Why did you NOT upgrade to a CPC in the 80s?

[AndyC]

besides blockiness, the CPC palette looks horrible in some games because of too much difference in brightness levels

I think that's a weird argument, considering the Speccy palette. Although I'd say again that judging the graphics by looking at pin sharp modern LCD displays does them a disservice. An old school CTM monitor is a lot more forgiving and blends the colours somewhat which helps.

Although why some programmers insisted on making fonts with stripey colours I'll never entirely understand.

[equinox]

Although why some programmers insisted on making fonts with stripey colours I'll never entirely understand.

Possibly "because we can".
Why do women go to Ascot race-course covered in feathers?

[1024MAK]

The world’s gone mad!

I had to double check that I was not on WoSf where most discussions are chit-chat…

Mind, a chit-chat topic over there is actually talking about “retro” computers at the moment… Will wonders never cease?

[Lee Bee]

the CPC palette looks horrible in some games because of too much difference in brightness levels

i mean, look at this:

my eyes are bleeding!!

I think that's a weird argument, considering the Speccy palette.

I too am struggling to understand this argument, though I'm interested to know what you mean, @Lethargeek. Could you be more specific?

I myself am not a fan of dark, shadowy, muddy colours that aren't too distinct from black. But I'm not really seeing that with the Amstrad's range of brightness levels. I'd say they look quite useful.

[Timmy]

Gah, why would you say this and then not name the country?

Sorry about that, I've been a bit tired lately to answer earlier. I thought for this question it was more like that everyone outside the UK, France, and Germany will have heard very little about the CPC, so I didn't bother to talk about the my country in specific.

If it helps, everyone else already explained where I live already. Thanks everyone!

[1024MAK]

The Amstrad CPC computers were available in

• UK
• Australia
• Denmark
• France
• Greece
• Spain
• USA

Originally under the Schneider name:

• Austria
• Germany
• Switzerland

Lists are not intended to be exhaustive.

[Alessandro]

Italy as well, although they were very rare, coming well behind the C64, Spectrum and MSX.

Software for them was harder to find than the philosopher's stone here.

[XTM]

I thought for this question it was more like that everyone outside the UK, France, and Germany will have heard very little about the CPC.

Hold on, I know for a fact the CPC was very popular in Spain. Undoubtedly way more popular than in Germany. Though I don't know what the share was. I'd assume a split 50/50 CPC/Speccy, but I have no idea. Obviously the CPC boys say CPC was No. 1 in Spain. Maybe we can get some Spanish input on this.

Also, I can't help the impression that PeterJ doesn't particularly like to see this thread going on (despite many forum members seemingly enjoying it), maybe because of the possibility it could attract CPC users who might register to argue? I don't mean reasonable ones like AndyC of course, whose input is always great.

[PeterJ]

Please use the mention system @XTM. It's there to make things easier for everyone.

It was just the case (IMHO) that the thread seemed to be repeating itself and these sorts of threads can obviously cause flame wars (not sure if that's the right phrase), but it's starting a thread that you know will potentially get people's backs up. We all had these discussions (assuming you are old enough) at school. I really enjoy some of the comparative threads. I've even started some in the past.

You are putting this on a Spectrum site, so obviously it's going to be pretty much one sided. It's like me putting a post about my love of steak on a vegan website, and saying they should all eat beef.

If there is fresh stuff to add, then of course continue! I had no intention to stop the imparting of new information or views.

I read your post on WoS, and the Amstrad was always number three in this country. Whatever our French friend thinks (which is of course fine), nothing is going to change that. It's just the way it was. The reasons have been put multiple times, earlier in the thread. I play Amstrad and C64 games through the wonders of Emulation. As @AndyC so expertly said, all machines had their excellent and not so excellent features (not quoted exactly), but we can enjoy them all now through emulation.

[XTM]

Cheers @PeterJ!

Yep, this kind of thread is very likely to repeat itself if asked on a "biased" site where you have a majority opinion. My intention was never to cause possible flame wars - if so, I'd have an account on the cpcwiki forums (I don't) and have created the thread there. My motivation came from seeing "our friend" going out of his way to post negative comments on dozens of videos showing games for a system he doesn't have any interest in (this guy certainly won't enjoy it through emulation), and wording these comments in a fashion that aims to invalidate all the experiences and nostalgy users of said system had with it by calling them blind and other colourful words.

Sure, you could say I shouldn't take his bait. I just felt I couldn't leave this uncommented, but I did not want to wage a war in the YouTube comments section either. Which is why I put up the "arguments" brought forth by him for discussion on our home turf, where a general consensus (read: bias, yes) would at least prevent the major mud-flinging you'd see on neutral ground. I fully admit that I worded my own posts with a slight undercurrent of sarcasm (hint: it's an integral part of German humour ) to reflect the way our French friend worded his.

