Brat". It sounds cute to me, does it work for a Russian speaker?

What about the Italian "Fratello Fagioli"? It's alliterative, but is possibly too long so is not catchy.

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:34 pm
by RMartins
Maquiavelicly Nasty !!! :)

But doable.

The controls make me switch users, when I shouldn't.
I'm more used to use SPACE or M for fire/jump.

I would swap the SPACE and Z functions.

But on a ZX48 Keyboard, SPACE is not a good candidate for jump either (better use M instead), since it forces you to bend your thumb below the other fingers to get to it.

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:36 pm
by R-Tape
Quick work Rui!

The final version will have refinable keys and joystick options.

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:42 pm
by RMartins
R-Tape wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:36 pm Quick work Rui!

The final version will have refinable keys and joystick options.
Since one can "hide" one player on the right top, while bringing the other up to top left, it's doable, since you get only 2 baddies that matter.
If one had to control both brothers, while managing the 3 horizontal baddies at the same time, it would be a nightmare.

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:55 pm
by Joefish
Yes, I'd suggest for joystick control use FIRE for jump and DOWN to swap. Or even UP to pick one and DOWN for the other, since there are only two of them.

I found it very hard - mainly because there's nowhere safe on the left-hand side to leave one while you bring the other over.

With this sort of game I'd rather be trying to solve the logic of the puzzle using two characters, and have safe places to stand them whilst I think, than try and make two characters dodge baddies at the same time. If that's how the game is to play out, then I'd rather be able to control both characters simultaneously, with something like O/P/M for one and Q/W/X for the other. It might be challenging, but it doesn't strike me as fair on the player to force them to relinquish control of a character slap-bang in the path of a monster.

Maybe if you had to lock one character in between two doors, with a baddie descending from above, while the other character had to run from one touch-switch to another to let them out, then OK; then urgency is there but it doesn't detract from the sense of control. But having to leave a character somewhere they're exposed seems more like a failure of the control mechanism to me, rather than a challenge.

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:02 pm
by Joefish
Just managed to wreck things. I stood one guy on the small platforms on the right, with the other guy jumped up underneath him. This lifted the first one up and pushed him off the top of the screen, and he disappeared! Also, if I jump on the other guy at the start, I can push up through the solid blocks.

Also, if I'm carrying the other guy, I expect to be able to carry him left and right as I go. This would at least make some bits easier.

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:04 pm
by Joefish
It'd be neat if you could 'kill' a baddie by slamming a door on it...

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:53 pm
by R-Tape
RMartins wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:42 pm If one had to control both brothers, while managing the 3 horizontal baddies at the same time, it would be a nightmare.
Yep, I discovered quite quickly that without 'safe spaces' the game is not pleasant. I definitely want there to be some periods of frantic gameplay though.
Joefish wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:55 pm Yes, I'd suggest for joystick control use FIRE for jump and DOWN to swap. Or even UP to pick one and DOWN for the other, since there are only two of them.
Thanks, I'm not a joystick user - so I take it that using a key for 'switch' would be a no no?
With this sort of game I'd rather be trying to solve the logic of the puzzle using two characters, and have safe places to stand them whilst I think, than try and make two characters dodge baddies at the same time. If that's how the game is to play out, then I'd rather be able to control both characters simultaneously, with something like O/P/M for one and Q/W/X for the other. It might be challenging, but it doesn't strike me as fair on the player to force them to relinquish control of a character slap-bang in the path of a monster.
At the beginning I wasn't sure whether to make it more of an action or puzzle game. Once I got used to the control mechanism I enjoyed the action, so leaned heavily towards that. I'm not keen on controlling both players at once, that would just make it a 2 player game wouldn't it? Though I suppose it's different if I design the levels based on the premise of it being a two player game for one.
But having to leave a character somewhere they're exposed seems more like a failure of the control mechanism to me, rather than a challenge.
I don't agree on this one, this is the bit I like!
Just managed to wreck things. I stood one guy on the small platforms on the right, with the other guy jumped up underneath him. This lifted the first one up and pushed him off the top of the screen, and he disappeared! Also, if I jump on the other guy at the start, I can push up through the solid blocks.
Oof! That will need fixing, thanks.
Also, if I'm carrying the other guy, I expect to be able to carry him left and right as I go.
That *might* be really cool. I'll have to see if I can implement it - I'm getting concerned the AGD editor is getting too full and is going to collapse soon.

