Due to unusually high levels of website traffic you will be presenting with regular Cloudflare checks for the time being.

When Level 1 isn't the best level...

General software. From trouble with the Banyan Tree to OCP Art Studio, post any general software chat here. Could include game challenges...
User avatar
PeteProdge
Bugaboo
Posts: 3662
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:03 am

When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by PeteProdge »

Now, in theory, level 1 is always the best level. It's the one EVERY PLAYER will see of course, so you make it look pretty damned good. Especially if you're making a coin-op game for the arcades. That level 1 is an effective 'attract mode'. You make it so that the new player wants to stick some more coins in to progress. It's got to be inviting, visually impressive and also - crucially - 'teaching' you the game in a short space of time.

Later levels? Meh. Less effort goes into those, understandably.

However, there are occasions when later levels outdo the first level.

And here's a list I've come up with where... nah, sorry, none come to mind right now, but I'll wait for your replies and I'll say "yeah, I meant that one too". ;)
Reheated Pixels - a combination of retrogaming, comedy and factual musing, is here!
New video: Nine ZX Spectrum magazine controversies - How Crash, Your Sinclair and Sinclair User managed to offend the world!
AndyC
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1448
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:12 am

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by AndyC »

R-Type. Surely Level 3, where the entire level is a massive boss fight, has to count?
User avatar
Wizwords
Microbot
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue May 23, 2023 9:02 am

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by Wizwords »

Not strictly the worst level, but I often wondered why Dinamic made the first level of Navy Moves so terribly tough that most gamers gave up and never experienced the (easier) later sections
Buy my book, ZX Nightmares, here: https://fusionretrobooks.com/collection ... 8102529118
Subscribe to On The ZX Spectrum here: https://onthezxspectrum.eo.page/onthezxspectrum
User avatar
Joefish
Rick Dangerous
Posts: 2080
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:26 am

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by Joefish »

R-Type is well-paced in that the first level has some great set-pieces. The ring of gun turrets that you can destroy in a chain reaction, and the most memorable boss of all. Level 2 goes full-on with the organic style of graphics and introduces the ground-tacking weapon. Though it's a bit samey all the way along. Level 3 really changes the game around with one giant ship being the level, but it would never have worked as the first stage if you weren't familiar with the controls. And Level 4 throws up a completely new style of play as you have to shoot and bludgeon your way through the ever-changing blockages. But after that, it's a bit rubbish really. There's nothing new to see at all, it just gets stupidly hard. And that's starting with the Level 4 boss. You really start to get sick of bosses that occupy so much of the screen you have nowhere to move. Which is why I don't think 3 is the best, though it is pretty original.
User avatar
Morkin
Bugaboo
Posts: 3302
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:50 am
Location: Bristol, UK

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by Morkin »

The first stage of Target Renegade is faintly OK because when you start the game it's the time you can use pretty much all your fighting moves.

But it's too long and gets boring after a while - it's just repeat floors of going back and forth doing the same thing. And the motorbikes don't make an appearance on later levels so the skill learnt with the timing of your flying kicks isn't needed again.

Stage 2 (Streets) is OK but a bit easy, basically just a chance to rack up your score (which contributes to extra lives)
Stage 3 (Park) is the first major challenge as your enemies are a bit tougher, and it has the tomahawk :dance
Stage 4 (Mall) is arguably the hardest level (and it has the dogs jumping around) - you need to perfect your back kicks for this one
Stage 5 (Pub) is probably my favourite. Just because it's a pub. Two stages, but if you CBA you can just swing at everyone with a pool cue, which is extremely satisfying
My Speccy site: thirdharmoniser.com
User avatar
Oloturia
Manic Miner
Posts: 494
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:11 pm

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by Oloturia »

Space Quest, never managed to pass those barriers on 1st level. After that it (maybe) becomes a funnier Pheenix clone.

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/4 ... pace_Quest
worcestersource
Manic Miner
Posts: 562
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:05 pm

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by worcestersource »

There was a point in Midnight Resistance, later in the game, where some storyline kicks in that felt a bit special. I recall the music being a bit sad.

Not sure about the level, though.

I always thought Boulder Dash got the accessibility right, beaming in at any nth level and of a different variation too.
User avatar
stupidget
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1655
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:09 pm
Location: Sunny Wolverhampton

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by stupidget »

I'd say Jason's Gem is very much guilty of a tough first level, and I'd imagine most players never go through to the platform part of the game. The fact that there was potential permadeath in the first level didn't help. Nice interview here with the author Simon White:

http://www.wizwords.net/jasons-gem/
User avatar
bluespikey
Manic Miner
Posts: 984
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:54 pm

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by bluespikey »

Dare I say Airwolf?