There probably isn't much fresh stuff to be added, but I still feel that on the whole, this was a fruitful and entertaining thread.

[PeterJ]

Fully agree @XTM,

BTW, Talking of German humour, Henning Wehn is one of my favourite comedians!

[XTM]

Well, it's going to be a little foray into off-topic territory, but since it was you who mentioned this Henning Wehn guy, I had to admit I don't know him. Not surprising, since according to a Wikipedia article I just had a look at, he's been UK-based for ages and only had limited fame in Germany on a local radio station that I never listened to.

You'll of course understand that you won't get the 100% real deal with this guy, but an anglicized version of German humour adapted to English. But it's fine, there's little point in watching comedy in a language one doesn't know. Too many nuances, word plays, local knowledge that you'd only gather from having been born there or living there for ages - a lot of jokes will go over one's head.
I've tried introducing WOS members to some of our best comedians/cabaretists etc. by pointing to videos with excellent English subtitles that even explain some of the jokes, but to no avail. Fair enough, I can totally understand that people won't be interested, I'm guilty of this myself.

Now this mirrors the WOS thread that went from off-topic to old computers

[AndyC]

maybe because of the possibility it could attract CPC users who might register to argue? I don't mean reasonable ones like AndyC of course, whose input is always great.

Nah, the CPC community is far too busy arguing amongst themselves to worry about arguing too much with everyone else. Legendarily so.

[Ralf]

maybe because of the possibility it could attract CPC users who might register to argue?

Maybe I don't want them to come here and argue

Check their biggest forum:

najlepszy hosting zdjęć

Aren't they like some cocky teenagers looking for a fight?

[Waldroid]

I think that pineapple is awesome on Hawaiian pizza, but slightly less good on pepperoni pizza.

[Alessandro]

Pizza with pineapple is considered blasphemy here. I had the misfortune of experiencing it myself at a self-service eatery in Finland. I mistook the little yellow bits for potatoes. I can say it was one of the most disgusting things I ate during my travels abroad, second only to marmite (the horror, the horror).

On the other hand, I ate natto (fermented soy beans) in Kyoto for breakfast during my trip to Japan. I read that Westerners tend to consider it appalling, but I found it quite pleasant; it vaguely reminded me of gorgonzola, which I like a lot - although we are not used to eat gorgonzola, or any other cheese for that matter, for breakfast here.

I guess there is little more to add about the original topic, then

[Lee Bee]

I don't see this thread as in any way inflammatory. XTM simply wanted to know our response to the views of this vocal individual who persistently derides the Speccy as inferior to the CPC, and does so with a smug air of objective certainty. Instead of directly engaging with this man, XTM is simply asking if there could be any truth to his claims. It's an interesting issue worthy of discussion.

[Vampyre]

Fully agree @XTM,

BTW, Talking of German humour, Henning Wehn is one of my favourite comedians!

Went to see him not long after lock-down finished and loads of comedians were testing out their new material before embarking on a main tour, by doing a mini one.

Henning was excellent.

[blucey]

Fully agree @XTM,

BTW, Talking of German humour, Henning Wehn is one of my favourite comedians!

I saw him live once and he did a routine about fathers using their dead kids to get to meet the captain of the football team they support. He'd get cancelled off the planet for that now but it was the funniest routine he's done.

As for the CPC. Not an upgrade. Speccy is LORD.

[Lethargeek]

I think that's a weird argument, considering the Speccy palette. Although I'd say again that judging the graphics by looking at pin sharp modern LCD displays does them a disservice. An old school CTM monitor is a lot more forgiving and blends the colours somewhat which helps.

Although why some programmers insisted on making fonts with stripey colours I'll never entirely understand.

nothing weird and not about sharpness at all

spectrum bright levels differ by about 20-25% (less for darker colours)
cpc lowest bright looks like 50% or even less than the next bright level, that's way too much
so brighter spots look detached from the rest of the sprite/letter

this is especially uncomfortable to look at with multicoloured low-res fonts
at first glance, there's just a bunch of scattered shining pixels, not immediately readable

[animaal]

The CPC was released way after the Spectrum, and had multiple graphics modes. Imagine if one of those modes could replicate the graphics memory of a Spectrum. I.e. 256x192 (with the same weird layout of the Spectrum graphics memory) followed by an attribute area.

Being Z80-based, the CPC was always going to receive Speccy ports. And those would always be sluggish, because ported Speccy graphics require more byte-moving on a CPC than on a real Spectrum. But if the Amstrad had a graphics mode that matched the Spectrum, then Spectrum ports would probably be easier to develop, and perform similarly to a real Spectrum.

