Demoscene programs

The place for codemasters or beginners to talk about programming any language for the Spectrum.
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Nomad
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Demoscene programs

Post by Nomad »

I saw some great demo programs for the spectrum, one thing that became clear is it seems to be a different approach to creating your run of the line program. If there are any good tutorials, articles, discussions about how to create these things figure it would be pretty nice to put them in the programming forum.

That said, its quite a vibrant part of the retro scene in Eastern Europe/Russia. Perhaps having a dedicated sub forum might encourage a resurgence in the west?

Like not everyone has the time to create a full spectrum program, but to create a short demo program. That is probably a lot more manageable (unless its showing some sort of technical wizardry). Little bit of hand holding might expand the scene in the west.. :lol:

Plus with it usually being a collaboration between a musical bod, programmer and art bod i figure its a nice way for someone who perhaps does not have a complete skill set to handle doing a full program to create something and get involved.

Perhaps I misunderstand the programs but they seem to be technical/design showcase often with some artificial constraint placed upon a subset (like only allowing 32 byte programs)

I forget the link (it was on my old bookmark list) but there were only a few discussion of the actual source)

The programming section here is rather lively and has lots of good input. I figure a demoscene discussion would be pretty great.

Here was a general tutorial (not spectrum specific)

https://github.com/psenough/teach_yours ... in_14_days

For 80x86 you have sizecoding for the tiny demos - I wish there was something like this for the spectrum.

http://www.sizecoding.org/wiki/Main_Page
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Re: Demoscene programs

Post by Ralf »

Demos are different. There are demos restricted to some size like 1 kB or 256 bytes but most of them were done without any size limits.

As you could already discover there are some well known demo effects like infinite bobs, plasma, magnifying glass, rotozoomer and so on. You can read more about them for example here:

http://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=7523&page=1

These effects have some common logic whether you make them on Spectrum, C64 or PC. The rest is implementation on specific platform and optimalization.

Feel free to ask questions. I'm not a real demoscener but know some stuff ;)
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Re: Demoscene programs

Post by Nomad »

I figured the 3d stuff would be a bit beyond me, but I would like to know how to write the dissolves and transitions that would come in really handy for doing the menus of my regular programs also.

There was one effect where the characters on the screen each rapidly scrolled to h32 ascii. That was another one I thought probably could work on a spectrum. I figure that would be a great way to transition between text menus.

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoGKh5X3nS4[/media]
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Re: Demoscene programs

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Overall I find it hard to take seriously as a standalone genre. It's an awkward artifical construct that can be best summed up as 'music videos of questionable artistic value produced with a$$-backwards methodology'. Its only potential unquestionable redeeming quality, that of showing the full capabilities of a computer platform, is by definition not something it is capable of due to the fact that the defining characteristic of a computer is interactivity - and including the latter only leaves you with a game with bad/rudimentary gameplay. It is a non-genre in that sense.

The excuse of 'executing in real time on computer platforms' is used in order to avoid categorization within, as well as a competition with, a wider range of music videos produced by professional music/graphics artists. Once again, there's plenty of specialized audio/video tools available for this exact purpose if we look at it from that perspective.

The practice of 'demo programming' is questionable as well. Mainstream categories impose little to no size limits, so as a general rule, you have most of the memory available for whatever you want to do. Any sort of lengthy unrolled loops, LUTs of 16 Kb and up, anything is go. Disk systems take it to a point where you can use the whole 128K extended memory for 1-2 'effects'. At the end of the day, when you realize how it's really done, the speed and whatnot (amount of stuff, etc) you're seeing becomes 'the absolute bare minimum' one can expect from it. It's not real programming in my opinion.

Nomad wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:10 am That said, its quite a vibrant part of the retro scene in Eastern Europe/Russia. Perhaps having a dedicated sub forum might encourage a resurgence in the west?