*edited*

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:48 pm
by MrPixel
there is a color clash when the brothers meld together

the jumps can barely clear the enemies

needs a shield powerup to block enemies

maybe some music

otherwise, it's good

and a double jump feature, the left most lever is too high

edit: i discovered a glitch

you can jump through the wall and the end door sometimes disappears

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:57 pm
by MatGubbins
Yup, doors crush the nasties, or at least trap them for a few seconds until they struggle free.
I don't know if I cheated by jumping on top of the other player and leaping through the red platform and then leaping up the platforms - I see that once the level has been completed it is possible to do a double high leap from the head of the other player by swapping at the highest point, tricky but doable.

I would like to see a version with both players on different joysticks/sides of the keyboard for a true 2 player game.

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:58 pm
by Ast A. Moore
R-Tape wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:19 pm Keys:

OP = Left/Right
Z = Jump
Space = Switch brother
Looks cute, but without redefinable controls—particularly with these defaults—I’m not even going to try it. ;)

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:26 pm
by Ralf
The sample level is hard but possible.

Completed it after about 30th attempt ;)

Definitely it would be not a good idea to have 3 lives in this game :D

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:37 pm
by hikoki
Good stuff. A platformer which requires brain and action.
Easy once you get used to controls. I would suggest OPNM (QWNM for lefties I guess) instead.
What about a type of baddies who speed up their march when they see you? another one who chases you down all the time so that you can play with doors to close him?

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:16 am
by hikoki
Also, if I'm carrying the other guy, I expect to be able to carry him left and right as I go.
IMHO this would spoil the game! to me the fun in this demo is leaving a bro "abandoned" while you move the other one. Having to switch betwen both makes you think and plan your moves! This would be spoiled if one could always carry each other. Also it's fun that you have to think how to move the bros as platforms, this would be spoiled as well.
Perhaps allow carrying each other Temporarily when getting powerups, leave jetpac power-ups so that one bro can fly on top of the other, bicycle power-ups, etc.. each bro having different abilities would add more brain+action possibilities and replayability.. leave power-ups and let the player think the best way.sometimes would require more brain than action or both depending on how power-uls are placed.

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:49 am
by R-Tape
MatGubbins wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:57 pm Yup, doors crush the nasties, or at least trap them for a few seconds until they struggle free.
I don't know if I cheated by jumping on top of the other player and leaping through the red platform and then leaping up the platforms - I see that once the level has been completed it is possible to do a double high leap from the head of the other player by swapping at the highest point, tricky but doable.
I wouldn't call that cheating, in other levels I made the red bricks double thick to stop it where it would spoil the puzzle.

Well spotted on the double double height leap. I wondered if it should have been included as part of the gameplay but decide it was too tricky for many to master. So as of now being able to jump off your brother's head midway through his leap is a curio.

Image

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:50 am
by R-Tape
Ralf wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:26 pm The sample level is hard but possible.

Completed it after about 30th attempt ;)

Definitely it would be not a good idea to have 3 lives in this game :D
Infy lives I think! I like the idea of logging number of attempts instead.

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:55 am
by R-Tape
hikoki wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:37 pm Good stuff. A platformer which requires brain and action.
Easy once you get used to controls. I would suggest OPNM (QWNM for lefties I guess) instead.
What about a type of baddies who speed up their march when they see you? another one who chases you down all the time so that you can play with doors to close him?
Thanks. These are good ideas, the trouble is that AGD is full - I'm already hacking it to get more features. I'm trying to decide whether to call my work in AGD the sandbox stage and now move on and code it myself.

There is a lot more I want to add here, and each addition really opens up the level design possibilities.

It seems the obvious choice but the risk is that I won't finish it...