I guess an argument could be made that this would only encourage Spectrum ports and disincentivise new natively-CPC games. But with the benefit of hindsight, not that many CPC games seemed to make really good use of the CPC hardware anyway (audio aside).

IMO.

[AndyC]

spectrum bright levels differ by about 20-25% (less for darker colours)
cpc lowest bright looks like 50% or even less than the next bright level, that's way too much
so brighter spots look detached from the rest of the sprite/letter

Well there are 27 colours rather than 16, so yes the brightness levels between some are further apart than they would be on the Speccy, but there are also more intermediate shades that can be used.

But I still think a lot of it comes down to emulation accuracy. The bright colours aren't quite that bright on a real monitor and bright and dark colours near each other bleed into each other in a way that doesn't happen in emulations. You have to see it on a real CTM to give an accurate judgement.

Being Z80-based, the CPC was always going to receive Speccy ports. And those would always be sluggish, because ported Speccy graphics require more byte-moving on a CPC than on a real Spectrum. But if the Amstrad had a graphics mode that matched the Spectrum, then Spectrum ports would probably be easier to develop, and perform similarly to a real Spectrum.

Most of the sluggishness comes from doing the port in a quick and dirty way, keeping all the data in a format optimised for the Spectrum rather than processing it into a suitable format for the CPC. Done properly the memory size kind of balances out because you don't need separate masks and you don't need as much pre-shifted graphics (or time spent shifting)

I guess an argument could be made that this would only encourage Spectrum ports and disincentivise new natively-CPC games. But with the benefit of hindsight, not that many CPC games seemed to make really good use of the CPC hardware anyway (audio aside).

I thinks that's probably overstated. There are a lot of very lazy ports, but the vast majority of software did use the Amstrad better. It's not like, for example, the MSX where almost every title is identical to the Spectrum but running slower. It was the "third place" machine, but it did hang around for as long as the Speccy (possibly slightly longer, since AA outlasted YS) and that didn't happen just by it just having Speccy ports.

[PeterJ]

@AndyC,

It's probably due to emulation, but the border on CPC games always seems huge. Was that similar on real hardware (I think I mentioned that I did own a CPC briefly, but can't remember the border size).

There are modern add-ons (or slot in ROMs) for the BBC Micro (VideoNuLA), and Dragon 32/64 (SuperSprite FM+) which enhance the colour range at higher resolutions. Do you know of anything similar for the Amstrad CPC range?

If Alan Sugar had made a hybrid machine with Locomotive BASIC (maybe on the +3), and Sinclair attribute style graphics, and 16 colours at 320 x 200 modes that would have been great and pretty close to the perfect 8bit. So I'm thinking the ability to load CPC and ZX software on the same machine, and have the best of both graphics solutions. As you said previously Andy, there needed to be compromise (I think it was you) due to the limitations of 8bit CPUs (although the SAM managed it). It would probably not have been a commercial success, but it's nice to dream!

Thanks

Peter

[AndyC]

@PeterJ

The borders are a little bigger than the Speccy from memory but not massive. Although a problem that often came up was developers reducing the screen width to 32 characters which obviously makes the borders even bigger still.

As to graphics improvements, the obvious thing is the Plus range, which up the number of colours to choose from 27 to 4096, as well as adding sprites and pixel resolution hardware scrolling (plus some other bits and pieces).

In more modern times, there are people who've added v9990 graphics cards from the MSX2. Personally, I consider it a bit too hacky to really count as normal CPC software doesn't use it and it has to be wired up to a separate display. At which point what you have is kind of almost an MSX that can run some MSX software if you hack it a bit... Each to there own I guess.

Not really anything else though, probably because the display layout is fairly flexible and so address generation has to be equally flexible and based off the CRTC counters. And you'd need to fit things in around the current memory read timings too which might be awkward for a display like the Speccy. Changing the Gate Array to add more interpretations of bytes wouldn't be impossible, but I'm not sure there is much you could do (and making a GA that was Plus compatible but fitted in a normal CPC would probably be wiser than doing something entirely different).

Personally I'd have given my right arm for a character based mode in the machine, especially if there had been some way of changing the MODE per character so you could mix high and low Res (like the C64 but less colour restricted). That would've reduced RAM usage far more than adding Spectrum attributes, but leant itself much more to the kind of tile based layout most games of the era were focused around. Although once you do that, sprites become more essential too.

Locomotive BASIC was very nice though, although I'd pinch a wealth of features from SAM Basic given the choice (not least he ability to use all the memory in the system).

There's always a compromise somewhere.

[1024MAK]

The Amstrad 464 plus and 6128 plus range expanded on the CPC. Andy will likely know the details. I don’t have either of those, so have not looked into it.

There are third party graphic expansion cards, but they are relatively rare and expensive. So I don’t have one.

Edited to say Andy posted while I was writing this…

Mark