Raid Over Moscow had that horrible skiddy aircraft hangar before you got to shoot anything.
User avatar
p13z
Manic Miner
Posts: 614
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:41 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by p13z »

Horace and the Spiders.
Those first two levels were really pants, just getting in the way of the Panic bit that you actually want to play.
catmeows
Manic Miner
Posts: 720
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 12:02 pm
Location: Prague

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by catmeows »

IMHO Myth starts with good Hell level, continues with fantastic Greek level and continues with good Scandinavia level. Final level, Egypt somehow departs from gameplay being more cryptic and is probably worst level in game.
Proud owner of Didaktik M
User avatar
5MinuteRetro
Manic Miner
Posts: 774
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:21 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by 5MinuteRetro »

Not sure I really buy into the premise — plenty of games have later levels better than the first — but one that immediately sprang to mind is Mr Wimpy.

The second level onwards was a decent-enough Burger Time clone but to get to that you had to endure a god-awful
Pssst-meets-Frogger ingredients collect-‘em-up thing. Bizarre and frustrating, then and now, IMHO.

Retro stuff, real quick
YouTube: http://bit.ly/5MinuteRetro
Twitter: https://twitter.com/5MinuteRetro
User avatar
PeteProdge
Bugaboo
Posts: 3662
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:03 am

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by PeteProdge »

5MinuteRetro wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:56 pm ...Mr Wimpy. The second level onwards was a decent-enough Burger Time clone but to get to that you had to endure a god-awful
Pssst-meets-Frogger ingredients collect-‘em-up thing. Bizarre and frustrating, then and now, IMHO.
Data East lawyer: "Right, time to check out this Brit game and ensure it's not a Burger Time rip-off, or I'll file a lawsuit immediately to these Manchester-based chancers!"

*plays 40 seconds of the game*

Data East lawyer: "Ugh, that was truly terrible stuff, but it's not a Burger Time knock-off. That's today's work done."
Reheated Pixels - a combination of retrogaming, comedy and factual musing, is here!
New video: Nine ZX Spectrum magazine controversies - How Crash, Your Sinclair and Sinclair User managed to offend the world!
User avatar
5MinuteRetro
Manic Miner
Posts: 774
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:21 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by 5MinuteRetro »

PeteProdge wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 3:06 pm Data East lawyer: "Right, time to check out this Brit game and ensure it's not a Burger Time rip-off, or I'll file a lawsuit immediately to these Manchester-based chancers!"

*plays 40 seconds of the game*

Data East lawyer: "Ugh, that was truly terrible stuff, but it's not a Burger Time knock-off. That's today's work done."
Lol -- probably bang on. Mind you, the game itself is, of course, licensed by/from Wimpy. Perhaps Ocean worked the same Jedi mind tricks on that corporation's lawyers!
Retro stuff, real quick
YouTube: http://bit.ly/5MinuteRetro
Twitter: https://twitter.com/5MinuteRetro
User avatar
Lee Bee
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:01 pm
Location: Devon, England
Contact:

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by Lee Bee »

This principle is definitely true of music. Level 1 ALWAYS has the best tune!
User avatar
Juan F. Ramirez
Bugaboo
Posts: 5154
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:55 am
Location: Málaga, Spain

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by Juan F. Ramirez »

bluespikey wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:36 pm Raid Over Moscow had that horrible skiddy aircraft hangar before you got to shoot anything.
I'd also add Beach Head, the further you go, the cooler level
User avatar
blucey
Manic Miner
Posts: 885
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:46 am

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by blucey »

Combat School I guess.

The shooting levels are way better than the rubbish waggler first level.

That said, the last two levels are some of the very worst on the Speccy.
User avatar
Juan F. Ramirez
Bugaboo
Posts: 5154
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:55 am
Location: Málaga, Spain

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by Juan F. Ramirez »

Horace Goes Skiing
Eskimo Eddie
User avatar
spider
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1106
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 10:59 am
Location: Derby, UK
Contact:

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by spider »

One thing related, the first level should never be too difficult either (As well as said, looking 'nice') otherwise it can be a serious turn off :)

I'll concur with Beach Head as posted above too, except perhaps the horizontal 'tank' level, I think its just the jumpy scrolling that I did not like.
User avatar
Morkin
Bugaboo
Posts: 3302
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:50 am
Location: Bristol, UK

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by Morkin »

p13z wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:44 pm Horace and the Spiders.
Juan F. Ramirez wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 10:16 am Horace Goes Skiing
I was wondering when these would appear. The first two levels of Horace and the Spiders is basically just jump button timing. The only plus is that it probably takes <60 seconds to do both screens.

