The Hobbit 128 unfinished?

[Rorthron]

You forgot to comment the "(not done by Beam)" part.

No, I didn't:

There is no requirement to mention Beam, only one to say it is by another party ("it's clear that this is a later revision made by you guys"), which it does on the title page ("128K conversion by WorldofSpectrum.org"). (If it's by World of Spectrum, it's not by Beam.)

To expand on the point, it is clear that this post is not by you, because of my name Rorthron at the top. I don't need to add the specific words "not Einar" any more than I need to say "not Marilyn Monroe".

[Einar Saukas]

Therefore if original "The Hobbit" is by Melbourne House, it shows the Melbourne House logo, it explicitly says "Melbourne House" in the inlay, it never mentions Beam anywhere, then it's clearly not by Beam.

If it's by Melbourne House, it's not by Beam.

The original "The Hobbit" doesn't need to add the specific words "not by Beam" any more than it needs to say "not by Marilyn Monroe".

It makes me wonder why Veronika mentioned Beam? What an odd request from her...

[Rorthron]

Therefore if original "The Hobbit" is by Melbourne House, it shows the Melbourne House logo, it explicitly says "Melbourne House" in the inlay, it never mentions Beam anywhere, then it's clearly not by Beam.

If it's by Melbourne House, it's not by Beam.

The original "The Hobbit" doesn't need to add the specific words "not by Beam" any more than it needs to say "not by Marilyn Monroe".

Are you saying, therefore, I'm Marilyn Monroe? If not, I am not sure where this sort of sophistry gets you. (Incidentally Beam Software is credited in the inlay.)

It says in black and white on Kayamon's game "128K conversion by WorldofSpectrum.org". This makes it quite clear that "this is a later revision made by [us] guys (not done by Beam)".

Is your argument for not including Kayamon's release really that the title page says "128K conversion by WorldofSpectrum.org", rather than "128K conversion by WorldofSpectrum.org (not Beam software)", even though Veronika Megler's requirements were vaguely expressed and do not actually specify the wording? If so, that's exceptionally thin. It starts to look as though this is all a pretext to exclude Kayamon's version because of your personal dislike of it.

It makes me wonder why Veronika mentioned Beam? What an odd request from her...

She mentions it to clarify what she means by "you guys".

As an aside, I know this is a subject which you have got upset about before, but I'd appreciate it if you kept this polite and factual and did not resort to sarcasm and patronage.

[Einar Saukas]

(Incidentally Beam Software is credited in the inlay.)

Only in the Sinclair re-release. Even so, it's really really hard to notice.

It says in black and white on Kayamon's game "128K conversion by WorldofSpectrum.org". This makes it quite clear that "this is a later revision made by [us] guys (not done by Beam)".

Is your argument for not including Kayamon's release really that the title page says "128K conversion by WorldofSpectrum.org", rather than "128K conversion by WorldofSpectrum.org (not Beam software)", even though Veronika Megler's requirements were vaguely expressed and do not actually specify the wording?

My interpretation of your argument is something like: "She asked to make it clear this is not made by Beam. But since she didn't specify how to do it, we can argue that not saying it (therefore not mentioning Beam) is enough".

To me, it sounds like trying to make arguments to "work around" her requests, instead of trying to follow her requests faithfully.

As an aside, I know this is a subject which you have got upset about before, but I'd appreciate it if you kept this polite and factual and did not resort to sarcasm and patronage.

I was just trying to apply your own words, to exactly the subject we are discussing, because I thought it made my point self-evident. If it sounded like patronage then my sincere apologies, it really wasn't my intent.

OK, let's do this: Please give me some time to reflect on this. I will reconsider the possibility that I may not be impartial here, double check with the ZXDB support team, then get back to this discussion. Deal?

[Rorthron]

Only in the Sinclair re-release. Even so, it's really really hard to notice.

No. It's in the Melbourne House original. Not that this line of argument really makes a difference one way or another.