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:00 am
by R-Tape
hikoki wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:16 am
Also, if I'm carrying the other guy, I expect to be able to carry him left and right as I go.
IMHO this would spoil the game! to me the fun in this demo is leaving a bro "abandoned" while you move the other one. Having to switch betwen both makes you think and plan your moves! This would be spoiled if one could always carry each other. Also it's fun that you have to think how to move the bros as platforms, this would be spoiled as well.
Perhaps allow carrying each other Temporarily when getting powerups, leave jetpac power-ups so that one bro can fly on top of the other, bicycle power-ups, etc.. each bro having different abilities would add more brain+action possibilities and replayability.. leave power-ups and let the player think the best way.sometimes would require more brain than action or both depending on how power-uls are placed.
I've thought about this some more and I think being able to carry your brother while your own movements are unhindered would spoil it. One possibility is that you can only do the vertical jump when coupled, so traversing platforms would not be possible, and make walking treacle slow.

I'm not sure about different abilities, I considered it originally and it's also been said to me privately. I definitely see why it's a good idea, but it means leaning further towards puzzle than I originally intended. I'm not ruling it out though. If I'm not careful I could end up remaking Multidude.

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:11 am
by R-Tape
A few people here and privately mentioned dropping the switching in favour of simultaneous movement, basically a two player game for one (?) I'm struggling with this idea and still think it's missing the point, the whole premise is concentrating on one brother but keeping the other in mind. I suppose the same goes for simultaneous control to a lesser extent.

I'm not even sure I like the idea, are there other games (any platform) that do this?

And the people that have made the suggestion are all very sensible people IMO, so perhaps it's me that's missing the point!

The more I think about this the more I want to do on it, I'm not sure this will be finished in a couple of weeks.

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:13 am
by hikoki
More puzzle than thoughful jumps? well all depends on abilities, enemies behaviour and level design..also power-ups could last few seconds to prevent gameplay from becoming too puzzle-like.

Slow walking would make the game more of a puzzle?

Double jumping is interesting. You may want to get it more automatic when bros are stacked. I dunno..by holding down jump key and perform double-jump when releasing?

About lack of memory, have you thought of using Alan Turvey's AGDX ? You may want to look at his youtube channel and AGD Facebook group where the latest version can be downloaded.

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:50 am
by R-Tape
hikoki wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:13 am Slow walking would make the game more of a puzzle?
I meant slow only when your brother is standing on your head. Just a possibility, I may not include carrying your brother horizontally at all.
About lack of memory, have you thought of using Alan Turvey's AGDX ? You may want to look at his youtube channel and AGD Facebook group where the latest version can be downloaded.
Never heard of it until now thanks, looks like it's password only Facebook though. If I'm to redo things I should probably move to doing it myself in assembly.

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:59 pm
by hikoki
Early AGDx plus demos here : https://highriser.itch.io
though the latest version is on Facebook. I think this version 3 is the latest one : https://www.dropbox.com/s/9yb7qhoukbt3gns/Agd_x3.rar
He's showing features from version 4 though I think it's not released yet.
You can import your game into AGDX : https://youtu.be/TKt6r7QZrso
and it's supposed to allow for more space apart from accepting other .bin goodies which are shared on dropbox by AlanT on his video descriptions. In general everything is explained on his videos: https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCzWzj4BD ... bjg/videos
One video which seems useful to save lots of memory is about how to import preshifted sprites after makig the game.

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:45 pm
by Joefish
I only suggested simultaneous control because you seemed to prefer a lot of tight action type problems. It's not as easy as you might expect to control two characters, but it'd be fun to play the game again as a 2-player co-op.
If this level was a little more generous in its 'safe spaces' then I wouldn't have mentioned it!

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:38 pm
by Kweepa
R-Tape wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:19 pm What about the Italian "Fratello Fagioli"? It's alliterative, but is possibly too long so is not catchy.
It would be I Fratelli Fagioli (the o is singular, the i is plural). I think it sounds good... but I'm no expert.

Re: Bean Brothers - playtesting and name help wanted

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:40 am
by hikoki
More suggestions: crumbling platforms (o even better dissappearing as soon as used), one bro can shoot, one bro can move platforms, one bro can create platforms from nowhere on every step, the abandoned bro gets shielded, one bro can move only horizontaly whilst the other vertically, one can only jump whilst the other one can only run