I can never decide which part of Horace Goes Skiing is more fun, it's a close one for me. I quite like the Frogger part, but I think the Skiing level takes it.

No mention of Manic Miner so far? I never liked Central Cavern much for a first level. Despite only having one nasty, the annoying spiky bush and stalactite positioning at the top makes the level a bit repetitive until you get your jumps right. Compared with some of the imaginative later levels like the Kong beast ones, it's a bit dull.

But then you can also argue that the first level forces you to learn most of the mechanics (conveyers, quicksand), which sets you up for the rest of the game.
My Speccy site: thirdharmoniser.com
User avatar
Lee Bee
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:01 pm
Location: Devon, England
Contact:

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by Lee Bee »

I nominate The Flintstones.

Wanna drive the Flintstones car down the street at high speed? (Level 2)
Image

Wanna go out on the town with Barney and enjoy a fun game of bowling? (Level 3)
Image

Or how about playing an actual platform game that's everything you'd imagine a Flintstones game would be? (Level 4)
Image

Nope. You can't do any of that fun stuff until you've spent what feels like an eternity painting the living room wall because your nagging wife says so. (Level 1)
Image Image

Now to be fair, I really do love the cosy little domestic setting. It's cute. And painting the wall is (in theory) quite satisfying. Plus the whole level shouldn't take much more than 5 minutes, which is how long you get to do it.

The problem is that painting is no joy at all. The controls are incredibly clunky and frustrating and you can't just paint anywhere you want, you need to constantly move ladders around to reach different places. The 5-minute time limit is actually quite merciless and the game is really unforgiving - when the time's up you inevitably find there's a few pixels of blank wall you've missed somewhere, which isn't good enough, meaning you have to keep starting from scratch over and over again, watching as all your hard painting work disappears!

So what's meant to be a fun little level ends up feeling like a never-ending chore, one which I rarely got past. This is all made even more depressing by the fact that you're under the thumb of your bitch wife who bosses Fred around and demeans him with remarks like "Pebbles can paint better"!

If I'd made this game, Fred's interactions with Wilma would be quite different. Level 1 would be far more satisfying and Fred would leave his house knowing he was the man! :D
Last edited by Lee Bee on Wed May 24, 2023 1:09 pm, edited 14 times in total.
User avatar
Vampyre
Manic Miner
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:51 pm
Contact:

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by Vampyre »

bluespikey wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:36 pm Raid Over Moscow had that horrible skiddy aircraft hangar before you got to shoot anything.
That's a good example - overly finicky to get spot on.

Another one would be the first level of Death Star Interceptor - trying to aim the X-Wing at a spot about 5 pixels wide.
ZX Spectrum Reviews REST API: http://zxspectrumreviews.co.uk/
catmeows
Manic Miner
Posts: 720
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 12:02 pm
Location: Prague

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by catmeows »

Also, I don't remember name of the game, it was an adventure but the very first thing you had to do was to solve 15 slide puzzle on time.
Proud owner of Didaktik M
User avatar
Joefish
Rick Dangerous
Posts: 2080
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:26 am

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by Joefish »

stupidget wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:01 pm I'd say Jason's Gem is very much guilty of a tough first level, and I'd imagine most players never go through to the platform part of the game. The fact that there was potential permadeath in the first level didn't help. Nice interview here with the author Simon White:
http://www.wizwords.net/jasons-gem/
I really like Jason' Gem, though it should probably top you back up to four lives when you complete the first stage (if not the second as well)!

I did once think it might be fun to design a bigger adventure-themed game as a sequel to it - something more like Metroid, but stuffed full of references to the original game, like NPCs based on the (let's be honest, bit rubbish) sprites from the platform section. But I've forgotten most of the plans... :lol:
User avatar
Vampyre
Manic Miner
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:51 pm
Contact:

Re: When Level 1 isn't the best level...

Post by Vampyre »

Lee Bee wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 12:22 pm So what's meant to be a fun little level ends up feeling like a never-ending chore, one which I rarely got past. This is all made even more depressing by the fact that you're under the thumb of your bitch wife who bosses Fred around and demeans him with remarks like "Pebbles can paint better"!

If I'd made this game, Fred's interactions with Wilma would be quite different. Level 1 would be far more satisfying and Fred would leave his house knowing he was the man! :D
Replace Andy Capp with Fred Flintstone :lol:

ZX Spectrum Reviews REST API: http://zxspectrumreviews.co.uk/
Post Reply