To me, it sounds like trying to make arguments to "work around" her requests, instead of trying to follow her requests faithfully.

Not at all. It seems to me you are selectively applying an unreasonable interpretation to her words. You assume that her parenthetic mention of "not done by Beam" imposes a strict wording requirement, but this is nowhere said and is very much at odds with the loose and casual language used throughout. Moreover, you do not apply the same strictness consistently. If you were to do that, the only wording that would be acceptable would be "128K conversion by you guys (not done by Beam)". You don't require exact replication of her words "by you guys", so it seems arbitrary then to require it of "(not done by Beam)" (especially as the latter is in parenthesis and so to be presumed to be of lesser importance).

I was just trying to apply your own words, to exactly the subject we are discussing, because I thought it made my point self-evident. If it sounded like patronage then my sincere apologies, it really wasn't my intent.

Apology accepted.

[Kweepa]

It's probably a bad idea to wade in here, but my thought as someone who contributed one ropey image are that this shouldn't have been released without at least Einar's blessing (and it would have been nice to ask the contributors too).
It was Einar's concept and he organized getting the images together. You don't know the motivations of the contributors - perhaps they only participated because they wanted to help Einar out...
It really doesn't matter whether it's "legal" or not to release it.

[1024MAK]

It's probably a bad idea to wade in here, but my thought as someone who contributed one ropey image are that this shouldn't have been released without at least Einar's blessing (and it would have been nice to ask the contributors too).
It was Einar's concept and he organized getting the images together. You don't know the motivations of the contributors - perhaps they only participated because they wanted to help Einar out...
It really doesn't matter whether it's "legal" or not to release it.

Careful there. What you are saying very much depends on there being a firm arrangement and agreement among the people involved. Was there a formal or informal agreement?

Mark

[Kweepa]

Of course not. Like I said, it doesn't matter whether it's legal or not.
This is a community and people should respect each other.

[1024MAK]

Of course not. Like I said, it doesn't matter whether it's legal or not.
This is a community and people should respect each other.

I’m not saying people should not respect each other. Of course they should. But without an agreement or some other understanding, it’s possible that different views will result, some of which may cause friction.

And I never mentioned legal matters.

Mark

[Kweepa]

There was a pretty clear (to me, as a contributor) implied understanding that Einar was making this upgrade and that my contribution would be used by Einar in his upgrade.
I never even heard about the release, or the people releasing it, so there was no agreement/understanding there.

I think it's pretty clear that swooping in and taking work from a work-in-progress thread without some discussion is not cricket. If you disagree then I don't know what to say. But like I said, it was probably a bad idea for me to wade in, so that's my final word on it.

[Ivanzx]

That's not correct. He credited it to World of Spectrum, not himself.

But why he appears to be the only author in the Spectrum Show video then? Also in another video appears: conversion by Kayamon and members of WoS:

If this was a community effort, maybe no names should be in front of others

[Pegaz]

But why he appears to be the only author in the Spectrum Show video then? Also in another video appears: conversion by Kayamon and members of WoS:

If this was a community effort, maybe no names should be in front of others

The only issue here is, whether the version compiled by Kayamon can co-exist on this site with the almost identical version compiled by Einar a little later and marked as BETA.
From everything I've seen and understood so far, there are no obstacles to that.
Kayamon is not the author, you won't find his name anywhere in the game, that's the only thing that matters, actually it nicely says "128K conversion by worldofspectrum.org" with the names of the original authors at the bottom.
Everyone can write what they want and how they see the whole situation.
If this is the Kayamon YT channel, which I doubt, then you're right, otherwise it's just throwing dust in the eyes...

[Rorthron]

But why he appears to be the only author in the Spectrum Show video then? Also in another video appears: conversion by Kayamon and members of WoS:

If this was a community effort, maybe no names should be in front of others

Is this a joke? The video you share does not even mention Kayamon. It shows the game only credited to WorldofSpectrum.org.