Last but not least, as someone who can read that language, I entirely wish that never happens on any of the 'english language' forums, in no way, shape or form. :)
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Re: Demoscene programs

Post by MonkZy »

I was a huge fan of the Amiga demoscene, in part it was what lead me astray from the Spectrum. Now I realise I have missed out on many very beautiful ZX Spectrum productions. I would love to see a collection of demo style routines.
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Re: Demoscene programs

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Overall I find it hard to take seriously as a standalone genre..
Demos may have different functions.

It may be just a programmer's fun - doing some effect than nobody did before or YOU never did before.

It may be a form of communications between people like letters - all these greetings from sceners to sceners in scrollers, demos as birthday gifts.

Or in case of better, bigger demos, it's a form of digital art. Yes, a form of art

See Weed demo for example. If it is not art then what is it?

[media]https://youtu.be/9POK5iazmyM[/media]
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Re: Demoscene programs

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Seeing computers as having to have interactivity is a pretty new idea.

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIwhx3NQSLg[/media]

One of the first practical uses for personal computers...

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FDigtF0dRQ[/media]

Both are non-interactive demos but they represent landmarks in programming.
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Re: Demoscene programs

Post by Hikaru »

[mention]Ralf[/mention] From my perspective, you're saying something to the effect of, 'People might want to try putting on their pants from the head (and not the usual way) for the following reasons: ...'

Art discussions is an initially doomed topic on the whole that I think is probably best avoided altogether. A good number of people use the term 'modern art' as a mild insult in their everyday lives for a reason. ;)

[mention]Nomad[/mention] I'm fairly sure this is also a kind of 'computer' under the hood:

Image

What's more, it is a very good and powerful kind of computer, that is capable of playing back 'demos' for a very good number of platforms in near-perfect quality.
Can you see the problem yet?
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Re: Demoscene programs

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I guess from practical perspective, for someone who wants to learn advanced techniques they can apply not only to demos but also to full programs - studying demoscene is a good way to get these skills quickly.

You see a demo with some technique you think is good, you can disassemble the code and figure out what is going on (in theory).

Because the programs are small they are better suited to study, especially if they were commented or had a discussion it is easier to understand. You also have a fully working program to look at compared to some dry example you might get in a book.

Now sure you can do the same with a full program but disassembling the whole codebase that is more difficult to find what your looking for without experience.

I don't see many full sized programs using these techniques, I always wondered why there was not so much of a cross over. With disk systems its possible to use a lot of these methods to make very nice visual and audio presentations. I would say look at cut scenes as a good example on how to use demoscene stuff in a regular game/application.

With the classification of worth as a art thing, not sure seems very subjective. Just like modern art. One man can love it another will hate it.

Doing demos on embedded devices/controllers is pretty cool.

Then again JBIT (Just Because It's There) is often a good reason to do something. :lol: a 16 byte paint app, tetris in a bootloader. Creating a tiny hello world program. They might all be useless but at the same time they have a sort of fascination for certain people. I find them beautiful examples of coding.

Same as the chess computers that can work on a few hundred bytes of ram. I respect the technical skill that went into the design of the thing.

I think demoscene is like religion you can't explain it to someone that does not get it already. The ones who like it like it from the start.

I would call this a marmite type deal, you either love it or hate it. :lol:
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Re: Demoscene programs

Post by Ralf »

Can you see the problem yet?
I'm not sure ;)

You suggest that demo for Zx Spectrum is not different in its nature than let's say a romantic comedy with Jennifer Aniston? ;)
Or to make thing even harder not different from a movie like Shrek which is 100 % computer animation.

All right, both are sound+visual presentations, I won't dispute.