Even if there is some YouTuber out there who gets it wrong, it seems quite unreasonable to blame Kayamon for it when he clearly credited only WorldofSpectrum.org, not himself.

And none of this changes the discussion about the criteria for inclusion in the archive.

[Ivanzx]

Is this a joke? The video you share does not even mention Kayamon. It shows the game only credited to WorldofSpectrum.org.

Even if there is some YouTuber out there who gets it wrong, it seems quite unreasonable to blame Kayamon for it when he clearly credited only WorldofSpectrum.org, not himself.

And none of this changes the discussion about the criteria for inclusion in the archive.

A joke? Please, read first the description before saying this kind of things.

"Conversion by Kayamon and members of the World of Spectrum Forums."

My concern is clear, don´t know why you keep denying, but there seems to be a trend in several places where Kayamon is credited as the main person behind the project, and since it is a community effort, sounds a bit wrong.

[Rorthron]

A joke? Please, read first the description before saying this kind of things.

If you have a point to make about the description of a YouTube video, please include or at least make mention of the description in your post, rather than link to an embedded video in which the description does not appear.

My concern is clear, don´t know why you keep denying

Your concern is not at all clear, as you offered no evidence for your view in your first two posts, and your last comment offers only the flimsiest of support: some YouTuber said "Kayamon and World ofSpectrum.org" (which seems actually to be entirely correct).

I keep "denying" only insofar as you provide no evidence for your accusations. If you have any meaningful evidence, I'll happily agree with you.

there seems to be a trend in several places where Kayamon is credited as the main person behind the project, and since it is a community effort, sounds a bit wrong.

What trend? Where? And is there any evidence Kayamon is responsible for it?

If you're going to accuse someone of unreasonable behaviour, you really should have something to back it up.

And this still doesn't change the discussion of archive inclusion.

[Ivanzx]

If you have a point to make about the description of a YouTube video, please include or at least make mention of the description in your post, rather than link to an embedded video in which the description does not appear.

Seriously? I am out of this discussion, I am not even going to play the game, so why bother

[Rorthron]

Seriously?

Yes, seriously. You criticise me because I didn't work out the point you were trying to make wasn't actually made in your post, and you expected me to click on the link, navigate away from the embedded video to the YouTube site, go to the description and click "more" to expand the text to make the point for you.

I am out of this discussion, I am not even going to play the game, so why bother

So still no evidence to back up your accusations.

I don't know Kayamon and if he did something wrong, I'll willingly acknowledge it. But you keep making accusations you cannot justify, and that seems to me quite wrong.

And whether or not you or I approve of this version does not alter whether it should be included in the archive.

[jpnz]

Question for @Rorthron did you contribute anything for this project?

[Rorthron]

Question for @Rorthron did you contribute anything for this project?

Yes, though I personally would not attach great value to my contributions.

Why does that matter?

[jpnz]

Yes, though I personally would not attach great value to my contributions.

Why does that matter?

I'm trying to understand why this thread is getting bent out of shape ?!

[Pegaz]

Since the thread has been reopened, can this be resolved by making both versions available on the site ?
Everyone should stick to their own version of the story, but let Spectrum fans have a choice and decide what to use.
Thanks.

[R-Tape]

Since the thread has been reopened

By the way - apologies - due to a lost email I didn't realise that I could have unlocked the thread last Wednesday. My bad.

[hikoki]

Hey thanks to Einar and everyone related with this community based project. I remember having fun with this kind of meditation exersise for me by colorising some of the in-game artwork. It felt like a painter

[Jbizzel]

Yes, echo previous comment.

This was an awesome community project, I followed closely, even though I've never played the original game.

It was a great project that got me back into the spectrum scene.

Big thanks to all involved in it - big or small!

[Einar Saukas]

OK, the other file is now available too:

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/3 ... Hobbit_128