Things that make a demo for me:

- it was created as a part of demoscene movement ;)
- it's more or less calculated real time

I agree, the second point is problematic. Many demos have precalculated parts and there are always fierce discussions when there is too much precalculations so demo stops being a demo.
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Re: Demoscene programs

Post by MonkZy »

I was not active in the demoscene, I was more a consumer. I always saw the demoscene as creativity. Not necesarily art, but creation definitely. So demos were always expressive. Some producers had swagger, my morphing pixel ball has more dots than yours, type of stuff. Some were artsy. They all had one thing in common, a need to create things on computers. And may that trait in human nature never cease.

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Re: Demoscene programs

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Ralf wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:04 pm
Can you see the problem yet?
Things that make a demo for me:

- it was created as a part of demoscene movement ;)
- it's more or less calculated real time

I agree, the second point is problematic. Many demos have precalculated parts and there are always fierce discussions when there is too much precalculations so demo stops being a demo.
I'd say the first point is just as problematic. Consider something like this. - I dunno just the first example I could think of. I can more or less imagine it working as a PC 'demo', given the glitchy specific kind of visuals with an appropriate song and all... However, the origin of these videos is in fact very different, and historically this is a country with little to no 'demoscene' presence.

If I had to put it bluntly, you'd probably be hard-pressed and/or grasping for straws to find 'dat elusive demoscene identity' thing. :)
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Re: Demoscene programs

Post by MonkZy »

Hikaru wrote:If I had to put it bluntly, you'd probably be hard-pressed and/or grasping for straws to find 'dat elusive demoscene identity' thing.
Most often you can identify demoscene stuff as stuff that was released as a demo, most often at a party or some such. As soon as I watched your posted video, I was thinking 'what hardeware/OS', so yes, some things might look 'demosceney'. Nobody is releasing finished video's as demos though (afaik). Not sure the scene would be into that. If it was a flash animation, you could slip it in I think.
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Re: Demoscene programs

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Ralf
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Re: Demoscene programs

Post by Ralf »

Consider something like this
Yes, very "demoscenish" in fact.

Just like this:
[media]https://youtu.be/rDBbaGCCIhk[/media]

(actually if I understand correctly it's something called "vapourwave", a new trendy word for 21 centrury guys mimicking 80s style ;) )
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Re: Demoscene programs

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Ralf wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:36 pm (actually if I understand correctly it's something called "vapourwave", a new trendy word for 21 centrury guys mimicking 80s style ;) )
Yeah, it's a number of closely related audio/visual styles. My impression of it is that, rather than simply mimicking, it's more about remembering and recreating the 'dreams from yesterday' - not without a good share of irony, but still with fondness. The kind of future that never happened. (:

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgEGqK9wl44[/media]
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Re: Demoscene programs

Post by Nomad »

For me the vaporwave stuff just reminds me of citypop :lol: Not that its a bad thing just I remember the original.

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOL1GaKCjqk[/media]

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2hhI9UgBOc[/media]
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Re: Demoscene programs

Post by Ralf »

For me the vaporwave stuff just reminds me of citypop. Not that its a bad thing just I remember the original.
Yes, feels a bit similar.

Vaporvawe as I understand it doesn't try to be original. It brings stuff that became a bit forgotten, remixes it and pimps it up a little bit.

Like this remix of old Pepsi commercials:
[media]
https://youtu.be/OrR1TGQY20Y[/media]
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Re: Demoscene programs

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I could drink a Dr Pepper right now...
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Re: Demoscene programs

Post by AndyC »

If you look at demos merely as a product of their output, then yes they'll seem pointless. Some of the appeal ultimately comes from understanding the limitations of a system and appreciating the skill in finding ways around that. Being able to do so whilst conveying an artistic concept makes something worth watching through.
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Re: Demoscene programs

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I guess its the effect it has on certain people, I would bet money that this is not just myself.

Sure there must be some programmers that are such good artists/musicians/coders that every demo looks easy but I think they are a tiny minority. :lol:

The majority of people could benefit from watching and thinking about the techniques behind the demos. Undoubtedly it would lead to improvements in their own skill.

I think a good demo not only entertains but it causes a person to question what they thought was possible on the target system.
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